Large format film

[marcmccalmont]

I'm thinking of getting into large format film as an upgrade to my Canon 5d for landscapes. To much movement in waves and clouds here in Hawaii to stitch a digital image together. What are your recommendations on equipment and format? I was thinking a 5x7 with 4x5 back and a 110mm lens for starters? Does 8x10 make sense? Oh 90% color, 10% B&W and a $3000 budget so mostly used equipment.
Thanks
Marc

[David A. Goldfarb]

There are people who shoot landscape with an 8x10" or larger in Hawai'i. When I tried it, I found there were a lot of situations I couldn't shoot conveniently because of the wind, but if you live there, you can always wait for a calm day. I think Christian Olivet on Maui has a 12x20".

My wife grew up in Honolulu, so we visit fairly regularly, and I usually take my Linhof Tech V 4x5", which handles most situations I encounter and stands up nicely to the wind. Robert Teague will probably chime in here, since he lives on O'ahu--he shoots a Toyo 4x5"--also a metal folding field camera. So if I have a recommendation for shooting landscapes in Hawai'i, mainly in color, it's for a 4x5" metal folding camera.

If you're on O'ahu, check out Imageworks Photo in Kaimuki. They sell sheet film and sometimes have some used LF gear for sale.

[steve simmons]

Before getting into large format may I suggest some reading

one of these books

Using the View Camera, User's Guide to the View Camera or Large Format Nature Photgraphy. Try your local library

There are several articles in the Free Articles section of the View Camera web site

www.viewcamera.com

that should be helpful


teve simmons

[Gene McCluney]

If you are going to shoot color primarily, there are good reasons for choosing 4x5. This is the size where there are the most choices left in color materials, also there are viable options for having prints made, whereas you are just about on your own these days if you shoot larger color materials, as you will probably have to scan them and print them yourself...unless your desire is to make color contact prints. A good 4x5 color neg, or transparency can make a wall sized print. These are my opinions, and I have LF cameras up to 11x14.

[scott_6029]

For color, I would go 4 x 5, scan and digitally print, and try Velvia 50 or 100 for landscapes....for B & W it's another story altogether (I own 4 x 5, 8 x 10 and 7 x 17). You can make very nice color prints from a transparency scanned. I have sone some 30 x 40's this way.

[Ron Marshall]

For color go with 4x5, more choices, cheaper, and unless you are planning huge enlargements no signifigant benefit.

A 5x7 camera with a 4x5 reducing back, such as a Canham woodfield 4x5, gives you the option of 5x7.

The 110mm is a wonderful lens on both 4x5 and 5x7.

[roteague]

I'm thinking of getting into large format film as an upgrade to my Canon 5d for landscapes. To much movement in waves and clouds here in Hawaii to stitch a digital image together. What are your recommendations on equipment and format? I was thinking a 5x7 with 4x5 back and a 110mm lens for starters? Does 8x10 make sense? Oh 90% color, 10% B&W and a $3000 budget so mostly used equipment.
Thanks
Marc

Where are you at Marc? I'm in Kaneohe.

David put it pretty well, shooting anything larger than 4x5 along the coast could be a bit problematic. In addition, there is a major shift in thinking, going from a small camera like you Canon to Large Format. I wouldn't jump into anything larger than 4x5 right away.

As for costs, you could probably put a system together for $3k. However, the 110 is a pricy lens, and you would need the center filter with it - add another $250. You may be better off going with a used LF camera and a 120mm or 135mm Schneider lens. Feel free to ask, or PM me.

David: are you coming back over here this summer? I may have to scope out some new spots if you do. :p

[David A. Goldfarb]

Robert--we'll probably make it out there. Lots of things are up in the air at the moment, so no concrete plans yet.

[KenM]

As for costs, you could probably put a system together for $3k. However, the 110 is a pricy lens, and you would need the center filter with it - add another $250.

The 110XL has a huge image circle, and I doubt if you would need a center filter shooting 4x5, even for chromes. I know with mine I don't notice any light falloff, but I only shoot B&W....

[Adam Kavalunas]

Can speak for shooting LF in coastal Hawaii, but I absolutely love 4x5 since switching over from 35mm about a year ago. I do mostly southwestern landscapes and I feel 4x5 is the perfect set up. Much lighter and cheaper than 8x10, yet still plenty of film area for 30x40" prints. You can easily put together a complete system for 3K. Heres my system, all lenses are used, camera was new.

Tachiharia 4x5 Woodfield-$600
Rodenstock Grandagon 75mm-$600
Rodenstock Sironar-N 135mm-$250
Caltar-N 180mm-$225
Fuji 240 A-$450
Nikkor 300M-$400

Add a couple film holders, focusing loupe, film, and your're still below your 3K. No need for high priced XL lenses, they just have more image circle which i doubt you'll need. Just get used Multicoated new"er" optics and have fun!!

[walter23]

I've only used 4x5 but I think it's the most sensible format for what you want to do. I'm not sure a 5x7 with a reducing back is the best idea though; 4x5 is significantly cheaper for a similar camera.

I have this setup, and it works great:

Shen Hao 4x5 wood field camera: $600
Wide angle bag bellows: $99
Caltar-II N 210mm f/5.6: $210
Caltar-II N 90mm f/6.8: $400
Toyo 3x loupe: $40
Holders: $65 for a new pair from badger graphic, plus $20 for a set of 5 used lisco holders from ebay
Meter: Sekonic L-558 demo model from a local store (canadian $489).
Lens wrench, lens wraps, extra lens board, cable release, etc: ~ $100
LowePro phototrekker AW II backpack: can$280 (a bad purchase for 35mm digital which was wasting space in the closet until I got my view camera, for which it is perfect).

Remember if you get the big image circle XL lenses (I'm not sure how that assumption came up, but maybe the only 110mm is a schneider XL?), you won't be able to use a lot of that circle on your field camera because of the movement range, and the lenses are pretty huge which could be an irritation in the field. My 210/5.6 has a 300mm image circle which is plenty - I can put the horizon near the bottom of the frame with front rise without a problem, and still have room for some tilts. These caltar-II N are identical to rodenstocks (made in the same factory, serial numbers in series with the rodenstock labelled ones) - the 90 is a grandagon-N and the 210 an apo-sironar-N. These are both great lenses available used on ebay for signficantly lower prices than equivalently performing lenses with Rodenstock or Schneider written on them. The Shen Hao is great because as inexpensive field cameras go it has a huge range of movements. Strictly speaking, shift isn't such an important movement for landscapes, but I find it very useful for fine-tuning composition after getting the tripod in roughly the right spot.

[Eric Leppanen]

I would also suggest shooting 4x5 for the reasons cited in the previous posts. Last year I tried shooting 8x10 on the Oregon coast, which proved very frustrating due to the high winds.

The Canham 5x7 wood field camera (which easily converts to 4x5 with a converter back) is extremely popular, but even when purchased used, this camera with an SS110XL lens will take up your entire $3K budget, leaving nothing for other lenses or accessories. Instead, I suggest buying a basic 4x5 camera, leaving money available for a good lens set.

For a 4x5 camera, I'd suggest either a Tachihara or Shen Hao. Of these two, the Shen Hao is heavier and might be more rigid.

Here are some ideas on 4x5 lenses: http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/kit.html and http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/future.htm

Here are also a couple recent threads of interest:

Dealing with wind when shooting LF: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=20467

LF color film: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=18728

Good luck!

[Brian Ellis]

"However, the 110 is a pricy lens, and you would need the center filter with it - add another $250."

I owned the 80mm ss xl and didn't need a center filter with it. I wouldn't think you'd need one with the 110.

[John O'Connell]

90% color = 4x5 Quickloads or Readyloads. Especially if you're just starting out.

I gave up shooting 8x10 color recently because of the hassles associated with it. Reciprocity, shutter speed, and the availability of developing locally finally did me in.

[Ron Marshall]

The 110XL has a huge image circle, and I doubt if you would need a center filter shooting 4x5, even for chromes. I know with mine I don't notice any light falloff, but I only shoot B&W....

I don't use mine either for 4x5, but might if I was using lots of front rise.

[khtwo]

Hello, I'm new. How often do you use Quickloads or Readyloads? Is the extra money (the holder and extra per sheet) worthwhile for them? Thanks!

[Gordon Moat]

Thought I should chime in on that last question. In only use Readyloads and Quickloads. The ease of use is tough to beat, unless someone else is loading film holders for you. The Fuji Quickload holders are tougher to find used, so paying $40 or more for one is not uncommon. Plenty of Kodak Readyload holders to choose from on the used market, and possible to sometimes get them at fairly low cost (except the newest version). One thing to be careful about with the Kodak Readyload holders is to be sure to get a version with the black pressure plate; those have the word Kodak in red lettering on the front, so they are easy enough to spot.

Other than Readyload/Quickload systems, I also use a Linhof Super Rollex 120 rollfilm back. This for me is for films that are not available in Quickload/Readyload, and as an instant cropping tool. In fact, if Ilford ever made HP5+ in Readyload/Quickload type of packets, I would be buying boxes of the stuff.

You might want to do a search through the LF Forum archives for Readyload and Quickload. There are many threads about these systems, and lots of useful information. The films and holders are sort of interchangeable, though if you have any problems it might mean disassembling the holder (tough).

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

[Peter von Gaza]

If you are just after higher resolution images, than what the Canon 5d provides, have you thought about using a medium format camera? I use both a 4x5 (modified Toho-FC Mini) and a Mamiya 7. Ignoring issues like camera movements I personally find that my Mamiya 7 can produce stunning digital prints up to 16x20. I sell quite a lot of framed 16x20 prints, about half from my 4x5 and half from my 6x7, and the only people that can tell the difference are other fellow sharpness fixated photographers. And most of the time they can't tell!! Of course if you want to print larger than 16x20 then 4x5 or larger is necessary. I'm different from a lot of other 4x5 photographers in that my Mamiya 7 is always in my pack. I have missed way to many photographs setting up my 4x5 only to see my dream image evaporate as I touch the shutter release. Now in quickly changing conditions the first thing I do is take a 6x7 photo and then set up the 4x5. I'm frequently just stunned at the sharpness and clarity that I get using my Mamiya 7 (the edge to edge sharpness that I get with my 80mm Mamiya 7 lens, at all apertures, except wide open, is just not possible with a 4x5 lens -IMO) . At the same time I just love the beauty of a 4x5 neg. It scans very easily and produces a 16x20 print with no effort. Using a 4x5 camera is fun and has a lot of "soul". And if your one of those landscape photographers that likes the pile of rocks in the near foreground and the mountains in the background to be in focus (gives me the willies!) then 4x5 with some simple movements is appropriate.

I'm digressing here. The point is that if all you are after is better resolution then I would suggest you look at a medium format camera. They are giving them away on eBay.

cheers,
Peter

[Matus Kalisky]

Hello,

maybe I owerlooked it, but nobady has mentioned that (and especially in the windy part of the world) you need a stable TRIPOD and HEAD. Depending how much you are willing to spend on it and/or how havy you would accept - you can thing of carbon Gitzos. For light 4x5 1227/1228 shold do (or the newer versions 1257/1258) or something more sturdy like 1325 or so. For large camera large tripod is needed. Carbon Gitzo will cost you ~ $500 - $600. For the head you may consider a pan-tilt head or a ballhead and depending on the model it amy take $100 - $300.

Concerning the rest - I took the Tachihara 4x5 road with Fujinon CMW 125/5.6 (nice general lens on the wider side) and Caltar II E 210/6.3 (and soon Osaka 400/8) and I am pretty satisfied. For the tripod I went with Benro copy of Gitzo 1227 as I could not afford Gitzo and for my light setup it is studry enough. If I would consider upgrade - I would go for 1325 or 1348. FOr the head I am currently using Magicball from novoflex, but I plan to get manfroto 410 geared head, as I find it difficult to level the camera properly - but this becomes issue only with macros, or achitecture, not really with landscapes.

Just something - if you plan to make contact prints, than consider 5x7 or event 8x10. I am about to start now and have realized, that 4x5 is still on the small side. But later you may add next camera ;) . Do not hurry.

good luck.

[eddie]

i use a 4x5 and 8x10. both wood field cameras. think about developing issues when you are making your decision. i think 5x7 film is getting hard to find....especially in color.

both 4x5, 8x10, and medium format gear are going for pretty cheap these days. depending on how fancy you want to get i think you can have them all for your budget! Rb67 pro s are about 350$
4x5 monorails are around 250$
8x10 old wood field cameras are about 250$-400$
so you are looking at about $1000. that leaves you quite a bit left over (well if you get that real expensive lens maybe not) for a few lenses, film holders, and other things. also consider the old barrel lenses.

sounds like you maybe able to have your cake and eat it. enjoy.

eddie

[Ted Harris]

First, I laud your choice to join the ranks of large format. Now to add some and reflect a bit on previous posts:

1) Why 5x7 with a 4x5 reducing back? Do you eventually intend to shoot 5x7 as well? If that is the case then, considering your price range, you should look hard at the Canham T57, the traditional Canham 57/45. You will find one used with a 4x5 back that will keep you close to in your price range and it will give you all the flexibility you need. If the answer is no, then considering theenvironment in which you are doing most of your shooting, get a solid, rigid 4x5. I strongly recommend a metal bodied field camera (e.g. Toyo AX/AII, Horseman FA/HD, Wista SP/VX) any of which can be found in your price range and all of which will serve you well. Personal preferences here would be the Toyo AX for your needs.

2) Absolutely nothing wrong with the Super Symmar XL 110 lens. From my perspective an excellent choice as a first/single lens for landscape work. I have owned one since they were first announced and it was andremains oneof my most used lenses. Even used it is going to push your budget though. With the exchange rate as it is you are going to be hard pressed to find one for under 900 (push but not destroy the budget). As for the center filter ... I cannot remember the last time I used a center filter with this lens and, yes, I do own a center filtere and looking carefully at landscape chromes I see no falloff.

3) 5x7 color film is ot available in as many 'flavors' as 4x5 but the choice is still very large. Unfortunately it is somewhat inconvenient to get. I shoot most of my color in the metric sized 13x18 which requires its ownset of holders. I do this because 13x18 film from Eurpoe is a bit less expensive and a bit easier to get than 5x7 chrome. You can get 5x7 Fuji direct from Japan but the price is steep.

4) Readyloads and Quickloads are the only film I would even think of shooting in a sandy shore environment. Basically it gives you a sealed, dust free, dirt free package and you will appreciate that later when processing the film.

5) I wouldn't even consider 8x10 of 90% of my shooting was going to be chrome and my client didn't demand it. You might feel differently but you really should get comfortable with 4x5 first, IMO.

[Adam Kavalunas]

I'm biased towards quickloads, only because that all i've ever shot with. I can get velvia 50 quickloads, for sometimes under $2.50/sheet, thats only about $.50 more that normal sheet film. I only need 1 holder, most sheet film users have 10-20 holders which cost much more than my 1. Plus, I can carry 20 shots for an all day hike at only a fraction of the weight. Nothing but plusses if you ask me.

[Scott Davis]

There is another 110mm lens option nobody mentions. It is only available used, so it may take a bit of hunting to find one, but the 4 3/8" Goerz Am.Opt. W.A. Dagor is a FANTASTIC little lens. F8 max, so not as bright as the Schneider. It comes in a very compact Rapax shutter, such that I can leave it installed on my Shen Hao when I close the body, unreversed. I've shot paying architecture jobs with it (a story for Metropolitan Home magazine), and it was terrific with color transparency materials (Fuji Provia 100 I believe). Best of all, you should be able to find one for less than $250, and it will cover 5x7 with movement.

[Chris Strobel]

I live on the coast of Southern California where we have our share of wind just like the Islands.For 4x5 I use a Shen-Hao on a Bogen 3047 head and 3221 legs.For 8x10 its a black Calumet C1 on a Ries A100-2 tripod.I find the 8x10 rig more stable in the wind than my 4x5 rig despite the 8x10's larger sail area.So if you go 4x5 for shooting down on the beach, don't skimp on the tripod and head like I did :)

[stompyq]

First, I laud your choice to join the ranks of large format. Now to add some and reflect a bit on previous posts:


4) Readyloads and Quickloads are the only film I would even think of shooting in a sandy shore environment. Basically it gives you a sealed, dust free, dirt free package and you will appreciate that later when processing the film.
IMO.

I don't understand why you say that Ted. Meaning that dust and sand gets in to the film? or just settles on the surface of the holder and generally clogs everything? I'd imagine that the rest of the gear would also be severly impacted under such conditions and you'll need to take precautions against dust etc. which would offset the reason to use quickloads to start with.

[Ted Harris]

I say it because, when working in harsh conditions (or anywhere for that matter) anythingyou can do to minimize issues is worth doing. Since a Quickload or Readyolad is factory sealed so to speak you eliminate any dust issues when loading film. I am thinking more of olading the film than the onsite environment but I do believe you have less of a chance of any sand or dust getting inside the QL or RL packet than you doof same gettign inside a regular filmholder. Probably not as important a reason as the film loading but one to consider nonetheless.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I use Grafmatics in Hawai'i, which would be really sensitive to dust and sand issues, and I somehow manage not to get sand in them most of the time, and I don't put them in Ziploc bags or anything unusual. I reload at home in a bathroom or a closet, not in the field.

Come to think of it, I don't find myself shooting at sandy beaches in Hawai'i really that often, since those tend to be where the tourists are. Once I tried shooting on a hot windy day at Papohaku Beach on Moloka'i (there's nothing like hot blowing sand stinging the flesh to keep the tourists away), and there was a fair amount of blowing sand there, but most locations aren't like this.

That said, if you shoot color slide (I shoot mostly B&W), the option of using Quickloads is a plus.

[marcmccalmont]

Thanks for all of your input it will take me a while to digest all of it (just returned from Volcano national park Hawaii)
Marc

[marcmccalmont]

I'm on the Big Island in Hawi. been here 5 years now and plan a lot of our outings around photography just returned from Volcano.
Marc