LF materials strategic reserve?

[John Kasaian]

With J and C temporarily out of action, the loss of Agfa and Forte, and past supply interruptions by Ilford (when they went through reorganization) and Kodak (when they moved ops into that "dust free" building) it seems like having a bit of something in the deep freeze to tide one over in case the supply lines are interrupted isn't too bad of an idea. This in turn brings up the question of how much and what to set aside? How much effort, time and space to invest? Which formats are you willing to support in this scenario?

Is having say a month's (or two) worth of film and paper enough? Should you invest in stocking up on your 'standard' emulsions as the way to go or maybe certain emulsions keep better than others over the long haul, such as AZO, APHS or Plus X Aerecon? Do you take advantages of 'power buys' (like Cosmo Kramer and "Beefaroni") on stuff that comes up on sale (J and C had some great deals in the past, and currently Freestyle has quite a deal on 4x5 Ilford HP-5+ short dated film)

Whats your plan? Yeah, I know you can always use your cell phone but what I'm interested in is LF materials;)

[Terence McDonagh]

In addition to the FP4 and HP5 I use in 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 I have a "stash" of the following that I don't really touch, or that I cycle through with fresh film:

100 sheets FP4 4x5
500 sheets of HP5 4x5
100 sheets of Ilford Ortho 4x5
300 sheets of Kodalith 4x5
200 Sheets of Ektapan 4x5
50 sheets of Tech Pan 4x5
100 Sheets J&C ortho 4x5
50 Sheets Maco IR 4x5
25 Sheets Maco Aura IR 4x5
75 sheets Adox 25 4x5

25 Sheets HP5 5x7
100 sheets of 160NC 5x7
100 sheets of Efke PL50 5x7

25 sheets HP5 8x10
50 sheets of Tech Pan 8x10 (last ones sold by B&H)
100 sheets of Kodalith 8x10
50 sheets of Efke PL50 8x10
100 sheets J&C Classic 100 8x10

75 sheets FP4 8x20

125' of 9.5" Plus-X aero

I have slowly been adding to this hoard as money allows. I want to be able to support a rate of 50-75 4x5 shots, 50 5x7 shots and 25 8x10 shots a year for ten years.

I've also built up a 70mm hoard of:
1800' of various Aerographic films
600' of Tech Pan
125' of Kodak IR

[roteague]

Fortunately, I don't have that much of a problem with suppliers. I generally buy my film from Calumet, but will also buy from B&H, Adorama or any one of a dozen or so others suppliers. I'll keep a box or two on hand, rarely more. As great a guy as John at J&C, I never bought much from him, because he didn't carry the film I like.

[Kirk Gittings]

Also this dismal list of companies gone or going should include companies like Calumet who are refocusing their efforts on the amateur DSLR market.

[Ralph Barker]

I have a small (13 cubic feet) chest-style freezer devoted to film and paper. It's not big enough to be classified as "strategic" - more like "tactical". ;)

[roteague]

Also this dismal list of companies gone or going should include companies like Calumet who are refocusing their efforts on the amateur DSLR market.

I don't know, Calumet is one of the companies behind the Silver Conference in Pasadena in March. I think they are committed to film, but they also have to react to the market to stay in business. FWIW, I just ordered some Velvia QuickLoads and Provia 400F from them.

This is something that we, as film photographers, are going to have to be aware of, and plan for. Just look at Fuji's example, they announced last year at PMA a new Provia 400X, to be shipping by last fall; it still isn't available. I'm sure we are all aware that Fuji is commmitted to film, but there are realities to what they and others can do.

[reellis67]

The problem I see with stockpiling is that it creates waves of demand rather than a more regular flow of purchases. Some of these companies are working from one quarter to the next and if one quarter they get a large order and then the next three they get nothing, it could tip the scales and cause an early shutdown of supply. Sure, I know that there are a lot of people buying, but it could happen that a number of people react to a rumor, buy a large reserve, and then the following dearth of sales precipitates that demise.

I also think that it could potntialy cause prices to go up as product either runs short and causes the need for unexpected production runs, or causes product to sit on the shelves for long periods of time. Again, it may be unlikely, but it is possible givent the right circumstances.

One last thing that comes to mind is when somone else picks up a discontinued product, say Rodinal, and a large number of people stockpiled a lifetime supply of it. Now they spend money to make it because they think that there is a huge demand, but no one buys it because everyone has enough to last forever in their closet or basement. The company then says, "Damn, that was a mistake. Look how much we lost on that" and stops production again.

I'm not saying any of these *will* happen, but I am saying that stockpiling *could* cause them to happen...

- Randy

[Terence McDonagh]

Randy, to an extent I agree. What I've been doing is ordering 25% more than I think I need to act as a hedge against fluctuations. If worse comes to worst I want a solid six month hedge against any discontinuations. I am still buying film regularly and turning over my "stash", keeping the freshest film.

[Turner Reich]

I would rather be a current buyer that doesn't have to stockpile materials but the marketing of photo materials require that I do otherwise. I am getting ready to buy several years worth of paper and have already done that with film. Forget JandC and anyone else for dependability because it just isn't going to happen. That's the market and that's the trend.

[khtwo]

Hey, do you consider only the film stock? How about the development?

[Terence McDonagh]

Hey, do you consider only the film stock? How about the development?

With the exception of fixer, development chemicals are easy to come by. Unfortunately, fixer does not store well.

[roteague]

With the exception of fixer, development chemicals are easy to come by. Unfortunately, fixer does not store well.

Not necessarily. Have you tried to buy any E6 kits lately?

[Salty]

Not necessarily. Have you tried to buy any E6 kits lately?


Freestyle has the Arista E 6 kit. It's a pretty simple kit and I get good results.

[John Kasaian]

Having enough materials on hand is an issue everyone who relies on mail order supplies has to address. When some unforseen event creates a snafu, having a little extra to get by isn't going to upset world economics that I can see. In fact, because of the volitility of the LF market I spend more time experimenting with different emulsions and papers than ever before----having a favorite paper or film "shot out" from under tends to influence my curiousity. Should a major player discontinue a "fave' I can POR with whatever has been keeping the Stouffer's frozen lasagne company. The calamity created by Forte's demise or J and C going off line is regrettable, but its not going to cause me to throw in the towel either. The issue is one of how to set aside a "stash"---some of my thoughts are:

1. Instead of ordering one box of film or paper, order two (or three) and reorder when the first box has been finished.
2. Learn to appreciate one of the less costly emulsions---perhaps the "house brand" at Freestyle, J and C, or Photo Warehouse and lay aside 50 or 100 sheets of the stuff to augment your "standard" emulsion. It takes up little room in the freezer and hey, you don't have to feed it!
3. Diversify---make it a point to have a faster (or slower...or ortho) emulsion on hand. You might not shoot a lot of the stuff but if the stage from Dodge City dosen't deliver, at least you've got something to shoot.
4. If short dated film is available at a discount, take advantage of the deal. Either shoot it first and save the fresh stuff for later, or save it for "just in case."

Or maybe try a lttle of all four?

What do you suggest?

[Ed K.]

Oh my - I had assumed that J&C would be there for my next order, having already stockpiled a bit. Supplies running low on some favorites.

I wonder if a collaborative could be created to distribute from a well-kept hoard and also to make custom purchases?

Unfortunately, many companies are chasing the low end, but not doing enough to encourage the higher end of film/traditional in their marketing outreach. We need somebody to create the "American Chopper" series of large format on television. That took some guys who couldn't even build their own engines and launched them into a good sized operation. Television is powerful stuff, as is nostalgia. There must be some angle, somewhere!

Meanwhile, I am learning to coat glass much better lately...

[Capocheny]

I think it's always wise to have an adequate stock of your favorite films on hand. The problem for me is that it gets in the way of food and other items destined for the freezer and the wife starts making little comments! :)

So, a small freezer is on the agenda in the next short while. In the meantime, our big freezer contains enough film to last me for about a year... depending on how often I get out to shoot.

Cheers

[PViapiano]

My wife made some comments today, too!

She wants her vegetable drawer back...!

[Capocheny]

My wife made some comments today, too!

She wants her vegetable drawer back...!

Hi PV...

:) Two peas in a pod! My unfrozen films reside in the vegetable crisper too! :)

Cheers

[Stephen Willard]

I have been investigating stockpiling a lifetime supply of film, but have not acted on it yet. I shoot Portra VC 160 color negative film. Here is what I may do.

1. Purchase a lifetime supply a store in it a dedicated chest freezer.

2. Warp all film in lead foil. This will protect the film from fogging caused by gamma radiation in the air. There are companies that sell lead foil on the internet. You can search for it on google.

3. Collect formulas for developer, bleach, fixer, and stabilizer so that I can mix my own chemicals.

I have talked with Kodak about this, and they said the film would be fine indefinitely when stored as I have noted. My intent is to stock the film and rotate through it to keep it fresh so if it should happen the I am ready. Otherwise, even after I stock my film I still continue to purchase film on regular basis as I always do with little impact on the market.

If everyone stocked a lifetime supply in this manner, then the additional stock purchases of film would have a very beneficial impact on the market.

Oh buy the way, sales for LF film has been steadily growing for the past three years now, so I do not think you have much to worry about. There is still a healthy market out there for film. However, I cannot tell you if the growth is from color, b&w, or both.

I also suspect that the digital revolution may actually be good for the LF community. In general, I would say LF photography is an old man's sport. Lots of retired engineers do LF photography. However, recently I have been bumping into a lot of young people using LF cameras. Last fall every LF photographer I ran into was under 30 years of age. All of them migrated from a DSLR. I suspect digital has made the hobby of photography more accessible then ever before, and some of the more serious amateurs are moving from digital to the more challenging and prestigious format of LF photography. Everyone is doing digital, but only special and talented artist engage in the discipline of LF photography, so the story goes. Being a LF photographer is something that many aspire to. It sets you apart from everyone else. Anyone can do digital with the smart cameras and smart software that is out there, but not everyone can do LF photography. Being a LF photographer is a big market differentiator. Its kind of like those who fly planes and those who fly fighter jets. Two different breeds pf pilots. Two different breeds of photographers.

I strongly believe that there will be notable spin off from the DSLR to LF cameras, and this will or is already contributing to the growth in sales of LF film and possible LF cameras. I suspect some will do b&w, but most will engage in color and then scan there film to digital. In any case, sales are growing for film for sure, but I am not as sure about LF cameras. I have never seen an industry wide report for LF camera sales. Perhaps someone can comment on this. I know that Wisner went under, but I believe that had to do more from poor management, rather than poor sales.

[Ed K.]

Stephen - keep talkin' - maybe Kodak could wise up and appoint you the sales manager for LF products!

Just looking at the slim pickin's in LF lenses right now (other than the middle of the pack) on the used market should be some indicator that LF is very popular right now. Indeed, for those who don't have 40-60K for a digital Hassey setup, or those who wish to make even larger prints with great detail in them, LF makes a lot of sense provided one has time to deal with it. DSLR cameras have generated countless shots begging for a larger print with more detail - many, including me, have a long list of places to revisit with a larger camera.

But the sheer time it takes to deal with all of it, from sourcing pieces of one's kit to now, just getting filim, can be daunting. Pieces are scattered to the wind, and one must collect them back into working kits, working recipes, and reliable formulae.

But a "lifetime" supply of film? What does that look like? I thought 500 sheets of Efke 25 would last me longer than I'd have occasion to use the stuff. As it turns out, it's taken 400 sheets just to get to really know the potential of the stuff for me. Similar notions on Tmax and Acros. But then, I have an extra case of Velvia 100 that I've yet to crack open, as the time of year and situations have not inspired opening that "private reserve". For me, a "lifetime" reserve might be a modest 30-50 thousand bucks worth, unless I decide I *really* like it. Hmmm, wait a minute, in 8 years, the new Fotoman 2 gigapixel ultra dynamic technical camera will only be 6k Euros (dollars will be an irrelevant currency by then) - then what to do with all that film?

It's a difficult business decision to invest so much cash, or worse, borrow it, when a good digital back is chargable as a rental on many jobs if one owns it. Who can predict the future? Is it worth tying up that kind of money? Also, power is going up like crazy in some areas (like mine) - the fridge is not free. But, film prices are really shooting up. Nearly 200 smackers for 50 sheets of TMax, plus shipping and tax.

I think that there is a certain LF fad right now. Many of the newcomers will find the endless nickels and dimes add up fast, and that space for darkrooms and so on is more scarce / expensive as time goes on. There will probably be a bit of a down adjustment in a few years. It could be the bump in the baby boomer garden hose, even though there are a lot of young shooters out there.

Pure hobby use? What could be better than LF!!!! But how many people can afford it as only a hobby? As short term interest rates climb, we'll find out how many really can afford it.

For me, it's not worth the "all at once" outlay and resulting opportunity loss. So it's really going to be a great dance with it as long as it lasts. Perhaps a 3-5 year cache with some restraint in using it is the way.

But Stephan - keep talking! You sold me!

[Ed Richards]

While a lifetime cache may be way to ambitious - plus, who knows what new film we might like to switch to - this thread has made me think about at least a one year cache. This could tide one over during a factory shut down due to fire or the like, or provide breathing room while you learned a new film to replace the one you understood.

Something to consider if you do this - physically arrange them in the freezer to facilitate first in, first out, inventory. Maybe line the boxes up on edge so you can put new film in at one end and take film from the other. If you stack them, it is easy to miss the boxes on the bottom.

[Terence McDonagh]

John K, your "4 Step Plan" is basically what I have been doing. Being a low volume amateur, it's easier to build up a strategic reserve. I probably shoot in a year what some of the folks here shoot in a week or two.

Stephen W, I'm curious where the data is that LF use is increasing. While the amateur market is increasing, the pro's who used film literally by the pallet are dwindling. Everything I've read from Ilford and Kodak seems to say the LF has largely declined and stabilized at a much reduced level. As little as 5 years ago Kodak offered more than twice as many emulsions in 8x10, and they were readily available. Now you have to hunt for what remains.

Roteague, you are right about color chemical availability. I pretty much only shoot B&W and often forget color LF still exists beyond my small stash of 5x7 160NC.

To all, you MUST stop referring to the "vegetable drawer" and start referring to it as the "film drawer". It is a slow process, but eventually the significant (or insignificant) other will slowly forget it ever held vegetables. Remind them that the lowered humidity was meant for optimal film storage, not keeping lettuce crispy.

[Stephen Willard]

I have talked to a number of technicians at Kodak (not sales people) and all of them said sales were up for LF film across the board. I also read a report somewhere that also showed that LF film sales were increasing, but I cannot remember where. I THINK it was a link from this site to the Kodak report. I wish I saved it, but I did not. Perhaps someone knows where that is?

I have not noticed the selections of film dwindling at Kodak for LF except they no longer sell 5x7 Portra NC 160, but I have not been watching very closely either. I only shoot Portra VC 160 in 4x5, 4x10, and 5x7. In the latter two cases, I cut the film from 8x10 sheets.

I suspect that Kodak is extremely sensitive to cutting cost in any area of film that is less profitable and put their money in areas where they are making money. They cannot afford not to, given the market conditions. Hence, dropping 5x7 and then announcing the introduction of a new version of Portra 160 VC film. This introduction tells me that they are still investing in R&D for film.

As a rule, I only shoot two frames per composition, unless I believe it is something spectacular, then I will shoot four frames. I use the Zone system for exposing my color film and always get it right from my initial meter readings. I shoot about 100 to 150 frames per year over a period of 2-3 months in the back country of Colorado. Over the years I have developed a very good sense of what will work and what will not work. My waste now is very low. I do allocate 20% percent of my film for taking high-risk shots for experimenting with new ways of photographing my subject. My yields are much lower with these type of shots, but it is the only way I can grow. However, I do manage experimentation in order control waste. LF film is not cheap. Based on this level of usage, I estimated around 3000 frames of film which will require I stockpile around 150 boxes (20 frames per 8x10 box of 10) at a price of $70.00 for a total of $10,500 dollars. I suspect if I bought that much film I could bargain a good deal directly from Kodak at a much cheaper price.

I intend to prototype my first try at mixing my own chemicals this fall. If I am successful, then I will wait for the introduction of the new Portra VC film. At that point I will make a decision whether to stockpile depending on film sales and other things that are going on in the market. Right now I am not concerned.

Some of you may think that is a lot of money and that new and better films may be introduced over the years. Keep in mind that the film industry is a mature technology, and I do not believe you will see any major break throughs over the years to come.

Some of you may think you should use that money to buy a digital back for your camera. The backs for LF cameras are not very functional in field, and you must ask yourselves will the back you buy today be supported 15 years from now. I think not. In fact, I do not believe it will be supported 5 years from now given the track record of the high tech industry.

I would like to leave you with this final thought:

Has the gun eliminated the bow?
Has the airplane eliminated the hot air balloon?
Has the rototiller replaced the spade?
Has the power lawn mower eliminated the hand mower?
Has email eliminated snail mail?
Has the cell phone replaced the house phone?
Has the Palm Pilot replaced day planers?
Has the stapler replaced paperclips?
Has the cloths dryer eliminated cloths pins?
Has the power boat replaced the canoe or sail boat?
Has bottled compressed air replace the dust brush?
Has the gun scope replaced open sights?
Has paint sprayers eliminated paint brushes?
Has the vacuum cleaner eliminated the broom?
Has the computer eliminated filing cabinets?
Has the automatic transmission replaced the standard transmission?
Has online billing replaced snail mail billing?
Has online banking replaced the bank?
Has plastic replaced paper money?
Has metal studs replaced wood studs?
Has the flat screen TV replaced the TV tube?
Has the iPod replaced the stereo system?
Has the pen replaced the pencil?
Has the computer printer replaced the pen?
Has DVDs replaced books?
Has online classes replaced the class room?
Has the light bulb eliminated oil lamps?
Has the electric stove eliminated gas stoves?
Has nonstick pots and pans replaced cast iron pots and pans?
Has online ecards replaced paper cards?
Has contacts eliminated glasses?
Has the digital watch replaced the analog watch?
Has the GPS eliminated the compass?
Has the gun eliminated the knife?
Has the chain saw eliminated the axe?
Has the power saw eliminated hand saw?
Has the power staple gun eliminated the nail and hammer?
Has the power plane eliminated the hand plane?
Has Velcro replaced the shoe lace?
Has the hair clipper replaced the hand scissors?
Has fast food replaced real food?
Has DVDs eliminated the movie theater?
Has synthetic fabrics eliminated cotton fabrics?
Has modern furnaces eliminated fireplaces or wood stoves?
Has FM replaced AM?
Has TV eliminated radio?
Has online news eliminated TV news or newspapers?
Has the snowboard eliminated the ski?
Has the alpine ski eliminated the Nordic ski?
Has the snowmobile eliminated the snowshoe?
Has the supermarket eliminated the corner market?
Has the power toothbrush eliminated the hand toothbrush?
Has synthetic down replaced goose down?
Has the race car replaced the race horse?
Has the automobile eliminated the horse?
Has synthetic boots eliminated leather boots?
Has artificial bait eliminated the worm?
Has the kayak eliminated the inner tube?
Has the supermarket eliminated the vegetable garden?

In all cases noted above the answer is NO! The hot air balloon, the axe, the bow and arrow, and the cloths pin will most likely never go away, and I suspect film will not either. There will always be a significant group of people who have no camera and will go to Wal-Mart to buy a reusable film camera. And LF guys, I suspect will be around for a very long time as well.

[Terence McDonagh]

In your comparisons you will note that with few exceptions, the new technology has become the industry standard, while quality of the mass-market old technology has plummeted. While there are certainly high-end niche markets exist for things such as wood planes, what you will find in Home Depot for wood planes is abysmal at best and useless at worst. With quality wood planes costing hundreds of dollars, for all intents and purposes they are non-existant from a societal view. I deal with finish carpenters at work. With the exception of a few older foremen, they have never held an actual hand plane.

If this happens with film, and I believe it will, maybe 1/10 of current users would be able to afford new film. I would guess that ten years from now disposable 35mm cameras will be an anachronism and 20 years from now they'll be but a memory.

As for LF, we'll be okay for B&W for a few more years. But I've been paying a lot of attention to the folks coating plates over on apug.

In the last few years Kodak has discontinued EIR, Tech Pan, Ektapan, Kodalith, Verichrome Pan, Plus X and various interneg films in LF. And I probably missed some others.

The sky is not falling, but it's certainly in disrepair.

[GSX4]

Niche Markets and specialty stores are the key. Like everything, you can be a lemming and follow the masses and buy generic items. Using the hand planes analogy.. If I wanted a high end hand made plane, I would visit Rockler, or Woodcraft to buy a swiss Kunzle, or marples plane. Or better yet, make one! These have always been traditional , yet expensive tools. I put modern photography into the same category, lemmings buy what the masses dictate, whether it's B+W, 110, 126, 120, 35mm APS, Disc, or digital. They realize that there are more traditional ways. That's where the niches are. Some folks eventually evolve and want to learn the more creative route, they spring for a more traditional camera. A specialty store is the usual route, or some talented individuals make their own traditional cameras. I believe there will be more niche companies starting up to fill in the gaps. Although they maybe not be as grand as the original and larger companies that mass produced them, they will be able to supply the die hards with enough product and consumables to be competitive and stay afloat.. Unless I am kidding myself. I am just thinking that this is not the end of the world as we know it. Change will continue to shape what products we can and can no longer use. We have to embrace that and work and change what we can to continue to be productive with the materials at our disposal. It may become more difficult to obtain certain products as choices becomre narrower just like everything in life, but I am not going to let it consume me to the extent of hoarding product. I'll try whatever product is out there to let me continue to work and relish the fact that I got to work with the materials that may no longer be available.

[BradS]

Also this dismal list of companies gone or going should include companies like Calumet who are refocusing their efforts on the amateur DSLR market.

By the looks of the film counter at the Calument store in San Francisco, I'd guess they're not quitting film anytime soon.

[QT Luong]

Anyone can do digital with the smart cameras and smart software that is out there, but not everyone can do LF photography.
Being a LF photographer is a big market differentiator.


Everyone (or almost) can do bad LF photography. Not everyone can do good digital photography.

I have yet to see what business edge LF brings me. True, from time to time I sell or license something that I wouldn't have if it wasn't LF, but those occasions are not what makes the bulk of my business. Do you have evidence to the contrary ?

[QT Luong]

The gun has eliminated the bow as an effective weapon. Sure, the bow can still be used for fun, but you don't see many of them in current conflicts. If you buy a lifetime reserve of color neg film, sure you will still be able to use it 20 years from now (if willing to process yourself), but are you sure you want to do so if at that point digital capture blows 2007's neg film away both in quality and convenience to the point that any 10-year old can produce a technically better image ?

[Rob_5419]

Everyone (or almost) can do bad LF photography. Not everyone can do good digital photography.

I have yet to see what business edge LF brings me. True, from time to time I sell or license something that I wouldn't have if it wasn't LF, but those occasions are not what makes the bulk of my business. Do you have evidence to the contrary ?

I think that's true for most of my professional working colleagues and myself although I've spent too long trying to deny it.

LF photography has become a minefield of interest by dedicated enthusiasts - no doubt that will prop up the LF market in years to come. Do digital photographers shoot worse than LF photographers? For some reason LF photographers can shoot the most mediocre of images and show a bizarre kind of satisfaction which no one else shares - I have loads of images like that ;)

It's aesthetic is different from digital imaging - perhaps I know what I'm looking for in LF photography, however whenever it comes to digital photography, it doesn't look like LF work, so that standard of comparison fails to be appeal to me.

Then again, digital doesn't look like anything I would want to achieve. Again, that standard of usefulness then doesn't appeal to me, because already I have an idea of what I am working for.

Thirdly, I see digital everywhere, saturating computer screens, glossy magazines. Yet again, its ubiquity only contributes to sensory overload, or the supersaturation of my finite senses, that I just don't care at the end of the day, what I'm seeing, because it's all too much.

Lastly, we're veering off topic - returning to John's question, do I have a strategy for LF? Perhaps: sell off everything for a full-plate camera and return to the collodion DIY process. Failing that, it will be sticking with my 5x4" Sinar/Silvestri combination and see how far 3000 sheets of APX100 will go before the last resort Tech Pan 2000 sheets and APX25 call it a day.

The only argument I can find for digital is the cost-efficiency: somehow, clients seem to like it. it works out cheaper for me; it's faster for them, even if in own opinion, the quality of work amounts to mediocrity.

[Robert Hughes]

The gun has eliminated the bow as an effective weapon. Sure, the bow can still be used for fun, but you don't see many of them in current conflicts.

Hmm. Place 2 combatants in a room, one with a gun, one with a bow & arrow. The winner is whoever shoots first, doesn't really matter which one. You'd think precision laser-guided ordinance would have displaced homemade car bombs by now, but the latter still seem to be very popular.

[Terence McDonagh]

You'd be surprised at the technology used in car bombs these days. More advanced than 99% of LF equipment, that's for sure. Explosively formed penetrators (an improved shaped charge warhead, that came into wide use in the 1990's), cell phones, frequency-hopping radio transmitters to overcome jamming, and the list goes on. It's not your father's car bomb . . .

[Rob_5419]

Hmm. Place 2 combatants in a room, one with a gun, one with a bow & arrow. The winner is whoever shoots first, doesn't really matter which one. You'd think precision laser-guided ordinance would have displaced homemade car bombs by now, but the latter still seem to be very popular.


I think you're missing the point. It doesn't matter how many people are shot dead, but you the essence of large format photography will still have eluded anyone who thinks in this way.

The metaphors [of competitive male rivalry; technological superiority and latest is best mentality] employed in these examples are contrary to the essence of large format photography which is - by and large - a creative endeavour. And perhaps even more of a solitary one.

It has no parallel with the technological approaches to destruction that you cipher.



You'd be surprised at the technology used in car bombs these days. More advanced than 99% of LF equipment, that's for sure. Explosively formed penetrators (an improved shaped charge warhead, that came into wide use in the 1990's), cell phones, frequency-hopping radio transmitters to overcome jamming, and the list goes on. It's not your father's car bomb . . .

Granted - any understanding that goes beyond your figure of speech also accepts that the same technological argument for 'processes advancing' are then irrelevant insofar as large format photography is concerned.

[Rob Landry]

Not necessarily. Have you tried to buy any E6 kits lately?

Your local photo shop/camera store should be able to order you the Kodak 5L kit. Whenever, I order mine, my dealer includes a kit in his Kodak order so I don't even have to pay shipping. Kodak has a new catalog number for this kit that your dealer may not be aware of, it is: 1077643.

[Stephen Willard]

To those who are obsessed with hording as I will become should the film market start to collapse:

Not only must you be able to properly stock pile film, but also you must be able to mix your own chemicals. Mixing here means not buying chemical kits that you buy at the store, but rather buying raw chemicals from a chemical house and mixing them from scratch. I use C41 color negative chemicals and have been acquiring formulas for C41. E6 is somewhat harder to mix, but its is doable. I do hope I never have to develop a strategic reserve, but I am laying the ground work should it be necessary.

Yes there are bad LF photographers, but....

Every discipline has bad practitioners such as software engineers, oil painters, sculptures, digital photographers, LF photographers and the list goes on. But every discipline also has its elite fringe practitioners as well. The true desk top geeks are linux people (which is a variant of UNIX) is one. The bow hunter who kills his quarry with a primitive weapon is another. The skier who chooses to skis the wild-backcountry slopes of Colorado dodging avalanches instead of the groomed-domestic ski slopes is yet another. LF photography is a variant and fringe of the digital revolution. The former being manual in every aspect while the latter being automated in every aspect.

The size of the fringe community is directly related the size of the main stream community for a discipline

As hunting grows or declines so will the size of the bow hunting community. As the number of home computers grow so will the size of the linux community. I believe this is also true for the LF community as the digital revolution grows. The number of young people I saw last fall with a LF cameras, I believe, is scant evidence of this axiom. I was told in 1998 the Denver Art Institute converted their photography program to digital and closed all of their darkrooms. In 2004 they reopened two darkrooms for a photography program called "alternative processes" with LF cameras included. This "alternative process" is where the fringe will reside. It is a small reflection which is echoed in the increase sales of LF film, and the young LF photographers I saw last fall.

Last spring in June of 2006 I retired as a high-end wedding photographer. The last wedding I photographed was of a young couple in their mid 20s. They were a very handsome couple and both were very bright and articulate. But to my pleasant surprise, both the bride and groom were LF photographers. I could not have asked for a better final wedding to photograph.

So in summary, I guess of am very optimistic about the future of both film and LF photography, but I also have a tested strategic reserve plan in place should my predictions not hold.:)

[Chris Strobel]

[QUOTE=roteague;216790]I don't know, Calumet is one of the companies behind the Silver Conference in Pasadena in March. I think they are committed to film, but they also have to react to the market to stay in business. FWIW, I just ordered some Velvia QuickLoads and Provia 400F from them.

Maybe for Calumet online, but my local Calumet treats me like a second class citizen when I walk in there.I have had several heated debates with them this last year, and now will only buy online, and thats only for things that only they sell like the C1 GG I recently broke.I find my local Samy's much more LF friendly, but all my film lately has been from Freestyle, B&H, or Badger.

[John Kasaian]

I've been thinking about this and appreciate all the input. As a hobby-ist I'm thinking that I'd like to have one years worth of film and paper in the freezer, plus whatever special materials I'll need that will be unique to any foreseeable projects (currently 5x7 HP-5+ and 16x20 APHS) plus the odds and ends I've already collected for experimenting but never got around to using yet (a box of PL-25 and a roll of some strange Kodak LF film made for for shooting oil well fires---they're right behind the eskimo pies---comes to mind) For contact paper my AZO stash is running low so I need to settle down with a replacement before too long. I'm considering Foma N-111 but my only source of the stuff is J and C (and thats the reason for this post in the first place!) I do have 275 sheets of Arista graded classic fb---Galerie---left over from "The Great Ilford Panic" awhile back and now chillin' next to the Birdseye, so I'm not exactly completely unprepared for temporary glitches in supply routes.

Cheers!

[James Phillips]

The gun has eliminated the bow as an effective weapon. Sure, the bow can still be used for fun, but you don't see many of them in current conflicts. If you buy a lifetime reserve of color neg film, sure you will still be able to use it 20 years from now (if willing to process yourself), but are you sure you want to do so if at that point digital capture blows 2007's neg film away both in quality and convenience to the point that any 10-year old can produce a technically better image ?

Interesting viewpoint.... but...yes, I would.

I guess some of us enjoy the process as much as the result. It is the same with woodworking with hand tools or building a "cedar strip canoe" by hand.

Same as using my two feet to walk miles up a mountain instead of using a quad.

I guess I'm just a simple man who seems to enjoy the journey (perhaps better stated as the process here) as much if not more than the final result.

As an aside, I own both guns and bows (compound, recurve and long bow) and by far I enjoy using the bow much more than shooting the guns.

I appreciate your viewpoint and respect the comparsion, however I will still do the work myself...thanks.

Good light,

James

[Al D]

The gun has eliminated the bow as an effective weapon. Sure, the bow can still be used for fun, but you don't see many of them in current conflicts. If you buy a lifetime reserve of color neg film, sure you will still be able to use it 20 years from now (if willing to process yourself), but are you sure you want to do so if at that point digital capture blows 2007's neg film away both in quality and convenience to the point that any 10-year old can produce a technically better image ?

All the aforementioned analogies (bow & arrow vs gun, leather boots vs. vinyl boots, etc.) are terribly flawed in that the intellectual, financial, and industrial capitalizations required to procued the earlier-generation goods absolutely pales in comparison to that required to produce analog films and papers at anywhere near the present-day quality.

I'm not sure people have a truly adequate appreciation at how complex the science and manufacturing is for these products, nor do they understand that it would really be impossible to re-capitalize once the present industry is gone.

Digital capture will not need to blow away 2007's neg film - it will likely win this battle in a walk-over.