Going in with a calumet

[Padu Merloti]

Hi All,

I'm a "casual" photographer... I invest more time than the average hobbyist photographer into learning photography but I'm not a professional photographer. Better yet, I'm a software engineer that once had dreams to be a professional photographer.

I started photography in the late 80's with 35mm and my own B&W darkroom. Recently I've jumped into the digital bandwagon with a sonalta d-slr. All good until I came to an exhibition of a fellow photographer (Dana Neibert) and realized that film is still used a lot, especially for commercial stuff. He showed his crown graphic, and that got me thinking.

Now I want to start shooting large format (4x5), but on a budget.

From what I've researched, the calumets are a very good starter camera (cheap), and then I've bought one on ebay (model CC-402 I believe, it's the gray one) for about $100 bucks (body only), still shipping. The price is ok, so if I need to re-sell it, I won't loose any money.

My question is if this is a good camera to start (availability of parts...) or should I spend a bit more and start with a calumet 45N model (the black one, with square rails). I've heard somewhere that square rails are better than rod rails, any true?

I will mostly shoot in my studio, and I don't care for convenience if I need to take a few shots outdoors and carry that monster around.

I've read the recommendations about shen hao, tachihara (spell?) and so on, but these will be about $500 after all said and done, while I believe I can spend as little as $300 with a calumet system.

Cheers!

Padu

[Walter Calahan]

Learn what you just bought. It will teach you what you want and don't want in your next camera.

[Padu Merloti]

Learn what you just bought. It will teach you what you want and don't want in your next camera.


I read that as an implicit "yeah, this camera will be ok".

I'll explore around and try to learn what I need to buy next and start shooting!

Cheers and tks

[windpointphoto]

They're good cameras in the studio. Hard, but not impossible to lug around in the field. The only real drawback is the rail is either in the picture or sticking you in the throat. The only parts I ever needed to replace was the occasional knob. I got replacements at the hardware store. It's been said many times in many ways, spend the money on the best lens you can afford. The camera is only a light tight box that holds the lens at one end and film at the other. Plus they're cool to look at and they just seem to say "I are a professional".

[Vaughn]

"The long focus CC-401 is desirable for portraits and product photography, while the wide angle CC-402 is a rather remarkable camera. To make good use of lenses in the 90mm or shorter area, the usual, but rather expensive, means of allowing this to be done conveniently, is to buy a modular camera and equip it with a bag bellows, a short rail and perhaps a recessed lensboard. The CC-402 provides quite a good wide angle capability just as it came from Calumet. The bellows isn't a bag type but it is very flexible. The rail is short, so it doesn't poke you when you are trying to focus. The lensboard isn't recessed, it's set back from the front frame. This is less apt to be a nuisance than the recessed types. (Often, attaching cable releases and/or flash cords to a recessed lensboard can be a problem.) It is a specialist camera, not usable with long lenses at all. The maximum distance from lensboard to groundglass is about seven inches (180mm), so a lens of maybe 5" 125mm is as long as would be feasible."

I grabbed that off another website. So from that, if you have the 402, it will have a rather short rail. With only 7" of bellows, you will be limited to relatively short lenses, such as the 125mm mentioned, for work in the studio, while a 150mm should be able to focus at infinity out in the landscape. But if you can find a good value with a 90mm, and like the look of wide-angle photography, you'll be set.

But measure the distance from the GG to the lens board with the camera racked all the way out and let us know the distance.

In any case, Calumets are good machines and Walter is correct...using this camera will inform you of what you like and/or dislike in a view camera.

Vaughn

[Padu Merloti]

I grabbed that off another website. So from that, if you have the 402, it will have a rather short rail. With only 7" of bellows, you will be limited to relatively short lenses, such as the 125mm mentioned, for work in the studio, while a 150mm should be able to focus at infinity out in the landscape. But if you can find a good value with a 90mm, and like the look of wide-angle photography, you'll be set.

But measure the distance from the GG to the lens board with the camera racked all the way out and let us know the distance.

In any case, Calumets are good machines and Walter is correct...using this camera will inform you of what you like and/or dislike in a view camera.

Vaughn


According to the item description,

my camera on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250080248583&rd=1&rd=1)
it has a 20 inches rail...

[Vaughn]

So that would be the 401. The standard length (the 400?) is 16".

I think that unless you really like shooting wide angle, this might be the better camera to start off with. You will have a larger choice of lenses that will work for you, and will be able to use the same lens in the landscape and for close-up work in the studio.

The Caltar 150mm, 180mm or 210mm would be the inexpensive, yet very good quality way to start off. Since money is an issue, I am assuming that one lens is the way you would like to go for now. Any of the above focal lengths will serve you well. Personally I prefer the 150mm (normal -- close to what our eyes see), but others tend towards the 210mm (slightly long). The 180mm would be either the long side of normal or the short side of long.

Vaughn

[Sheldon N]

I started in 4x5 with a Cambo monorail and a 135mm Optar lens at the cost of $125. I thought it would be an interesting diversion from digital.

What I didn't realize is that it would cost me $3,000.

Be careful, or you'll catch the bug! :)

[Ernest Purdum]

The Calumet is an excellent starter camera. It was a favorite of photography classes for many years and for good reason. It allows you to find out what all the movements are good for and it is quite sturdy. The rod rail is fine.

One of its weaker points is the friction focusing. This might be the cause of what you heard about square rails, since they are associated with rack and pinion focusing. Keep the friction surfaces clean and this should not be a problem.

If and when you should want to upgrade to a more versatile monorail, look for something that offers interchangeable bellows, backs and rails. Offhand, I don't remember whether or not the 45N does.

In selecting a lens, make sure you have enough coverage to make use of your movements. If in doubt, come back here and ask. Most 180 or 210mm lenses would be fine. Be sure to stay away from 127 or 135mm f4.5 lenses. These have no movement capability at all.

The Tachihara, Shen Hao and all are for people who want something light for backpacking. You may want to consider one of these later, but the Calumet is a better starting tool, particularly since you say you have mostly studio work in mind.

[Padu Merloti]

snipped...

In selecting a lens, make sure you have enough coverage to make use of your movements. If in doubt, come back here and ask. Most 180 or 210mm lenses would be fine. Be sure to stay away from 127 or 135mm f4.5 lenses. These have no movement capability at all.

snipped...


Thanks a lot for the reply, and thanks to everybody who also replied.

Regarding the lens focal distance, I'll have to study more about it. In my mind, shorter focals would have a wider angle, and therefore a larger circle (which would allow more movements). Can you point where is the flaw in my thought?

BTW, from what I've seen so far I think I'll easily spend more on the lens than I've spent on the body. Just a confirmation, the shutter always come integrated with the lens?

Cheers!

Padu

[Sheldon N]

Thanks a lot for the reply, and thanks to everybody who also replied.

Regarding the lens focal distance, I'll have to study more about it. In my mind, shorter focals would have a wider angle, and therefore a larger circle (which would allow more movements). Can you point where is the flaw in my thought?

BTW, from what I've seen so far I think I'll easily spend more on the lens than I've spent on the body. Just a confirmation, the shutter always come integrated with the lens?

Cheers!

Padu

Actually, it works the opposite of that. Image circles tend to be smaller the shorter the focal length. Rather than trying to get into the reason why (details of angle of view versus angle of coverage, lens design, etc, etc.), I'd just recommend that you think of the focal length being completely independent of the image circle. In other words - check the stats on the lens to make sure it has a big enough image circle before you buy it.

Yes, most modern LF lenses come equipped with shutters. If you see the phrase "barrel", that means there is no shutter. The lenses you should be looking at will be in either Copal 0 or Copal 1 sized shutters.

[Vaughn]

If your exposures are going to be more than a second (common in the studio at f32 or smaller aperature), and in the landscape where one has the lens shut down to F64 and one is working in subdued light), than a barrel lens would work as a starter lens (shutters would still be the easiest way to go).

Decent barrel lenses should be under $100 -- lots on the market since the graphics/printing industry has gone digital. Lenses designed for copy work will work in the studio and at infinity in the landscape. One just has to be careful in that some copy lenses have a reduced image circle at infinity, since they were designed for close-up work and the image circle gets larger as one focuses closer to the camera.

There is enough experience here that if you find an interesting lens, someone here will probably know more about it. I'll sell you a 210mm barrel lens cheap ($50 plus postage) -- excellent lens, clean as a whistle, but it is a huge beast. I bought it on ebay for $60 since it was claimed it covered 8x10...it does not, but would cover 5x7 and 4x5 easily.

I presently use two lenses in shutters and two without. It was a little frustrating this summer not to be able to use my 19" barrel lens in the desert as much as I would like. Even with ASA 125 film, the shutter speeds I needed were too fast even at f90. Under the redwoods, I have no problem.

Just something to think about.

Vaughn

[Kirk Fry]

It is a great starter camera. I started with one. It will do everything except lenses shorter than 90 mm and travel in airplanes very well. Shoot 500 negs and you will either sell it or know what you want to buy next. I started with a 210 mm Sironar.

Lenses do not always come with integrated shutters. Barrel lenses do not have shutters. It should say what shutter it comes with.

Happy shooting.

[Ernest Purdum]

Regarding coverage. If all lenses spread light out at the same angle, the longest lenses would have the largest image circles. If all lenses were the same focal length, the ones that worked at the widest angle would have the largest image circle. Since both factors are variables, we have to find out the actual specifications.

I think it's helpful to think of the lens as a nozzle, spraying light.

[John O'Connell]

The Calumet CC-400 series is less fragile than the 45N and 45NX in my experience, though I wouldn't call them overengineered. Don't buy big heavy lenses for it and you should be OK, because the lensboard retention system ain't the beefiest.

The friction focusing on these cameras worked pretty well for me, the geared rise is fun, and the long bellows model allows a lot of flexibility with your choice of lenses for closeups.

[Turner Reich]

There is no reason that the Calumet shouldn't work just fine for you, it has a full range of movements and for a learning camera, working camera, indoors, outdoors, portrait, studio, landscape, you can do about all you need to do. It will take most of the lenses that you will probably use. The lens board retention is about the same as some of the wooden cameras, a stainless steel slide held with two screws. The screws are small and can break. I had to replace the screws on a friends Calumet because one broke when he tightened them a small amount for security. I tapped them out and put larger screws in for safety. If you think it will be a problem you might use a lightweight slightly loose safety cable from the lens board to the body. Unless you are using some really heavy barrel lens it shouldn't be a problem though. The focus works very well on these cameras. The backs revolve and the 4x5 models come with a well built bale. It may come with a gridded ground glass and that can be used or you can get a nice plain gg from Dave at Satin Snow which is brighter and of course, new. You can get the Calumet roll film holder to use 120 roll film also which can be very convenient in some situations. Don't forget a good tripod, not the 35mm lightweight ones but one that will support the weight. Let us know how it works out and what you think of the camera.

[cyrus]

Shutters are mechanisms that the lens screw into - so you CAN buy shutters and lenses separately - and on occasion they're sold that way on Ebay though in almost all cases they're sold combined together. The only exceptions are barrel lenses (like the old brass canons) that don't have a shutter mechanism attached to them (you can use a packard shutter behind them instead - or a hat in front of them)

The calument monorail is a perfectly fine camera that does everything a 4x5 camera is supposed to do. It even has a rotating back that lots of other cameras lack. And it is about as solid as these things can get. There's no real reason to spend more than $150 for a 4x5 camera body. THe only downside is that they're hard to carry around because they're heavy and because you can't store them flat. On some cameras, you can disconnect the bellows easily and turn the front and rear standards 90 degrees, so they're aligned with the bar, and so the whole thing is flat (and can fit in briefcase) That's the only reason why I gave away my old calumet.

[walter23]

I've read the recommendations about shen hao, tachihara (spell?) and so on, but these will be about $500 after all said and done, while I believe I can spend as little as $300 with a calumet system.



Shen Hao and tachihara are field cameras. If you plan to shoot outdoors they're usually a more convenient choice than your monorail will be. The $500 is for camera only; you'll still need all your accessories and lenses, so the price tag will be more in the $1000 range for a starter shen hao setup.

You said you're mostly into studio, so your monorail is a good choice. I don't think there's much to gain right now from going to a newer calumet 45N. What you need is a lens and some film holders and a dark cloth, cable release, and film. And a loupe. Look for a lens bargain; a caltar-II N 210mm f/5.6 would be ideal for your application, I'd guess. If you're patient you should be able to pick one up on ebay for about $200. This is a good lens with decent ability to do movements, and 210mm is a normal focal length for 4x5 (similar to about 50 or 60mm on a 35mm system).

Good luck. Read some books; Steve Simmons' view camera book is nice. There are others, but they don't self promote as regularly on here as much so I can't remember their titles/authors ;) I think Jim Stone was one.

[Padu Merloti]

What about this lens?

Rodenstock Geronar Large Format 210mm F6.8 Lens MINT
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rodenstock-Geronar-Large-Format-210mm-F6-8-Lens-MINT_W0QQitemZ180085322104QQihZ008QQcategoryZ30076QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

One thing that has been said is area of coverage. How do I get that information?
I'm also looking at a polaroid 545 back from the same seller. Is that all that I have to buy to start producing a few images?

Cheers

Padu

[Ernest Purdum]

The Geronar is one of the more obscure lenses. I did a search and found a little on it. It is said to be a triplet (three individual pieces of glass) with a 230mm image circle. Triplet construction is usually chosen for economy. The 230mm circle is adequate for 4X5 with moderate movements. At the price this one went for, it could have been a good starter lens for you, but don't regret it, something else will soon come along, maybe something better.

Polaroid 545 holders are a very good learning tool, though the film costs can add up quickly. Yes, a camera, a lens, a tripod, a dark cloth and a 545 back form a complete kit.

[David Karp]

For some information on the 210mm Geronar, check out Chris Perez's 210mm lens matchup: http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/test/BigMash210.html. He found that other lenses outperform the 210 Geronar at wider apertures. However, at f/16 or f/22, it is just as sharp as the other lenses in the test.

As for the other lenses, a 210mm Caltar II-N is a great value, especially since they seem to be going for around $1 per mm lately. The only problem is size. If you are going to end up carrying these things around on your back some day, the 210mm f/5.6 lenses are pretty heavy compared to the Geronar (or its Caltar II-E twin), a 200mm f/8 Nikkor M (expensive), or a 210mm f/6.1 Schneider Xenar (or its Caltar Pro twin). Unbelievably, even to myself, I have all three of these lenses. I agree with Chris's conclusions. The Caltar II-E (Geronar) is plenty sharp at f/22, which is where I have mostly used it. It is also small and light. The Caltar II-N is a very nice lens. It is sharp at f/5.6. So is the 210 Caltar Pro at f/6.1. This lens is also very small and light. The Caltar Pro renders out of focus areas differently than the Caltar II-N. I don't have the words to explain the differences, but I do see them.

So, crazy is it seems, I have found a place for all of these lenses. The Caltar Pro goes with me and the field camera. The Caltar II-N comes along whenever I use the monorail, and light weight is not so important. The Caltar II-E is permanantly mounted on my Crown Graphic, and it comes with me in the car for impromptu photo opportunities.

Yes, I am nuts, but I use a 210 and my 125mm Fujinon more than any other lenses (I only have one 125mm) and anyway I think that Ole has more 210s than I do, if I remember correctly.

[neil poulsen]

I think the Calumet 45N (aka Cambo) would be an excellent starter camera. Personally, I like the same camera with the ruler on the monorail. It's a little hard to carry around, but it has excellent functionality and lots of accessories that routinely go up for auction on EBay.

The nice thing about the 45N and similar cameras, is that they take a wide angle bellows. This gives you a versatile combination. There were adaptor boards made for several different lens boards, so it gives you the flexibility later to also get a field camera and trade back and forth without having to switch lens boards. For example, I think an adaptor lensboard was made for the smaller Technika boards.

[David Karp]

I agree with what Neil said. The Calumet 45N, 45NX (longer monorail, revolving back), and Cambo SC (many different versions) are excellent starter cameras. I would have preferred one over a CC402, but now that you have it I would use the CC402 until (if ever) you decide that you need or want something else.

By the way, after rereading my last post: My name is Dave, and I am a lensaholic.

[David Karp]

Oh yeah, one more post. Padu asked about lens coverage. Here is where you can find lots of information: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses.

[Padu Merloti]

Ok, just got my camera on the mail yesterday. It's in perfect conditions!!! (haven't tested for bellows light leaks though)

Now I'm waiting for my lens to arrive:
SCHNEIDER 180MM 1:5.6 315MM 1:12 CONVERTIBILE SYMMAR (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=016&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=260086760377&rd=1&rd=1)

And the polaroid 545 holder, which is also shipping...

I've read a few posts about this lens and even though some of them indicate that it is sub par to the more expensive ones (or non-convertible ones), it gives an ok quality. For the current stage, I believe it will be an ok lens to learn on and then later on decide what other lenses to buy.

I couldn't find the convertible lens coverage on that lens spreadsheet neither anywhere else here. Do you know if it is comparable to the prime 180mm f/5.6 symmar?

Cheers

[Ernest Purdum]

Congratulations! Now you have the basics for a good start.

Many fine photographs were made, and are probably still being made, with the Symmars prior to the S series.

If an ad just says "Symmar" without "S" or "Apo", it is presumably a convertible. whether the ad mentions it or not.