$10,000 Kodak ULF Film Order [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

alec4444

5-Feb-2007, 16:30

LOL, that got your attention. No, I'm not placing one quite yet, but I'm wondering if anyone has the proper email address for this department. I tried to find it on Kodak's site to no avail.

Also, has anyone tried contacting Fuji about color ULF film? All I've heard is Kodak and the $10K thing. Perhaps that means that Fuji won't do it.

Thanks!
--A

Walter Calahan

5-Feb-2007, 16:50

Fuji will always out customer service Kodak. Have you given thme a try? Not saying they will, but it's good to challenge them.

Ron Mowrey

5-Feb-2007, 17:15

Alec;

If anyone is serious they can get that information easily from EK. I've known people who have done it.

Ron Mowrey

Oren Grad

5-Feb-2007, 18:16

alec4444

5-Feb-2007, 18:44

Oren Grad

5-Feb-2007, 18:58

Thanks Oren, I'll give them a ring tomorrow. Walter, if I get the info I want I'll be sure to hassle Fuji as well. Of course, I'm doing all of this whilst bugging the hell out of anyone who dares answer the phone at the US Post Office.... (per other thread)

Cheers!
--A

Alec - I should add, specifically on the question of special orders, in the past Kodak has told me without exception that all special orders must be placed, and all firm price quotes obtained, through an authorized Kodak dealer. Since most Kodak dealers are clueless about this sort of thing and not motivated to learn, that has meant seeking out one of the handful of specialist dealers who cater to eccentrics like us. For example, I'm pretty sure Fred Newman has been involved with Kodak special orders in the past, and even last year's TMY extravaganza was, in the end, offered through someone (J&C) who became a Kodak dealer. But so much has changed so quickly in the recent past, that who knows what the story is now? Perhaps Michael Kadillak can shed more light here...

Michael Kadillak

5-Feb-2007, 19:22

I had breakfast last Friday with our Kodak rep near Rochester to catch up on things and maintain the relationship. What product are you specifically interested in from Kodak?

I will share with you that if you want film bad enough Kodak will be more than happy to charge you 30-40% more than retail and hold a dollar minimum order in your face. I will give you names and numbers if that is the direction you want to go.

Just PM if you want to get specific.

Cheers!

Rob Vinnedge

5-Feb-2007, 19:27

Michael,

Am I missing something, or are you suggesting that Kodak simply doesn't want to fill such orders, but will do so if they can make it hurt?

Helen Bach

5-Feb-2007, 21:06

Alec -

You'll never find anything on the Kodak website. Remember this magic number: 1-800-242-2424. Whenever you have a question about Kodak analog products, call this number and ask to be connected to someone who deals with professional film products. I've called Kodak many times over the years, and the operators have never failed to connect me promptly to someone who actually knows what he's talking about.

It's extension 19 for pro still film. Like Oren, I've always found Kodak customer service to be excellent - far and away the best among the film manufacturers.

Here (http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/contactKodak/kodakPhoneNumbers.jhtml#0003) is the US telephone number page, under 'Contact Us' in the support section of their website.

Best,
Helen

alec4444

5-Feb-2007, 21:17

Thanks, guys. I've heard that $10K number thrown around a lot, but I haven't heard how many sheets that gets you. Or if they stick you with tax. I'd be interested in 400NC or 160NC in 11x14. At the right price per sheet I'd imagine I could unload enough of it on other photographers to not mind the initial outlay.

If they're just going to screw me, I can do without. "Authorized Kodak dealer" (nice as they may be) means another outstretched paw. Perhaps I should be taping together rolls of that film in 120 to make "sheets". :p

--A

Michael Kadillak

5-Feb-2007, 22:30

Michael,

Am I missing something, or are you suggesting that Kodak simply doesn't want to fill such orders, but will do so if they can make it hurt?

I am not suggesting it - I am stating a known fact. However making it hurt depends upon your reference point.

From Kodak's point of view filling a relatively small order for a product that is not in their standard product list can be done as a Special Order. If you want to pay their price they are willing to accomodate you - it is as simple as that. Anyone can contact them and most of the time they will listen intently.

From the consumers point of view the ability to accept the price that they quote you is directly proportional to how bad you want the film. There are no negotiations in this arrangement. For example there was a recent offering for 12x20 color negative sheet film that was offered at a price that I remember at a cost of over $25 a sheet. While I personally find that price terribly aggregious, others found it acceptable and coughed up the dough.

When we put together the TMY deal we amassed sufficient quantity to tell Kodak that we were simply not going to accept these previous priced arrangements as we could point to many multiples of their minimum volume. Fortunately, things worked out.

It is what it is...

Helen Bach

6-Feb-2007, 06:42

I'm sure that things have changed since I last dealt with special orders from Kodak, but I observed that Kodak UK and Kodak USA had quite different policies, and they would offer different deals. It was worth trying both. If you think that Kodak are ripping you off, try getting a special order from Fuji - they wouldn't even discuss special orders.

Thanks to Ilford, your bargaining power with Kodak would be greater for B&W film than it is for colour, and maybe that is worth bearing in mind when reading Michael's post.

Best,
Helen

Sal Santamaura

6-Feb-2007, 09:12

...When we put together the TMY deal we amassed sufficient quantity to tell Kodak that we were simply not going to accept these previous priced arrangements as we could point to many multiples of their minimum volume. Fortunately, things worked out...Well, for certain sizes, things haven't yet "worked out." Some of that film ordered and paid for more than a year ago will allegedly be shipped "soon." Perhaps even multiples of its minimum volume wasn't enough to get Kodak's full attention when lower prices resulted.

Many who are enthralled with certain Kodak films continue to put up with this situation. I reached my limit and decided to perform necessary testing, then transition my black and white work to the supplier that will most likely be around longest, Ilford. Virtually any size sheets desired can be obtained as part of Ilford's annual special order periods; delivery occurred as promised last time and there's no reason to expect it won't again this May.

I am fully aware of TMY's virtues for ULF and alternative processes. However, given the supply situation, I suggest trying FP4 Plus instead. It expands just about as well as TMY and, processed in Perceptol 1:1 using a Jobo, my EI is 160 as measured with a Zone VI-modified Pentax digital spot meter. For reference, TMY comes out at EI 400 under the same conditions.

To me, 1 1/3 stops less sensitivity doesn't seem like a large price to pay for using film from a supplier that actually delivers and doesn't act like it's doing me a favor.

OK, now let's hear from all those who disagree because they're making 12x20 star trail images...

steve simmons

6-Feb-2007, 09:27

Marco Annaratone

6-Feb-2007, 10:13

Well, for certain sizes, things haven't yet "worked out." Some of that film ordered and paid for more than a year ago will allegedly be shipped "soon." Perhaps even multiples of its minimum volume wasn't enough to get Kodak's full attention when lower prices resulted.

....

I would like to subscribe 100% to this. Too often do I read statements to the effect that "sourcing ULF film is no problem" only to discover three lines below that it was 11x14 film. Nothing at all against that format, but ULF ain't 11x14 but a bunch of other sizes as well that aren't supported very well at all these days.

I just ordered a 14x17 with holders and have been scouting relentlessly the market of ULF film for a month now. Bottom line: some ADOX film in my freezer already and a big hope that the Ilford ULF run won't let me down. That is pretty much it.

(Well, I could always shoot 14x17 green X-ray film., couldn't I? :D)

Michael Kadillak

6-Feb-2007, 10:40

There may be a solution for ULF alt process people to make HP5+ more useable for them,. That is all I can say at the moment but we will report on it as soon as things are settled.

Secondly, IMHO the leftovers from the previous J and C special order arrangement need to be cleaned up before another order is made. It appears that money was taken and no film has ever been delivered which I think is unfair. Lets get this cleaned up before any new deals are made and new orders taken.

steve simmons

If people are interested in Fuji films let me know. I may have a contact at Fuji.

I am in direct contact with Kodak and am agressively working on completing the remaining deliveries to those that have had ordered this film and it is my highest priority. You will hear from us very soon and all will be well.

Maybe some alt process guys can chime in here about HP5 but I could not use it with #2 Azo was it does not reach sufficient density when even modestly expanded and many of the alt processes need a higher net density than what I required. If you are printing silver and shoot normal scenes then if is a fine film. Try to expand the film and simultaneously attain a net density of 1.65 or higher and my efforts with HP5 fell quite short. I am not trying to start an argument, just state my individual experience with HP5. I am sure that others can offer their experience and the type of printing that they pursue.

Rob Vinnedge

6-Feb-2007, 10:41

I'm certain Ilford will not let you down. I met with Veronica Cotter from Ilford/Harmon yesterday at Glazer's Camera in Seattle (one of the new US distributors on Ilford's list). She has assured me that Ilford is here to stay in a big way - but then you knew that already from Simon Galley's many posts and appearances. It is now possible to place annual ULF orders and special orders of any size any time if the minimum quantity is met - and I don't believe Ilford intends to fleece.

I'm planning to place a big order of 14X17 and 16X20 FP4 through Glazer's this month - easy for me since I live here and perhaps easier for others living on the West coast as regards shipping.

steve simmons

6-Feb-2007, 10:56

j.e.simmons

6-Feb-2007, 11:12

I had similar experiences with HP5+ as Michael. I had hoped the Ilford special order would include FP4 in 2x3, but it did not - only HP5. I'd be very happy to have a film that I can shoot in both 2x3 and 8x10 other than Efke. So, I'm hoping you're right, Steve.
juan

Kerry L. Thalmann

6-Feb-2007, 12:09

Personally, I hope both Ilford and Kodak are successful in their ULF film programs. Last year I bought a bunch of TMAX 400, but passed on the Ilford films as they didn't ofer 4x10. This year, Ilford has added 4x10 FP4+ to their special ULF program. So, I plan to buy some FP4+ in both 4x10 and 7x17 (and maybe 14x17). I still have a pretty good supply of 7x17 TMAX 400 in my freezer, but if Kodak does another ULF run of TMAX 400, I'll order some more. Point is, these are both excellent films and I like having choices. I'm still blown away that is this day and age we can get both of these excellent products in such a wide range of sizes. It's simply amazing and I plan to support both companies to the best of my ability.

My reasoning isn't altruistic. In fact, it's rather selfish. I want to be able to get good quality ULF film for the rest of my life - not just for the next couple years. The more ULF film we buy today, the greater the availability. The greater the availability of top notch ULF film, the more likely people are to buy a ULF camera and discover the joys of ULF photography. This will create even more demand for ULF film. It's a snowball effect. As long as there is a steady reliable supply of ULF cameras, holders, lenses and film we all win. If there is a weakness in the supply chain of any of these items, sales of the others will suffer. We're all in this together. What's good for one of us is good for all of us.

Kerry

Colin Graham

6-Feb-2007, 14:18

Be patient with HP5+. There may be a new solution.

steve simmons
view camera magazine

Steve, when can you say more about the hp5+? The Ilford deadline is coming up pretty quick.

I thought about holding out for more tmy, but went ahead and ordered some fp4+ mainly to quit stewing about it. But if (or when) it becomes available, I'll buy some...Hell, I'd like to buy some of every brand if they cut it in the sizes I need.

Colin Graham

14-Feb-2007, 17:31

Be patient with HP5+. There may be a new solution.

I am glad to hear there are people working on fulfilling the previous paid orders. Nothing will hurt the ULF community more than concerns about orders being paid for and then not delivered.

steve simmons
view camera magazine

Bump. Two weeks to the Ilford deadline. Am I the only one curious about this? I havent worked much with hp5+, so it's hard to take 'there may be a new solution' on faith. But it would be nice to have a 400 that could build some density. If you could give a hint please, I'll happily order some..

steve simmons

14-Feb-2007, 19:18

The signs are promising. It is a new formula that might kick HP5+ in the butt. It is too early to say for sure.

teve

Colin Graham

14-Feb-2007, 21:43

Thanks 'teve! :-)

steve simmons

15-Feb-2007, 07:58

from Michael Kadillak on Feb 6, 2007
."I am in direct contact with Kodak and am agressively working on completing the remaining deliveries to those that have had ordered this film and it is my highest priority. You will hear from us very soon and all will be well."

Can we get an update on this situation re the unfulfilled orders from the previous Michael Kadillak and Jand C order for T-Max? I am still curious why refunds have not been made if the fim has not/can not be delivered after almost 8 months or so.

steve simmons

Struan Gray

15-Feb-2007, 12:59

Fud, Fud, glorious Fud!
Nothing quite like it for boiling the blood!

So follow me, follow
Down to the hollow
And there let us wallow
In glorious Fud!

(with apologies to Flanders and Swan)

Terence McDonagh

15-Feb-2007, 13:20

Great. Now I'm going to be whistling that for the rest of the day.

Ted Harris

15-Feb-2007, 17:23

Struan,

Or

Potami, potami, potami .....

sanking

15-Feb-2007, 17:56

Let's hope the new HP5+ film is as good as TMAX-400. If so, it will be worthy of attention.

But wonder why Ilford does not cut Delta 400 in ULF size? It is, IMHO, a much better film than HP5+ for alternative printing with ULF formats.

Sandy King

David A. Goldfarb

15-Feb-2007, 17:57

I agree. I don't care for HP5+ or TMY, but I like Delta 400 and would buy it in sheet sizes.

Oren Grad

15-Feb-2007, 18:06

Let's hope the new HP5+ film is as good as TMAX-400. If so, it will be worthy of attention.

Sandy, HP5+ isn't changing. Steve's point was that there's a new processing brew in the works that may alter its characteristics in a way that's useful for alt-process fans. Time will tell.

But wonder why Ilford does not cut Delta 400 in ULF size? It is, IMHO, a much better film than HP5+ for alternative printing with ULF formats.

Ilford used to offer Delta 400 in standard sheet sizes, but sales of HP5+ were far greater, and so it was eventually discontinued. Delta 100 is the only Delta film offered in any sheet sizes now. Simon Galley can give us the official story, but at this point, I'm sure their reasoning is that bringing back Delta 400 wouldn't increase overall sales nearly enough to pay back the decrease in sales of HP5+ as well as the cost of tooling back up to coat Delta 400 on sheet film base (which they no longer do) as well as the cost of additional inventory as well as the administrative overhead of maintaining more SKUs.

Rob Vinnedge

8-Mar-2007, 19:58

Steve (Simmons),

Is Oren correct in stating that chemistry, not HP5+ itself, is going to emerge that will alleviate the pesky shoulder problem? If so, why didn't you just say so in your original statement, rather than wait for an interpretation from someone else? This ULF film thing is driving me crazy, because so many people (not just you, Steve) find the need to leave tantalizing, cryptic messages about "possibilities". Why should information be so proprietary? Aren't we all trying to work together to become a market for the film manufacturers? If someone knows something and feels the need to share it with the community, then, out with it, please, and spare us the anguish of endless speculation.