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View Full Version : Affordable Monorail with "Geared Everything" ?



Ken Lee
28-Jan-2007, 13:41
I was using my Kodak 2A and appreciating the geared movements that it has. (It isn't perfect, though. Front movements are limited to rise and fall, albeit geared)

Are there any 4x5 or 5x7 cameras that have everything geared, and which are affordable ? Barring that, is there a model which has many geared features ?

Herb Cunningham
28-Jan-2007, 13:57
toyo has several. I think Horseman does?

Cambo has a monorail that is cheaper and uses friction rollers, almost like gearing. You can get those really cheap.

Rick Moore
28-Jan-2007, 14:02
Are there any 4x5 or 5x7 cameras that have everything geared, and which are affordable ? Barring that, is there a model which has many geared features ?

Toyo's 4x5 and 8x10 "G" series monorail cameras have geared front and rear rise/fall and shift movements. If weight is not a factor, Sinar's P and P2 monorails have every movement geared.

David A. Goldfarb
28-Jan-2007, 14:05
Second hand Sinar P's are very affordable these days. My 8x10" cost $850. 4x5's are going for around $500.

Ken Lee
28-Jan-2007, 14:22
At $ 500, the Sinar sounds nice.

If I wanted to get around 500mm of bellows extension, what else would I need to purchase ? I like doing botanicals at close range with my 240mm Fujinon A, and I have a 450mm Fujinon C that I use from time to time.

Also, would I be able to place a 5x7 back on that ? It would be nice to have one camera for both 4x5 and 5x7.

David A. Goldfarb
28-Jan-2007, 14:39
You need a 5x7" (or larger with a reducing back) Sinar to shoot 5x7", and 5x7's are kind of less common among Sinars, but it is fairly easy to convert between formats, so you could start with a 4x5" if you don't find a 5x7" right away, and then keep an eye out for a 5x7" conversion kit, which would include a format frame, back, and bellows (the front standard is always the same).

A standard Sinar 4x5" bellows is 14", and Horseman makes a 20" bellows that fits. I'm not sure how long the standard 5x7" bellows is. My 8x10" bellows is 40", but I think it's an extra long custom bellows. If you want more bellows, you can always add an extra front standard and bellows and more rail. The rail is infinitely extendable.

I have a 4x5" reducing back for my 8x10", which makes it handy to switch between formats, but if you use a reducing back, you lose the asymmetric tilts and swings because the swing and tilt axes no longer fall on the groundglass with the reducing back in place (or you could do them with the full size back, recompose and switch backs). If you use the full format conversion kit, you retain the asymmetric tilts and swings.

David Karp
28-Jan-2007, 21:52
Sinar P is a very nice camera. If you cannot find one at the right price, a Cambo Legend is an option. They are nice cameras and seem to have been going for reasonable prices. Cambo accessories generally sell for less than many of the other brands.

Capocheny
28-Jan-2007, 23:27
Ken,

The Sinar X is also a great camera... I shoot botanicals with a 240 as well! :)

Cheers

Struan Gray
29-Jan-2007, 03:32
You can squeeze over 18" of bellows length out of a standard Sinar 4x5 bellows. I use a Norma with 18" of rail (and an end cap - adds a useful inch). With both front and rear focussing slides fully extended I can focus a 18" barrel lens down to twenty feet or so, and my 420 in shutter to around ten feet or less. A 450 at infinity or a 240 up to 1:1 (or pointed straight down at the ground) would be no problem.

The bellows isn't so very pleated at these extensions, but with a Lee compendium shade I haven't noticed any excessive bellows flare. I once checked in a flarey situation if I could see any difference between the tight single bellows and a dual bellows setup with an intermediate standard and the differences were less than the differences introduced by my cheapie scanner.

I have a 5x7 back, bellows and reducing adaptor, but for field use I just take the 4x5 setup and one bellows: the slight inconveniences are heavily outweighed by the lack of extra gubbins to load into my pack.

Michael Graves
29-Jan-2007, 06:49
If you are interested, I have a Toyo 5x7 with both the 5x7 and 4x5 reducing back that I would be willing to sell.

Ken Lee
29-Jan-2007, 07:33
If you are interested, I have a Toyo 5x7 with both the 5x7 and 4x5 reducing back that I would be willing to sell.

I am interested. Which Toyo is it ?

Ken Lee
29-Jan-2007, 07:36
You can squeeze over 18" of bellows length out of a standard Sinar 4x5 bellows. I use a Norma with 18" of rail (and an end cap - adds a useful inch). With both front and rear focussing slides fully extended I can focus a 18" barrel lens down to twenty feet or so, and my 420 in shutter to around ten feet or less. A 450 at infinity or a 240 up to 1:1 (or pointed straight down at the ground) would be no problem.

The bellows isn't so very pleated at these extensions, but with a Lee compendium shade I haven't noticed any excessive bellows flare. I once checked in a flarey situation if I could see any difference between the tight single bellows and a dual bellows setup with an intermediate standard and the differences were less than the differences introduced by my cheapie scanner.

I have a 5x7 back, bellows and reducing adaptor, but for field use I just take the 4x5 setup and one bellows: the slight inconveniences are heavily outweighed by the lack of extra gubbins to load into my pack.

Sounds good. Is there a place on the web where one can become more familiar with the world of Sinar offerings ? Like many camera lines, there is a long history with many models, and (perhaps) many issues of compatibility between the various models.

David A. Goldfarb
29-Jan-2007, 08:53
Actually, most Sinar stuff after the Alpina and Norma is compatible across generations, and there haven't been too many different models, so you can mix and match almost all you want (and even then, you can still use some Norma items on an F or P, and they all take the same lensboards). You can combine a P rear standard with an F front standard to make a lighter weight "C" with the asymmetric rear tilts of a P. The Alpina used its own style rail, but the Norma, P, and F models all use the same rail. Some of the parts (replaceables like nylon gear tracks, levels, and such) in my P standard bearers have even been replaced with P2 parts.

One thing to watch out for, if you are looking for an 8x10" is that there are some bellows and backs for the earlier non-metering back, and some for the larger metering back. To some degree this might affect the smaller formats as well. For instance, the 4x5" bellows are all interchangeable, but the 4x5" metering back doesn't fit in the horizontal position on my earlier 4x5" sliding back.

Frank Petronio
29-Jan-2007, 10:35
The progression was the Sinar Standard, Sinar Norma, Sinar F-C-P, Sinar Alpina, Sinar F2-P2, Sinar X and all the digital stuff like the P3 that they have now...

I see they updated their URL:
http://www.sinarcameras.com/
The last time I looked, they didn't have much legacy camera information.

The Sinar Norma and the chrome P are a really great cameras.

Michael Graves
29-Jan-2007, 10:40
I am interested. Which Toyo is it ?

I think it's tee original G. It really doesn't have much identification on it. PM me and I'll send you pictures.

Ken Lee
29-Jan-2007, 11:33
The progression was the Sinar Standard, Sinar Norma, Sinar F-C-P, Sinar Alpina, Sinar F2-P2, Sinar X and all the digital stuff like the P3 that they have now...

I see they updated their URL:
http://www.sinarcameras.com/
The last time I looked, they didn't have much legacy camera information.

The Sinar Norma and the chrome P are a really great cameras.

Thanks - I will attempt to load all this up into memory.

Struan Gray
29-Jan-2007, 13:21
It's easy enough to get a feel for the main subdivisions of the Sinar lineup by cruising eBay. Note that the Norma only has geared focus. I'm not sure if the F standards allow geared rise, but for geared everything you are looking at using P or P2 standards. As others have said, you can mix and match, for example using a P standard on the front if you mostly use front movements.

If you're going to spend money, don't forget the Arca models. The f-line with orbix is as nice a geared field setup as it is possible to make. Prices haven't dropped through the floor like with Sinar and other monorails though.

GPS
29-Jan-2007, 13:34
[QUOTE=Ken Lee;213028]...
Are there any 4x5 or 5x7 cameras that have everything geared, and which are affordable ? .../QUOTE]
Do you want to have the camera for at least 20 years? For 200$ a year treat yourself with an Arca Swiss and some paraphernalia. How affordable is that?

Ted Harris
29-Jan-2007, 13:43
Ken,

1) I was in Midwest running a workshop this weekend and noticed Jimhad a used Sinar P ... was in the 500 range if memory serves. You can get a long bellows that will give you over 600mm easily. I use a Horseman LS in the studio with geared everything. I've built my system up over many years but I believe you can esasily assemble one for less than 800. When I am doin extreme closeups I use a 1000mm rail and two bellows juined by a bellows extender standard. Midwest usuallyhas one of these too.

al olson
29-Jan-2007, 14:30
Don't overlook the Linhof Color rail camera. The front standard rise/fall is geared as is the focus movement of the rear standard. Used Colors are very reasonable. Probably less than $600 including a Schneider lens. They are also lighter than a Technika.

My Technika is more convenient to pack up when I am doing extensive traveling, but for field trips near home I use the Color at least as much. It also gets a workout in my home studio.

Ken Lee
29-Jan-2007, 20:24
Do you want to have the camera for at least 20 years? For 200$ a year treat yourself with an Arca Swiss and some paraphernalia. How affordable is that?

You make an excellent point ! :cool:

Ken Lee
30-Jan-2007, 16:30
If you're going to spend money, don't forget the Arca models. The f-line with orbix is as nice a geared field setup as it is possible to make. Prices haven't dropped through the floor like with Sinar and other monorails though.

On the Arca F-Line, is everything geared ? Or just certain things ?

JW Dewdney
30-Jan-2007, 17:10
I've tried/owned most of them. The cambo legend is the sleeper of the market - and you can get them for DIRT these days. Very solid and will last you a long time. Sinars are more pricey still (I'm talking used) but just a little bit better.

Ted Harris
30-Jan-2007, 17:12
Ken, I don't think everything is geared on the Arca you can download the catalogue here http://www.precisioncameraworks.com/Pages/arca_core.html. OTOH, I misspoke about the Horseman LS too, not everything geared. Are you sure you really want everything geared? You pay a large price in camera eight and smooth, tight friction movements, such as those on the Horseman tilt (not geared) work quite well.

David Karp
30-Jan-2007, 21:21
I was in Midwest running a workshop . . .

I'm filled with envy. Although if I lived in Columbus, or the shop was near my home, I think Jim would own a second mortgage on my house. Its much easier to control my disease from thousands of miles away!

GPS
31-Jan-2007, 01:35
On the Arca F-Line, is everything geared ? Or just certain things ?

I have the 6x9 F-metric line. Except tilts and swings everything is geared. The rest is so smooth (and with scales) that making it geared would be an overkill anyway.

Kerry L. Thalmann
31-Jan-2007, 02:16
On the Arca F-Line, is everything geared ? Or just certain things ?

On the standard F-Line, only front and rear focus are geared. The F Metric model adds front and rear geared rise/fall and left/right shift. The Micrometric Orbix option adds geared front axis tilt.

My current camera started life as an F Line Classic. As the ARCA is a totally modular system, last year I upgraded the front 110mm format frame to a Metric with Micrometric Orbix. This gave me self-arresting geared movements where I wanted them the most - front rise and front axis tilt - and only added two ounces of weight to my camera. Since I only upgraded the front format frame, and not the function carrier, I did not get the geared shift you get with the F Metric models, but that's OK for my needs.

I love being able to observe/loupe the ground glass with one hand while tweaking the front rise and axis tilt with the other. This was a joy I first experienced on my 7x17 Franken-ARCA project camera which has a pre-Monolith M-Line front standard that also has self-arresting geared rise/fall and axis tilt. This is especially handy with the longer lenses I use on this format.

Here's a photo showing the greared front rise and Micrometric Orbix geared axis tilt in action (this is my 4x10 camera, but I use the same rail and front standard in the 4x5 configuration). The knob on the right side (from the operator's point of view) of the front standard controls the geared front rise/fall and the knob on the left controls geared axis tilt.

http://thalmann.com/Ebay/Swiss%20Lotus%20Phase%203.JPG

Kerry

Kerry L. Thalmann
31-Jan-2007, 02:40
P.S. I'm not trying to imply the ARCA-SWISS system is "affordable" by everyone's standards. It's certianly not inexpensive. However, it is quality gear that will last a lifetime, and the modular nature of the system lets you expand your system and add options/accessories over time to help spread out the cost.

Personally, I'm not one whose usually satisfied with off-the-shelf solutions. I like to have things my way. That's why I originally built my 4x10 camera on an ARCA-SWISS chassis and ended up liking it so much that I turned around and built a 7x17 version. Thanks to the ARCA-SWISS chassis and front standards, both cameras are an absolute joy to use. Since I already owned the basic parts from my 4x5 ARCA-SWISS F-Line camera, the format conversions I cooked up ended up costing FAR less than buying new (or used) dedicated 4x10 or 7x17 cameras. They are rigid, fold up compactly, set up fast and offer the smoothness and preision ARCA-SWISS cameras are famous for - plus self-arresting geared ront rise/fall and axis tilt.

With the 7x17 Franken-ARCA, I spent about $1300 on the conversion (7x17 back made by Richard Ritter, custom bellows made to my specications by Camera Bellows in England, front 171mm bellows frame, pre-Monolith M-Line front format frame off the German eBay, wood for the rear frame box, t-slot aluminum extrusions, brackets and hardware, etc.). This is about 1/2 the cost of what an 80 year old 7x17 Korona or Folmer-Schwing goes for on eBay these days, or less than 1/3 the cost of a new 7x17 Shen-Hao. And, I ended up with a more rigid camera, with a longer bellows extension and self-arresting geared front rise/fall and axis tilt.

So, the ARCA-SWISS gear may not be cheap, but if you spread the cost out over time and especially over multiple formats, it's not so bad. To replace my 4x5/4x10/7x17 ARCA-SWISS system with separate cameras for each format would cost a fortune, and frankly wouldn't provide the same overall level of quality, functionality and usability as I currently get from my ARCA system.

Kerry

Struan Gray
31-Jan-2007, 02:59
Ken, Kerry and others have given you the details. As Kerry said, the real benefit of the Arca Swiss system is that you can add and subtract geared movements almost one-by-one. With, for example, the Sinar system, you choose geared everything or just focus.

If affordable means 'it must be cheap' then Sinar Ps and even more so Toyo Gs are going for stupidly low prices these days. If affordable means it must be a worthwhile investment, the Arcas look very sweet. If you can't make up your mind, Sinars at least are easy enough to rent or borrow. Try one and see if you really nead gearing.

Frank Petronio
31-Jan-2007, 03:42
While the Cambo and Sinar geared models are excellent and "stupid cheap", really the only "geared" camera worth considering for long term travel and field work is the Micrometric Orbix on account of its compactness and weight savings. Of course then you remove "cheap" from the equation.

So that old triangle rule of "faster, better, cheaper...pick any two" rings true again.

GPS
31-Jan-2007, 12:00
You make an excellent point ! :cool:

I know that you want to do some serious stuff and that you're methodological in your approach - hence a serious tool for the solid work... (the future botanicals deserve it! To put this stuff back on the scene is only salutary for our times -both for those who produce it and those who receive it...)

Ken Lee
4-Feb-2007, 16:24
for geared everything you are looking at using P or P2 standards. As others have said, you can mix and match, for example using a P standard on the front if you mostly use front movements.

I see more used Sinar P for sale, than P2. From the Sinar site, I can see that the P2 is a newer design, but do both cameras provide the same features ?

David A. Goldfarb
4-Feb-2007, 16:39
The P2 is black and has some cool graphics on it, and will be newer, but I don't know that the standard bearers have any different functionality than those for the P, and P's that are serviced regularly as mine was before I bought it, may have P2 replacement parts inside (nylon gears and bearing surfaces, particularly). The main difference is that there is one knob for swing and tilt on the P standards and a switch to toggle between them. The P2 standard bearers have two separate knobs.

A P2 usually has a metering back, and a P may or may not have a metering back. I think it is possible for the gearing for the front rise to be upgraded to brass for heavier lenses on a P or P2.

Ken Lee
16-Feb-2007, 08:05
http://www.fotoworld.ru/sinar/images/goods/view/history/1970.gif

The Sinar P came from Bob G today. He was a delight to deal with.

I've had Calumet, Tachihara, Arca Swiss, ShenHao, Wisner, and a Kodak... but this is the one they all should have been: yaw-free, everything geared, everything smooth, everything solid.

I intend to do a lot of botanicals, so this should be just the thing.

Thanks for all your help.

naturephoto1
16-Feb-2007, 08:20
Hi Ken,

Congratulations and good luck with the camera. Look forward to seeing some results. By the way, how heavy is the camera and how far do you intend to carry it for your botanical photos?

Rich

evan clarke
16-Feb-2007, 08:38
Ken,
Are you going to use it only in the studio?? My first 4x5 was a P2 and it was a wonderful camera. It was 14 pounds and the size of a small car..EC

naturephoto1
16-Feb-2007, 08:42
Ken,
Are you going to use it only in the studio?? My first 4x5 was a P2 and it was a wonderful camera. It was 14 pounds and the size of a small car..EC

Hi Evan,

Really the size of a small car? ;) :eek:

Rich

Frank Petronio
16-Feb-2007, 09:25
Nothing beats a P on a Gitzo 5 -- if you're strong enough to lug it, don't let them tease you -- because you are probably a dangerous man in a fight with those muscles ;)

Ken Lee
16-Feb-2007, 10:29
For now, I will use it in my "studio" - that is, the dining room, where I spread a black cloth on the floor next to the window. Mother Nature provides the "studio lighting".

We'll see how well I can carry it around. I haven't sold the Wisner... yet :-)

erie patsellis
16-Feb-2007, 13:15
Gee,
14# is kinda light, lug a C1 around for a while out in the woods with a 5 series gitzo and film holders, a few lenses and the other misc. stuff. The entire pack weighs around 30#, and I carry the Gitzo on a strap.

erie

Gary Suitter
16-Feb-2007, 17:12
Horseman LE minus geared swing. A sturdy studio camera with fine movements. Going very reasonably on Ebay these days