Discontinuance of Arca-Swiss Discovery

[r.e.]

Maybe I'm the last to know, but I just found out that Arca-Swiss has stopped making the Discovery. The dealer from whom I bought mine doesn't know why. Does anyone here know when this happend, and/or the reason? The Discovery is a terrific camera, and this strikes me as a real shame. Looks like the least expensive Arca-Swiss now available is about US$3.000.

[David A. Goldfarb]

They might have been unable to compete with the second-hand market at that price point. Maybe it just doesn't make sense for them to produce an entry-level camera in the age of the eBay.

[archivue]

i believe that they stopped producing the 171 frame... and they reserve the 141 for the top of the line !

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Wow, this would be a bummer. I've always thought the Discovery was one of the best values for the money of any new LF camera. It had all the quality of the more expensive ARCA-SWISS models and was fully compatible with the full line of ARCA-SWISS accessories, but was affordable enough to serve as an excellent entry level camera. I often wondered how ARCA-SWISS could produce such a high quality camera at such a reasonable price - especially with the way the dollar has declined vs. the euro over the last six years.

Kerry

[Frank Petronio]

When you figure out Arca's management decision-making logic, let me know. You shouldn't have any trouble figuring out the female gender or metaphysics, much less where the Holy Grail is.

[Ken Lee]

Frank - Your sense of humor is wonderful !

[r.e.]

The idea behind Discovery, as I understand it, is that it gave people a chance to buy into a high quality camera system, at an attractive price, the payoff being that those people would continue as Arca-Swiss customers and eventually buy additional Arca-Swiss modules.

Indeed, I found out about the apparent discontinuance because I am extremely happy with the camera and I am thinking of buying additional modules. As part of that, I wanted to know what the Discovery is currently selling for. To my surprise, I found that none of the usual dealers is offering it and that it is no longer available. The dealer who sold me one did not say "it is out of stock"; rather, he said "I don't know why they have stopped offering it." The Robert White and Badger Graphic websites not longer mention it, and B&H lists it as "discontinued".

If Arca-Swiss wanted to, it could easily replace the 171mm Discovery with a 141mm Discovery, and for that matter raise the price somewhat. But apparently it is not doing that.

This doesn't affect current Discovery owners (one either wants to convert to the 141mm standard or not, and in my case I don't see the point - it looks to me like a pretty overt exercise in decreed, arbitrary obsolesence), but it will unquestionably have an impact on people, including students, who are entering large format and for whom the new base Arca-Swiss price tag of US$3,000 is a significant disincentive. Perhaps they intend to offer the more expensive camera to students, with proof of registry in a photographic institution, at a discount? If so, I wonder whether it is wise, in the current large format market, to write off people like myself who are not students, but who want to use large format.

Pesonally, I would never have purchased an Arca-Swiss had the Discovery not been available. The result is that I have become a loyal Arca-Swiss customer (despite what I think of this 141mm business) who is considering buying additional modules.

The decision of Arca-Swiss to reject the strategy that brought me, and others, to the Arca-Swiss brand is certainly interesting. I guess I'm curious to know the answer to the question: Why?

[Dave Parker]

The decision of Arca-Swiss to reject the strategy that brought me, and others, to the Arca-Swiss brand is certainly interesting. I guess I'm curious to know the answer to the question: Why?

Have you wrote them and asked? There could be any number of reasons to discontinue a certain product and the best place to get the answer is from the company that made the choice to discontinue it. Who knows, perhaps they have a new model in the works for the near future.

Dave

[r.e.]

Dave,

Yes, as I said, they may have a new approach in the works. But if so, they have apparently neglected to tell their dealers, or at least the one that I use, about this new approach.

As for writing Arca-Swiss, read Mr. Petronio's post :) Communication is not their strong suit.

[archivue]

nowadays it becomes easy to find a second hand Fline 171...

[r.e.]

archivue,

It has been 12-18 months since I have looked at used prices for Arca-Swiss cameras. When I last looked, vallue was holding pretty well. If you are saying that a second-hand F-Line 171mm in excellent condition can now be bought for close to the price of a new Discovery, what it tells me is that the bottom has fallen out of the large format market. Either that or buyers are convinced that the 141mm cameras are a big improvement over the 171mm cameras and that the latter are obsolete. As I say, I have not been following pricing.

[Songyun]

Last time I checked Ebay there was a 171 Classic sold under 1200, I guess that is about the price of a Discovery.
I really like Arca F-line camera, but I can not afford it, maybe until I graduate and get a job, but by that time, I don't think I will have as much time to shoot photos as now.

With the new 141 standard, I guess there is not much difference between F-classic and F-classic"field". The regular 141 classic should be more popular.

[neil poulsen]

It may be getting a little tight for Arca. We know what's been happening to large format. Hopefully, they have a winner in their 6x9, since one can use a digital back with it. Would we be surprised if Arca went under? Very sad, yes. Under? Probably not.

Why build a camera that competes at much lower cost with your flagship product? This is one of the few decisions they've made that makes sense. No offense to anyone, but that Misura is rather a strange bird.

I think it would have made more sense to skip that camera, come out with super-light similar to the 141mm camera designed for field use, and retain the 171mm version as their studio camera. There are advantages to having a bellows that isn't packed so tightly around the 4x5 frame. It would have made for less tooling, too.

$0.02. KerChing.

[Frank Petronio]

I am only an equipment fondeler (per the Leica forum) but my take is that unless you are a backpacker, the differences between the 171 and 141 in actual pack size and weight are hard to justify cost-wise. The most significant difference is packing lenses onto smaller lensboards -- and that is easily remedied with an 171 Arca to Technika adapter.

Kerry T has the right idea, assemble a hybrid suited to your needs. The only issue is you have to haunt eBay and jump on every auction because this stuff is few and far between.

[GPS]

It may be getting a little tight for Arca. We know what's been happening to large format. Hopefully, they have a winner in their 6x9, since one can use a digital back with it. Would we be surprised if Arca went under? Very sad, yes. Under? Probably not.

Why build a camera that competes at much lower cost with your flagship product? This is one of the few decisions they've made that makes sense. No offense to anyone, but that Misura is rather a strange bird.

I think it would have made more sense to skip that camera, come out with super-light similar to the 141mm camera designed for field use, and retain the 171mm version as their studio camera. There are advantages to having a bellows that isn't packed so tightly around the 4x5 frame. It would have made for less tooling, too.

$0.02. KerChing.

Arca is doing well. The fact that 6x9 is getting stronger because of digital backs is good for Arca too. See also their new hand holdable 4x5 and 6x9 cameras - they know where to go. The fact that big LF manufacturers are leaving is good news for the smaller ones. The secretiveness of AS is a part of their Swiss mentality and can be used as a selling point too, ironically.

[Herb Cunningham]

If you look at Alpa and Leica and their business practices, they all follow the same logic that Mercedes did for so many years.

It is a calculated decision to build and sell really good stuff and to hell with the price.
Of course this puts them in a niche.


Can't fault them for that. I have a 171 and like it.

[Martin Courtenay-Blake]

When you figure out Arca's management decision-making logic, let me know. You shouldn't have any trouble figuring out the female gender or metaphysics, much less where the Holy Grail is.

Easy Frank...they're European - 'nuff said.
As far as the other three: Females are complicated beyond beyond all comprehension so we shouldn't even try to figure them out.
Metaphysics simply cannot exist as everything in the universe, known or otherwise, is governed by the laws of physics - even if we haven't discovered them yet, therefore, the concept that there is something beyond or outside the world of physics that interacts with matter as if it were real is a complete contradiction and cannot exist. If there is any measurable action or reaction ascribed to a so called metaphysical force it must belong to the realm of physics...we just don't know it yet. (I do not include religion in this argument for obvious reasons)
Finally everyone in the world knows that the Holy Grail lies under the floor of Rosslyn Chapel near Edinburgh (no matter what it actually is it is definately there) My reasoning is based on the fact that I too reside near Edinburgh and I can really feel the force from it. Based on my own argument that even though this could be construed as a metaphysical reaction that means, as any perceived metaphysical reaction must in reality obey the laws of physics and therefore be real it must be there...see.
I correct my comment about the female gender....they are metaphysical.

Martin

[David A. Goldfarb]

Arca-Swiss is a nice system, but how can a new $1200 Discovery compete with a used $250 Sinar F or F1 and/or $500 4x5" Sinar P ? At these prices a beginner interested in a monorail might as well buy the Sinar as a starter camera, invest in good lenses, and then if they decide that a new Arca-Swiss F or M line better suits their working methods, then just sell the Sinar and buy the new Arca.

[r.e.]

My dealer said that to the best of his recollection, the price for a Discovery just before it was discontinued was about $1500. If that is correct, and if it is true that one can buy an F-Line off E-bay for under $1200 (which was certainly not the case 18 months ago), I can see why the Discovery would no longer be offered. For that matter, if a used F-line costs under $1200, one has got to wonder what the market is for a new camera at $3000.

It's also possible that the Discovery was just too capable for the price and that a lot of the owners are not buying additional components. I just finished using mine, along with a Mamiya 6x7 rangefinder and a Nikon digital, to do a presentation for a book. Given the focal lengths that I use, and the subject matter, it was very much up to the task.

Re Mr. Petronio's comment: "I am only an equipment fondeler (per the Leica forum) but my take is that unless you are a backpacker, the differences between the 171 and 141 in actual pack size and weight are hard to justify cost-wise." Ironically, one of the main reasons that I, and probably a fair number of people, bought a Discovery is that I wanted to be able to travel with the camera and carry it in a backpack. Its suitability for that was one of its selling points.

I didn't know that Arca-Swiss is producing a handholdable 4x5. Will have to check it out.

[archivue]

the big advantage of the 141 Field is the bellow : from 47 to 360(at infinity) with just one bellow and full movements with wide angles !
i used to have a 171x171, and a 6x9... i sold the complete 171 in order to buy the 141 to 110 conversion kit, and i'm very happy with it !

[r.e.]

archivue,

If I understand, what you are saying is that what one acheives, by transfering from 171mm to 141mm, is the convenience of not having to change bellows, assuming that one is using lenses that require that bellows/rail range and that one would need to change bellows duirng a shoot, at a cost of about $1500 plus. Also, could I ask, why does it make sense to sell an entire Arca-Swiss F-Line camera to make this transition, especially if it is true, as someone said earlier in this thread, that a used F-Line is worth less than $1200?

If I misunderstand, I'd love to know what I don't get about this.

[Frank Petronio]

Well that it is just the thing about these Arcas, Ebonys, Linhofs isn't it? You can easily spend more than $3000 on one of their beautiful, superbly designed and crafted photographic instruments.

Or you can spend a fraction of that and get an almost as nice -- and 100% as capable -- Sinar or older model of any of the top brands. Remember the reality check that better photographers than any of us have made better photos than any of us, using cheap, dodgey, primative equipment.

You don't buy $3000 4x5 large format cameras because you absolutely need their feature set. Admit it -- you buy them because they are really nice things to have.

[Dave_B]

You don't buy $3000 4x5 large format cameras because you absolutely need their feature set. Admit it -- you buy them because they are really nice things to have.
__________________
http://www.frankpetronio.com



Yes, it's true. I confess, it's a want, not a need. I feel so much better now that I have admitted it. Doctor, where do I pay the bill?
Cheers,
Dave B.

[r.e.]

Frank,

Actually, I bought the Discovery because it was capable and light. I have taken it all over the world, and I don't think that I could have done the same with a Sinar. And believe me, I am acutely aware of the fact that the decision to go with Arca-Swiss pretty much ruled out, in a way that a Sinar would not, the ability to rent the occasional lens when I needed something different short-term.

For me, the potential downside to the Discovery was the 30cm rail. But I use two lenses with the Discovery (150mm and 240mm), one lens with my Mamiya rangefinder (80mm) and two lenses with my Nikon digital (35mm and 85mm). So it has not been, in my case, a hardship. This goes back to when I was a kid, when my father taught me about photography with an ancient (1950s) fixed lens Yashica Twin Lens Reflex :) And I am ever-mindful of the fact that Cartier Bresson, if I understand correctly, used a 50mm lens for his entire career. Indeed, when I was thinking about large format, I came across a post on this very site in which someone quoted somebody or other to the effect that if you can't do good photography with a 150mm lens (for 4x5) there is something the matter. That post has stuck with me.

That said, I had weak knees tonight and bought one of the Nikkor 120mm Macro lenses that B&H is selling for $300. Not sure what I am going to do with it, or whether it is true that large format Macro lenses really do give better results at 1:1 and larger magnifications, but I guess I'm going to find out.

Fundamentally, I agree, if I have not misinterpreted you, with the gist of what you are saying. Let me add, I have read that you have a weakness for Leicas. I don't know much about those cameras, but I have had a Mamiya rangefinder for the last year, and I must say that it has become my favourite camera. I just like the way that a rangefinder handles and focuses. Not rational, but there you have it. My current project is to become competent at using it without using the viewfinder to focus, just estimating distances and using the engraving on the barrel. As much as I enjoy the rather deliberate process of large format, I'm also interested in the idea "f22 and be there". And certainly, the project that I just finished, a presentation for a book, on which I have a lot riding, was the better for using all three cameras, each of which resulted in different kinds of images.

Cheers.

[archivue]

Also, could I ask, why does it make sense to sell an entire Arca-Swiss F-Line camera to make this transition, especially if it is true, as someone said earlier in this thread, that a used F-Line is worth less than $1200?
my 4x5 wasn't a field version, so both standards were In 171 ! I sold it, and was able to buy the conversion set for my 6x9... so when travelling with my "new 4x5", the camera is smaller, and i don't have to carry several bellows, and using the 6x9 or the 4x5, all my lens are mounted on 110 lensboards !
sorry for my poor french-english !

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

If may add my 0,02 euro to this discussion.
The answer to the question : "Does it make sense or not to change from a 171 mm Arca Swiss system to the new 141 mm system ?" might not be the same in different parts of the world.

For example I've never seen in Northern America washing machines like we have in Europe, 40 cm wide (15"-3/4). Probably under the size of one cubic metre (35 cubic feet) no washing machine would ever find a customer on the other side of the Atlantic (seen from the Arca Swiss side).
I must confess that I've mostly toured the West, where there is a lot of available space ;-) so this might be a reason why I never saw any 40 cm wide washing machine there ;-)

Those who know the average surface in a Tokyo appartment may understand the issue as well.

-----------

Personnaly as an amateur I entered the Arca Swiss system with a second-hand 6x9 F-classic bought for significantly less than a new Discovery ; I was never attracted by the 171 line of 4"x5" models as my fist view camera.
But our washing machine is a 40 cm model. This might explain the choice ;-)

Eventually after 6 years I succumbed to the 110-141 extension kit, but there, I agree with Frank P. :
it is such a really nice thing to have as an arcaphile LF-er !

[archivue]

as a matter of fact, in our washing machine, we cannot clean the 171 bellow !
Considering the space of flat in tokyo, when you are a fashion victim, and have some money to spent, you can't buy a new type of stuff... but you can update your very hold (1 year old) Ipod, to buy the new one...

[neil poulsen]

the big advantage of the 141 Field is the bellow : from 47 to 360(at infinity) with just one bellow and full movements with wide angles !
i used to have a 171x171, and a 6x9... i sold the complete 171 in order to buy the 141 to 110 conversion kit, and i'm very happy with it !

That's very interesting. I wasn't aware that was possible on the 141mm. By way of comment, I purchased the leather compendium bellows, and I'm able to use it up to 210mm. The majority of my shooting is under this focal length, so I get about 75% of the same benefit. My second bellows is the 700mm, which works fine for 250mm on up. It's a bit bulky, though.

Vanity being exactly the point, the leather bellows makes the camera look really neat, too.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Did Arca-Swiss also discontinue the F-Line Field camera? I was looking at one and BH shows it as discontinued. I am sure I am WAY out of the loop on this.

[c marks]

Wow, I am glad I got my Discovery when I did. I thought it was one of the best bargins around. I got access into the Arca line for half of other nodels. It still can take the other accessories too to upgrade to meet my needs. For me the things that it was missing were inconsequential to use.

Now with a couple of extra accessories, I feel fully capable and content with a camera.

Having seen the 141mm setup I am not convinced they are any better than the 171. Since I only have a 30cm rail, I do not need a bellows any longer than the wide angle one-since it cover the full 30cm. The size difference is not that great considering the bellows sticks out beyond the 141 frame.

So if you are interested in the modular aspect of the Arca a Discovery (used or new) is a great way to get into it.

[r.e.]

Looking forward, the question is how long Arca-Swiss will continue to support 171mm. Archivue says, in an earlier post, that the company has stopped producing the 171mm frame. If true, that is major news. Is it just idle, alarmist, misinformed speculation on his part, or is it true? If it is true, why isn't Arca Swiss revealing this, and how come Archivue knows this and the rest of us don't? Also, if it is true, one must wonder what the future is for 171mm support generally.

It is one thing for Arca-Swiss to be non-communicative, it is another to fail to address a basic question: how long can people who own Arca-Swiss cameras, to a 171mm specification, expect to be able to buy components for that standard? How come the discontinuance of the Discovery, which uses the 171mm standard, was not even accompanied by a press release? Volunteering the answer to the question of how long there will be support for 171mm would seem to be the minimum that what one might expect in terms of transparency, also known as respect for customers, whether from Besancon or Chicago.

[Frank Petronio]

They weren't too great about supporting their old line once they went to the F-Line design back in the 80s...

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

It is one thing for Arca-Swiss to be non-communicative, it is another to fail to address a basic question: how long can people who own Arca-Swiss cameras, to a 171mm specification, expect to be able to buy components for that standard?

Have you tried asking them this simple question directly? I think you would be much more likely to get an answer to a direct email or a phone call than from an anonymous posting in a discusion group which they may not ever see.

They don't usually frequent the online forums, but whenever I have asked a question directly I've always received a prompt, thorough and friendly response. I'd recommend you try that route before you label them as "non-communicative".

Kerry

[r.e.]

Mr. Thalmann,

I have met Mr. Vogt and I have dealt with Ms. Graham-Henry. They are both very nice to talk to. But I think that it is obvious that Arca-Swiss is non-communicative and that it does not volunteer information. I deal with two other small companies that high-end gear, one in Grenoble that makes motion picture cameras and one in Wisconsin that makes sound recorders, and the difference in attitude is remarkable.

Maybe this forum, as a forum (i.e, in the name of the owner and membership), could do a lot of people a favour by sending a letter to M. Vogt and Ms. Graham-Henry asking for an answer to this question.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

They weren't too great about supporting their old line once they went to the F-Line design back in the 80s...


Frank,

Do you mean "supporting" or "promoting"? There is a difference. I know you like to bash ARCA-SWISS for their lack of a web presence (yes, they are one of the few holdouts in that respect), but have you really had problems getting support for ARCA-SWISS products you own?

I've personally never had any problems getting parts or repairs for my ARCA-SWISS products. Bob Watkins at Precision Camera Works, their authorized US repair center, has always been a pleasure to deal with. Have you had a problem obtaining parts or repair services from Precision Camera Works?

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Maybe this forum, as a forum (i.e, in the name of the owner and membership), could do a lot of people a favour by sending a letter to M. Vogt and Ms. Graham-Henry asking for an answer to this question.

Why should this forum send them a letter? You're the one with the question. Why don't you send them an email or call them on the phone. I'm sure they'd be happy to answer your question, but you have to ask it first.

Kerry

[r.e.]

Mr. Thalmann,

Actually, I think that anyone who owns a 171mm Arca-Swiss has this question. The whole point is that the company should make a general statement about this to Arca-Swiss owners, not that individual owners should be sending e-mails to Besancon. I mean, why wouldn't Mr. Vogt tell Arca-Swiss owners, as a group, where they stand?

By the way, I share your regard for Precision Camera Works. They fixed my Arca-Swiss B-1 ballhead, which was defective. And I thank Ms. Graham-Henry for telling me, at the New York Photo Show, that my ballhead might be defective despite having been bought well after the problem with the B-1s was supposed to be resolved. I think that it is great that they fixed it. On the other hand, I paid US$35 to send it to them so that they could fix a defect in the product that they sold me after they claimed that the defect was resolved. Anyway, the ballhead now works the way that it is supposed to. But you know, I learned something from that experience. If you don't ask, they don't volunteer.

Maybe there is something to be said for asking as a group. And what, exactly, is the downside? Is there a reason why Arca-Swiss owners, and for that matter the large format community generally, wouldn't ask Arca-Swiss what its intentions are about support for the 171mm standard?

As for your statement that my post is anonymous, what are you talking about? Apart from the fact that that statment has nothing to do with the substance of what I am saying, the owners of this site have my full name and a completely legitimate e-mail address. If I choose not to use my full name on the internet, that is my business, and irrelevant to this discussion. Last week, my closest friend had his Chase Manhattan account raided for $2000 due to identity theft. And it would have been a lot worse had he not caught on to what was happening, by accident, two days after it started ($1,000 each day for two days). I'm not big on revealing a whole lot of personal information on the internet. If you want to use that to attack my credibility, that is your business, but frankly not impressive. What's really ironic about your attack is that I spent part of tonight buying a fairly expensive lens from a long-standing member of this forum, who apparently isn't having a lot of trouble figuring out who I am. Really, the better question is, why would you, in the context of this discussion, go off, with all due respect, on a tangent that is both irrelevant and completely out of sync with what a lot of completely legitimate people think is going on with the relationship between the internet, privacy and personal financial security? I'd like you to respond to that question, or else have the class to apologize.

[BradS]

Why should this forum send them a letter? You're the one with the question. Why don't you send them an email or call them on the phone. I'm sure they'd be happy to answer your question, but you have to ask it first.

Kerry

Kerry,
I'm sure it never occured to you but...I mean...after all you *ARE* Kerry Thalmann.

Again, I'm sure you don't think so, but you are a minor celebrity in the LF community. I'm not saying that you get special treatment from LF camera manufacturers but....maybe? You think? I'm sure that Arca-Swiss are a first class company to deal with but, please...check your assumptions.

[Frank Petronio]

Kerry,
Point taken, and yes, what happened 25 years ago under different managers is quite another situation. I wasn't even a photographer when they switched over to the F-line design.

However, three local Rochester professional photographers I worked with, and one whom I bought an older Arca from, all told me the same story of how, quite suddenly, Arca stopped making parts for their older cameras once the new designs were launched. That's when people switched over to Sinars...

So I offer that tale as a cautionary warning with regards to expecting to find a 171mm part in a couple of years. Or any odd part from any niche manufacturer that makes large format cameras. Luckily there is always eBay, which beats the heck out of waiting for Shutterbug to arrive!

I don't use Arca any longer so my complaints about their lack of having a website don't count for any more worth than the pixels on this webpage ;-0 I just find it incredible that they don't but apparently people are still happy to spend money with them because their products are so good.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Actually, I think that anyone who owns a 171mm Arca-Swiss has this question.

I don't. I've got all the 171mm-specific ARCA-SWISS accessories I'll ever need - probably more than I need. The only things 171mm-specific are format frames, the bellows frames and the lens boards and adapters. Believe me, I personally have more of all than I'll ever need. If I ever ruin a bellows (and run out of spares), I can always have a new bellows mounted to my old 171mm frames. I'm not trying to boast or brag here, just pointing out that I'll be able to happily keep taking pictures or the rest of my life with my ARCA-SWISS cameras whether or not they continue to produce 171mm specific parts and accessories. It's this very reason that I've avoided "upgrading" to the new 141mm format frames. I'm just too heavily invested in the older 171mm compatible system. Obviosuly, not eveyone is as heavily invested in the 171mm ARCA-SWISS system - which is exactly hy YOU should aks them YOIR question directly. You're the only one who has asked this specific quesion here in this forum. Why not try asking the people who can actually answer it?


The whole point is that the company should make a general statement about this to Arca-Swiss owners, not that individual owners should be sending e-mails to Besancon. I mean, why wouldn't Mr. Vogt tell Arca-Swiss owners, as a group, where they stand?

Pretty hard to do if they don't even know the question exists. That's why I suggested you contact them directly. You're the one who posed the original question. Nobody here has been able to answer it for you. So, I merely suggested you directly contact the people best equipped to give you an accurate answer. For some reason, you seem reluctant to contact the people most likely to be of assistance. I'm not sure why you don't want to contact them directly, but I've always found it's the most expedient way to get a complete, accurate answer (whether you're dealing with ARCA-SWISS, or any other company).


But you know, I learned something from that experience. If you don't ask, they don't volunteer.

Then why don't you ask them? Seriously, I'm not trying to be argumentative, you just seem determined to avoid permitting them from giving you an answer to your question.


Maybe there is something to be said for asking as a group. And what, exactly, is the downside? Is there a reason why Arca-Swiss owners, and for that matter the large format community generally, wouldn't ask Arca-Swiss what its intentions are about support for the 171mm standard?

We're not a homogenous group. We are a group of diverse individuals. As far as I know, this group collectively has never contacted ANY manufacturer with a question regarding their plans or their equipment. Most people post a question here and if no one provides a satisfactory answer, pointers are usually given to someone who can answer the question directly. My suggestion that you contact the manufacture to get the information you seek is not unique. It happens on a regular basis and isn't specific to you or ARCA-SWISS. What is unique is your stance that the group as a whole should be reponsible or getting an answer to your specific question.


As for your statement that my post is anonymous, what are you talking about? Apart from the fact that that statment has nothing to do with the substance of what I am saying, the owners of this site have my full name and a completely legitimate e-mail address. If I choose not to use my full name on the internet, that is my business, and irrelevant to this discussion. Last week, my closest friend had his Chase Manhattan account raided for $2000 due to identity theft. I'm not big on revealing a whole lot of personal information on the internet. If you want to use that to attack my credibility, that is your business, but frankly not impressive. What's really ironic about your attack is that I spent part of tonight buying a fairly expensive lens from a long-standing member of this forum, who apparently isn't having a lot of trouble figuring out who I am. Really, the better question is, why would you, in the context of this discussion, go off, with all due respect, on a tangent that is both irrelevant and completely out of sync with what a lot of completely legitimate people think is going on with the relationship between the internet, privacy and personal financial security?

Your anononimity is none of my business. And my response wan't an "attack". Sorry if it seemed that way. I was honestly trying to help you get an answer to your question by suggesting you contact the manufacturer directly. Perhaps I should have phrased my response differently. You're new here, at least posting under this ID. The only posts you've made to date in this forum, under this user ID are in this thread. I know absolutely nothing about you other than what you've posted in this thread. From what I see in this thread, it seems like you have a personal ax to grind with ARCA-SWISS, but rather than do it yourself you want the entire group to take up your cause. You seem more intent on making this a public issue than actually getting your question answered. Are those assumptions on my part? You bet, but since I know nothing else about you, those assumptions are based on the only thing I do know about you - your behaviour in this thread.

On the other hand, if you'd had actually tried to contact ARCA-SWISS directly to get an answer to your question and didn't receive a response, I'd be more sympathtic to your situtation. However, when you won't even go to the trouble to try contacting the manufacturer directly, I have a hard time understanding why you expect this group collectively to do so on your behalf.

Sorry if that seems harsh and I certainly don't mean to make you feel unwelcome here. The more the merrier. I usually try to be as helpful as I can, but I do expect, at some point, people will make a minimal effort to help themselves, too.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Kerry,
I'm sure it never occured to you but...I mean...after all you *ARE* Kerry Thalmann.

Again, I'm sure you don't think so, but you are a minor celebrity in the LF community. I'm not saying that you get special treatment from LF camera manufacturers but....maybe? You think? I'm sure that Arca-Swiss are a first class company to deal with but, please...check your assumptions.

And yet no one is clamoring for my autograph and I'm not fighting off the paparazzi at every turn.

Seriously, I did form a professional relationship with ARCA-SWISS when I worked on an article on the history of their company a couple years ago. Ironically (based on the comments of others), I found them to be the exact opposite of non-communicative. They overwhelmed me with information. They sent me digitized copies of engineering drawings going all the way back to the 1940s, brochures and catalogs from the 1950s - 1980s. Basically, everything asked for, and more. I actually felt bad I couldn't use more of it in the article due to space limitation in the magazine. They were easily the most generous in providing historical information of any company I've ever worked with on an article - and many other companies have been quite forthcoming and eagerly answered all my questions. So, I've seen a side of ARCA-SWISS most people haven't.

While I use and recommend their products, that is a personal recommendation. Other than that article on the history of the company, I have never actually had a review published on any of their products. I've also used other brands in the past, and I'm sure if you use Google you can find comments from me on Wisner, Canham, Linhof, Anba-Ikeda, Toho and other brands as well. I don't go out of my way to heap praise on ARCA-SWISS. It just happens to be the brand I use these days and I'm very happy with it. You will find several others here who feel the same way. That doesn't mean I think it's the perfect camera for all users and all uses (I'm convinced no such camera exists - or can exist. Believe me, I've searched high and low for the holy grail of LF cameras and have yet to find it).

As to my "fame" (blush, blush), my 7 year old thinks I'm famous every time she sees my name in a magazine. If she thinks I'm famous, that's good enough for me.

Kerry

[BradS]

Well, I spent too many of my formative years in and around holly-weird to bother asking people for their autographs but if ever I run into you, I'd be very pleased to make your acquaintance. Perhaps, you'd sir for a quick portrait?
:)

[GPS]

I can just confirm what Kerry said. Whenever I needed information from AS I asked them directly and I got it in a very pleasant personal manner. If you, Brad, used so much time as you did to quarrel with Kerry, to ask them, by now you could have your answer.

[r.e.]

I don't. I've got all the 171mm-specific ARCA-SWISS accessories I'll ever need - probably more than I need.

Pretty hard to do if they don't even know the question exists.

Your anononimity is none of my business.

I wasn't talking about your personal situation.

Unless they are brain dead, of course they know that the question exists.

I'm pleased to see that you recognize that your comments about my identity were inappropriate.

Your assumption that I have never dealt with Arca-Swiss directly is wrong.

Your suggestion that I have some kind of axe to grind with Arca-Swiss, like your other assertions, is also wrong, and indeed ignores my express statement in this very thread that I am a loyal customer of the company.

The question that I have raised is, why wouldn't the large format community, as a community, ask Arca-Swiss what its position is on support for the 171mm standard?

If you are opposed to the question, fine. But, you know, the fact that this kind of question hasn't been asked before of a manufacturer is kind of beside the point. The question is, if there is a community, should it be asked, and, if not why not?

And preferably, most people are capable of talking about whether this question should be asked without talking about their personal situation and without attacking the person who has raised the issue.

Speaking for myself, I think that it is obvious that Arca-Swiss should say publically what its position is on support for the 171mm standard. Indeed, I can't imagine why it wouldn't. Even less can I undertand why someone would suggest, as you have, why this is a matter that should be dealt with, customer by customer, in personal e-mail correspondence with the company. Not least for two reasons; first, that your suggestion would result in an awful lot of e-mail volume, and secondly, because the company's ability to correspond in languages other than French is in fact limited. I'd leave it at that, were it not for your erroneous assumptions/assertions: I write fluently in French and have indeed corresponded with Arca-Swiss directly, and having done so, I also know that your idea that anyone who has an Arca-Swiss camera, and who wants to know where the company is at when it comes to 171mm support, should just fire off an e-mail, is inconsistent with the company's ability to deal with languages other than French and the reality of the marketplace. Believe it or not, there are Arca-Swiss owners who don't speak French. Or, for that matter, English.

[Capocheny]

If someone has an Arca Swiss F in great condition they'd like to sell for $1200, please let me know as I know of an interested buyer! :)

Cheers

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Your assumption that I have never dealt with Arca-Swiss directly is wrong.

I did not assume you NEVER dealt directly with ARCA-SWISS. I simply suggested that if you want an answer to your specific question about ongoing support for the 171mm standards, contacting them directly would be the most expedient way to get an answer.

So, have you asked them this particular question? If so, what was their response?


The question is, if there is a community, should it be asked, and, if not why not?

And exactly who in this community do you suggest ask them this question? There isn't a single point of contact for this community. There are forum monitors, but it's not their job to act as a point of contact between the forum and the manufacturers. Their job is to simply keep the forums civil and on topic. ARCA-SWISS does not seem to be monitoring this forum. So, wouldn't asking them directly be the most expedient way to get an answer to your question? Then if you felt it was important, you could post the answer here or the benefit of others. Wouldn't that be much faster and more efficient than posting your question repeatedly in this thread and hoping that someone from ARCA-SWISS eventually sees it, or somehow "the community" asks them for you?


And preferably, most people are capable of talking about whether this question should be asked without talking about their personal situation and without attacking the person who has raised the issue.

Suggesting you contact the manufacturer as the best way to get an answer to your question was not meant as an attack. Sorry if my intentions weren't clear. I was actually trying to help you get an answer to your question in the most expedient way possible.

Kerry

[BradS]

I can just confirm what Kerry said. Whenever I needed information from AS I asked them directly and I got it in a very pleasant personal manner. If you, Brad, used so much time as you did to quarrel with Kerry, to ask them, by now you could have your answer.

Ahh, I wasn't quareling with Kerry. That was someone else. I was shamelessly flattering Kerry. There is a difference. Well, at least there is in my mind.

I don't own an Arca. I do not really have a personal interest in the matter. I was just trying to have some fun and lighten the mood a little. Guess I'll go pour myself another glass of wine and keep my nose out of this matter.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Speaking for myself, I think that it is obvious that Arca-Swiss should say publically what its position is on support for the 171mm standard. Indeed, I can't imagine why it wouldn't. Even less can I undertand why someone would suggest, as you have, why this is a matter that should be dealt with, customer by customer, in personal e-mail correspondence with the company. Not least for two reasons; first, that your suggestion would result in an awful lot of e-mail volume, and secondly, because the company's ability to correspond in languages other than French is in fact limited. I'd leave it at that, were it not for your erroneous assumptions/assertions: I write fluently in French and have indeed corresponded with Arca-Swiss directly, and having done so, I also know that your idea that anyone who has an Arca-Swiss camera, and who wants to know where the company is at when it comes to 171mm support, should just fire off an e-mail, is inconsistent with the company's ability to deal with languages other than French and the reality of the marketplace. Believe it or not, there are Arca-Swiss owners who speak neither French nor English.

Both Diane Graham-Henry and Martin Vogt speak excellent English. I'm sure either would be more than happy to answer your question.

The reason I suggested you contact them directly is they don't regularly monitor this forum. You will get a much more accurate answer by asking them directly than you will relying on the speculation of others - no matter how well intentioned.

Kerry

[r.e.]

Wouldn't that be much faster and more efficient than posting your question repeatedly in this thread and hoping that someone from ARCA-SWISS eventually sees it, or somehow "the community" asks them for you?Kerry

There you go again.

I raised the question once, as something that might be discussed as one approach. If it has been discussed further, it has been solely in response to posts of yours. Your statement that I am raising the issue repeatedly makes about as much sense as your initial dismissiveness based on alleged anonymity.

Why don't you just address the question, which is whether Arca-Swiss should be asked, in a way that requires a public commitment one way or the other (as distinct from some personal e-mail), what its position is about support for 171mm. Are you actually against this?

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

There you go again.

I raised the question once, as something that might be discussed as one approach. If it has been discussed further, it has been solely in response to posts of yours. Your statement that I am raising the issue repeatedly makes about as much sense as your initial dismissiveness based on alleged anonymity.

Deare r.e.,

I do not have an answer to your question. I suggested you contact ARCA-SWISS as a way to get that question answered. I'm sorry you took offense at that suggestion. I can offer you no further assistance in this matter. Therefore, I will leave it at that and move onto other threads where my input might prove more useful. I sincerely hope you get an answer to your question. Sorry I could not be of more help. Whatever answer you get, I hope you continue to enjoy using your ARCA-SWISS Discovery for many years to come and use it to create many beautiful images.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

...

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

The company's ability to correspond in languages other than French is in fact limited.

We sometimes read funny things here, not only boring technical things, but this assumption is one the funniest ever read here. Congratulations!

Ever heard of a European language named : German ? ;)

I wish that all of our readers and posters here could master at least 3 languages like Martin Vogt & his family do routinely.
Ever tried to switch from German, to French, to English with foreign correspondents on the phone all day ?

But, yes,I agree, since the number of Spanish / Hispanic speakers (and potential Arca Swiss customers) who, as far as know, have no mandatory regulations to speak English (about 27 million people according to the CIA, https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People )....

... then, Martin Vogt should take an intensive course in US-Spanish to better serve this potentially growing population of customers (at least if I read and understand correctly what Wikipedia says about the US population in the near future).

And since the proportion of Hawaian people interested by LF is probably much higher than in the other Fifty States, and since Hawaian is, according to the same CIA report, one of the official languages in the State of Hawai, Martin Vogt should probably take an intensive course in Hawaian as well if he wants to deal with Hawaian customers.

[GPS]

Ahh, I wasn't quareling with Kerry. That was someone else. I was shamelessly flattering Kerry. There is a difference. Well, at least there is in my mind.

I don't own an Arca. I do not really have a personal interest in the matter. I was just trying to have some fun and lighten the mood a little. Guess I'll go pour myself another glass of wine and keep my nose out of this matter.

My apologies to you BradS -the post was meant to address r.e's quarrels. First post in the morning, you know ...;-)

[archivue]

and the question is : internet web site (in german, english and french), what are they waiting for ?

[GPS]

...
I wish that all of our readers and posters here could master at least 3 languages like Martin Vogt & his family do [i]routinely.
Ever tried to switch from German, to French, to English with foreign correspondents on the phone all day ?

But, yes,I agree, since the number of Spanish / Hispanic speakers (and potential Arca Swiss customers) who, as far as know, have no mandatory regulations to speak English (about 27 million people according to the CIA, https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People )....

... then, Martin Vogt should take an intensive course in US-Spanish to better serve this potentially growing population of customers (at least if I read and understand correctly what Wikipedia says about the US population in the near future).

And since the proportion of Hawaian people interested by LF is probably much higher than in the other Fifty States, and since Hawaian is, according to the same CIA report, one of the official languages in the State of Hawai, Martin Vogt should probably take an intensive course in Hawaian as well if he wants to deal with Hawaian customers.

I myself speak fluently 5 languages and can use 2-5 other languages if need is but I strongly disagree with you, Emmanuel. Don't you think that Rumantsh (going stronger each day in Switzerland) should be much higher on Mr. Vogt's list to do? Forget Hawaiian, get real. Anyway, Rumantsh speakers have more money and their mountains have snow - that should be enough reason for Mr. Vogt to take them seriously. If now he understands the business...

[archivue]

from an unverified source, it looks like that all the familly start a chinese course ;-)

[GPS]

If that is true you know the answer at your own question about the web site. One thing at a time...

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

what are they waiting for ?
The pages written in Züricher-Schwitzertuestch are close to being completed ; the Bavarian pages are now OK and the Baseltuetsch is on its way to completion.
However, the translation into Rumantsch is still a difficult task because there is hardly any close equivalent in Rumantsch to 'Funktionsträger' and 'Segmentschwenkung' (GPS has a good point here).

[john borrelli]

I am an owner of an Arca Swiss Discovery. In December, I called several Arca Swiss Dealers no one had the Discovery's long bellows in stock. After reading this thread I can't help but make a connection between the lack of inventory then and the possible discontinuation of Discovery compatible equipment.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

I am an owner of an Arca Swiss Discovery. In December, I called several Arca Swiss Dealers no one had the Discovery's long bellows in stock. After reading this thread I can't help but make a connection between the lack of inventory then and the possible discontinuation of Discovery compatible equipment.

John,

Badger Graphic lists the 70cm long bellows in both 141mm and 171mm sizes on their web site (same price). Not sure if they have it in stock or not. B&H lists it as "Special Order" on their web site, but so is EVERY other ARCA-SWISS bellows. Evidently, this is not an item most dealers stock, but probably special order from the factory on an as needed basis.

Kerry

[r.e.]

[i]
but, yes,I agree, since the number of Spanish / Hispanic speakers (and potential Arca Swiss customers) who, as far as know, have no mandatory regulations to speak English (about 27 million people according to the CIA, https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People )....

... then, Martin Vogt should take an intensive course in US-Spanish to better serve this potentially growing population of customers (at least if I read and understand correctly what Wikipedia says about the US population in the near future).

And since the proportion of Hawaian people interested by LF is probably much higher than in the other Fifty States, and since Hawaian is, according to the same CIA report, one of the official languages in the State of Hawai, Martin Vogt should probably take an intensive course in Hawaian as well if he wants to deal with Hawaian customers.

Good Lord, how could a simple question about whether Arca-Swiss should tell us what its intentions are about the future of 171mm degenerate into personal attacks on individuals and, apparently now, attacks on entire cultures?

All I did was suggest that large format photographers, as a community, might ask Arca-Swiss what its position is about 171mm support. People can say that asking that question is a good idea or a bad idea. Hopefully, whether it is a good question can be discussed without personal attacks. It appears that there are a number of people who think that the question should not be asked. That's fine. Just explain your view, preferably without attacking and/or being condescending toward other people. As of yesterday, this was just a matter of Mr. Thalmann going after me. Now, apparently, it is a matter of ripping people who speak Spanish. With all due respect, this isn't cool. In fact, it is getting really ugly.

So let me repeat the question. Is there some point in the large format community, as a community, asking Arca-Swiss what its position is on 171mm support? Maybe the question should be asked, maybe it shouldn't. But surely it is possible for people to talk about this, preferably with mutual respect.

[Dave Parker]

Being honest with you r.e. as a manufacture, I don't think it really matters much if the question is asked or not, apparently the company has made their choice, as a manufacture, the reason to discontinue a product has to do with two simple facts:

1. Is it still making money?

2. Can we do it better..

That is really the only reasons to change product lines, of course, if it is not making money, they it makes no sense to continue making it. If they have found a way to do it better, then their future offerings will make us aware of it....

But for the mean time, there really is still a lot of options out there including ones that you can use to get the parts for your camera..

you really sound like your obsessing a bit over this

Dave

[Dave Parker]

Kerry,
I'm sure it never occured to you but...I mean...after all you *ARE* Kerry Thalmann.



Well now Brad, I do have to say, you were quite interesting in your statement?

:eek:

Dave

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

All I did was suggest that large format photographers, as a community, might ask Arca-Swiss what its positon is about 171mm support. People can say that asking that question is a good idea or a bad idea. Hopefully, whether it is a good question can be discussed without personal attacks. It appears that there are a number of people who think that the question should not be asked. That's fine. Just explain your view, preferably without attacking and/or being condescending toward other people. Hopefully that ain't difficult.

r.e.,

I went back and re-read the entire exchange from last night. I apologize for any part I played in leading the discussion of track.

I personally don't "think that the question should not be asked". nor have I seen anyone else suggest it shouldn't be asked. What I did suggest was that YOU be the one who does the asking.

When I re-read the previous night's discussions, I tried to see it from your perspective - as a new participant of this forum, and I think I may now have a better understanding of why the discussion went askew. I think it comes down to understanding what this forum is and how it works. From re-reading your posts, I got the impression you have participated in other online dsicussion groups that function differently than this one (sorry if that's not correct, it's just the impression I got). For example, you wrote:

"Maybe this forum, as a forum (i.e, in the name of the owner and membership), could do a lot of people a favour by sending a letter to M. Vogt and Ms. Graham-Henry asking for an answer to this question."

This forum doesn't have an owner. Quang-Tuan Luong is the original creator of this forum, but has never claimed ownership of the forum or it's content. It effectively belongs to everyone who participates. It has never functioned as unified body in any capacity. So asking the community to send a letter to ARCA-SWISS is like asking both no one, specifically, and everyone, in general, to write a letter. Unless someone steps forward and volunteers to write such a letter, it'll never get written. When I originally suggested you contact ARCA-SWISS directly with your question, I was effectively nominating you for the task. Who better to ask your question than you? This actually happens regularly here. Someone asks a question and no one knows the answer. So, the original poster contacts someone who can provide the answer and then closes the loop by posting their response.

You also wrote:

"Unless they are brain dead, of course they know that the question exists."

Perhaps ARCA-SWISS knows that some owners of 171mm cameras may want to know about their future plans, but as they don't monitor, or regularly participate in, this forum, they have no way of knowing the question exists HERE. Again, that was why I suggested you contact them directly with your question.

You may be wondering why they don't participate here. A legitimate question. I don't speak for ARCA-SWISS, but perhaps a little understanding of the history of this forum would help understand why ARCA-SWISS (and most other LF equipment manufacturers and LF dealers) elect not to participate.

One thing you might have noticed about this forum compared to photo.net, apug.org and other online forums is the complete lack of banner ads and links to sponsor' web site. This forum has no sponsors. Nor does it charge a subscription or any other fees. It is 100% non-commercial. That was the founder's original intent and has remained one of the basic principles of the operation of this forum in it's various incarnations. The goal has always been the free sharing of information without commercial bias or influence. It has always been maintained by volunteers and operated on donated resources. It was originally hosted on greenspun.com, and a few years ago some of the moderators at photo.net who were also responsible for maintaining greenspun.com decided unilaterally to move the discussion group and all of it's archives to the commercial photo.net service. They did so without Tuan's permission. You can read all about it here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lf-photonet.html).

As a result, many members of this forum, including the original creator and many long time contibutors, staunchly defend the non-commercial nature of this forum. Unlike other forums where posts disappear and posters get banned simply or saying something negative about a sponsor's product, people here are welcome and encouraged to share their experiences, both positive and negative with the products they've personally used without any fear of retribution. IMHO, that makes it the best forum in existence for asking and receiving honest feedback on LF products. That doesn't mean we know everything, but what we do know we share freely, without bias.

I haven't been told this directly by ARCA-SWISS, but other manufacturers and LF equipment dealers have told me they don't participate here out of respect for the non-commercial nature of this forum. They don't want to risk offending potential customers should anything they post be construed as promoting products they make or sell. At least in this forum, it's better to let their satisfied customers spread the word than risk incurring the wrath of those violently opposed to any commercial use of this forum. Personally, I find it refreshing to visit a site where I'm not constantly bombarded with banner ads and pop-ups, or postings that are nothing more than thinly disguised infomercials. While many here probably wouldn't oppose allowing manufacturers, or their representatives, to answer questions (technically, such activity is not against any forum rules), it's a fine line and a bit of a slippery slope. If one manufactuer crosses that line, it's not fair to others who are willing play by the rules. Personally, I like things the way they are. People can ask and answer questions without any pressure to cowtow to any manufacturers or corporate sponsors. And, if they don't get a satisfactory answer, they can contact the manufacturer directly and report back what they learn.

Nobody here (that I have seen) opposes you or your question. In fact, I was trying to encourage you to ask it in the way that will most likely get a real answer and not just more idle speculation. Sorry if my intent wasn't clear and my comments caused the discussion to veer off track.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

r. e.,

If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is your concern about ARCA-SWISS ceasing production of the 171mm standards? Are you worried about not being able to get lens boards, replacement bellows, parts and service for your camera? Other than the frames themselves, lens boards and bellows, I can't think of anything on the Discovery that is 171mm specific.

The frames are quite sturdy, and other than something catastrophic, I can't imagine ever needing to replace them. And if they are ever destroyed, it might make sense at such a time to switch over to the 141mm standards.

171mm boards with various holes sizes seem to be in stock and availalble new from several ARCA-SWISS dealers. Personally, I prefer to use smaller, cheaper boards. So, I have both 171mm - 110mm and 171mm to Linhof style adapter boards or my ARCA-SWISS cameras. My 4x5/4x10 camera uses 110mm boards. So, the 171mm adapter allows me to share lenses on these boards with my 7x17 camera with the 171mm front end - and still have the option to use 171mm boards for lenses that are too big to fit on the smaller 110mm boards. I also bought the 171mm - Linhof style adapter as I have a bunch of Linhof compatible boards from a previous camera and it was cheaper to buy the adapter than a whole slew of new 171mm boards. The reason I mention this is that these adapter are still available new, and it just so happens Midwest Photo Exchange has used samples of each currently listed on their web site for less than $200. So, for a little more than the cost of two new 171mm boards you can have a solution that will insure a steady supply of lens boards for your camera for decades to come. Plus, both the 110mm ARCA and Linhof style boards are less expensive and WAY smaller than the big 171mm ARCA boards. Linhof compatible boards are a bit of a defacto standard in 4x5 field cameras. They are plentiful on the used market and very affordable generic Linhof compatible boards are available new from a number of sources.

Badger and B&H currently list bellows in both the 171mm and 141mm sizes. Given the fact that you can still have any current 171mm bellows attached to the frames of a 50year old pre F-Line ARCA-SWISS model, I'm not too worried about not being able to get a bellows replaced in my lifetime. Unless you manage to damage your current bellows frames beyond repair, you should always be able to get a new bellows attached to your old frames - and the last time I checked, Precision Camera Works stocks replacement bellows frames for just such instances.

I'm not trying to say your question and concerns aren't legitimate I'm just trying to suggest some options that may address some of your concerns.

Finally, as I haven't talked to ARCA-SWISS about the issue I don't want to speculate too much, but it is possible they stopped selling the Discovery in order to set aside the remaining 171mm components to insure an adaquate supply of repair and replacement parts for existing owners of 171mm standard cameras. Just a hunch on my part. You'd have to ask ARCA-SWISS or Bob Watkins at Precision Camera Works to get an accurate asssessment of their stock of 171mm replacement parts.

Kerry