Forte finally fold - sad news

[Martin Reekie]

Nearly a year after restructing, following a period of receivership, Forte will cease production at the end of this week. This is a real shame. Forte have been producing a full range of graded and variable graded papers, films and chemicals in the old Kodak works in Vac, Hungary since 1922.

I had the news confirmed by Silverprint in the UK where I get my paper from. Production will cease on the 26th of January 2007.

I've used their Fortezo and Polywarmtone FB papers for many years and will really miss the quality of images I can produce on these products. I'm not in the position to buy up huge quantities but will certainly try and keep myself going for a year or two.

Their decision to finish production leaves Ilford as the only large company producing traditional materials for photographers. We must make sure they stay in business for as long as we can. I can hand coat my paper for platinum prints, I'd hate to get to the point where I have to hand coat my 8x10 negs too!

[alec4444]

Their decision to finish production leaves Ilford as the only large company producing traditional materials for photographers. We must make sure they stay in business for as long as we can. I can hand coat my paper for platinum prints, I'd hate to get to the point where I have to hand coat my 8x10 negs too!

This is a shame. I liked their papers too. There's still Ilford and Bergger (and I have to say I like Brilliant as well) but it's always sad when another option leaves the table.

I can understand the financial burdens of these large plants, but what surprises me is that smaller companies aren't coming in to make scaled down versions, which I'd imagine could easily be profitable...

--A

[paulr]

Ahhhh, fortezo was my only true gelatin silver love. At least I was prepared for this thanks to the first time they went under.

[Ted Harris]

Their decision to finish production leaves Ilford as the only large company producing traditional materials for photographers. We must make sure they stay in business for as long as we can. I can hand coat my paper for platinum prints, I'd hate to get to the point where I have to hand coat my 8x10 negs too!

Forte's passing is indeed sad news that has been discussed in detail in an earlier thread but their are still many others producing 'trditional materials' for photographers. Ilford is not alone. For film, in addition to Ilford, there is Kodak, efke, Foma, Orwo, and several others in Europe; Fuji in Japan an ERA an Lucky in China ... and I know I missed a few without consulting my references. A number of these also make paper. Additionally, Fotoimpex is currently searching for a production facility from whom they can source several papers that will be the same as or similar to some of the most popular Forte offerings.

[sanking]

This is a shame. I liked their papers too. There's still Ilford and Bergger (and I have to say I like Brilliant as well) but it's always sad when another option leaves the table.

--A

Were the Bergger papers not made by Forte?

Sandy King

[Alan Rabe]

As far as I know Bergger is made by Bergger, There is also Kentmere.

[Scott Davis]

Bergger spec'd the emulsion, Forte coated it for them. While there is no doubt Bergger will be looking for a new coating facility, the open questions will be who, and when.

[tim atherton]

As far as I know Bergger is made by Bergger, There is also Kentmere.


I remember at one time Bergger had a thing going with Arches for the paper base

[Pete Watkins]

God help us all in the U.K. if only Ilford survive. They treat us like crap. Try to get any film bigger than 10 x 8 and they treat you like some sort of freak. I'll coat my own film base/plates rather than buy film from a company that treats its home market so badly. If they go bust again I'll shed no tears.
Pete.

[Peter Lewin]

Re Mr. Watkins' comments about Ilford, I'm surprised that they seem unresponsive to their own UK market. When I spoke with their reps at Photo Expo in Nov '06 (obviously I'm talking about the U.S.) they were very committed to the LF market, and over on the APUG forum, Simon R Galley frequently responds to questions regarding Ilford. I have no connection with them other than using their products, but I want to remain optimistic!

[Turner Reich]

With Kodak closing it's facility in France it's so much bad news that I will buy some Ilford film right away. In the end it's going to be like hogs at feeding time. And that's not a pretty sight!

[John Kasaian]

With Kodak closing it's facility in France it's so much bad news that I will buy some Ilford film right away. In the end it's going to be like hogs at feeding time. And that's not a pretty sight!

Hogs at feeding time? How so?

If you shoot and/or print with Forte, you may be able to scoop some up rather cheaply for your freezer (Freestyle still has quite a bit of Arista.edu/Forte-iod stuff in stock) but that will only delay the inevitable switch to another manufacturer in the future.

IMHO HP-5+ knocked Fortepan 400's socks off, but it was rather nice to have at least one other conventional grained 400 ASA alternative around.

[Joseph O'Neil]

Hogs at feeding time? How so?
IMHO HP-5+ knocked Fortepan 400's socks off, but it was rather nice to have at least one other conventional grained 400 ASA alternative around.

I used Forte Pan 400 a lot. Other than the extended red sensitivity of Forte Pan, which I found nice for some situations, I have to agree. The true speed of Forte Pan 400 was, IMO, actually 200, and even then, it takes on average 10% to 20% longer to develop than either HP5 or Tri-X.

On the other hand, the stuff was dirt cheap (about 30% less per box of 25 compared to Tri-X or HP5 here in Canada), it did give a slightly different "look" than other films, and I found the quality control of the film - at least the stuff I bought - to be excellent. I still have about 100 sheets in the fridge. Going to miss it.

joe

[John Kasaian]

Joseph,

Thats sure a crummy deal. I've not done any speed testing with the Forte films I've shot which must explain my lack of enthusiasm for it.

I hope you can find a suitable replacement.

[Kevin Crisp]

I could find zero Arista-edu fiber base VC paper at Freestyle when I was there a couple weeks ago. (The weekend after this announcement -- I was looking for the Hungarian-Forte version.) I really liked this paper, though it had some occasional manufacturing flaws such as small splotches that appeared on either side of the paper. I have enough from my prior panic purchase following the first demise announcement to last a couple years. It is surprising to me that when people make "we still have ______" statements nobody mentions Oriental Seagull. Last time I used it this was an excellent product and it was in stock in Freestyle at a relatively reasonable price. They had some other papers I know nothing about (including a Russian one) and I got a little of those to try them out. I never used Forte film so have no thoughts on that.

[John Kasaian]

Kevin,

Scroll over "Specials" and click "Limited Offers" in the banner, I think on the second page you'll find a lot of Arista.edu paper listed. What I found interesting was that, if the site is up to date, they still have a Arista Graded Classic paper left which was IIRC Ilford Galerie.

[Carsten Wolff]

Here in Australia we can also get a (UK) brand called Fotospeed who offer a variety of papers. Any idea if they're standalone or rebranded? They look like original manufacturers....

[Wayne]

Dont fret boys, you can still do Darkroom with Lightroom and you can hope nobody will know if you dont tell them.


Wayne

[Ted Harris]

Wellllllllllllllll ..... I hesitate to resurrect any hope but there is a small chance that another bidder, one who wants to keep things going, may still be on the playing field.

Nothing firm but I do have it confirmed from two different unrelated sources that the doors may not close forever on Friday ....

[Andrew O'Neill]

Oh...if there is a God...please!!! I'll start going to church...

[Ted Harris]

Just keep looking ..... IF the doors don't close tomorrow it could well mean that new negotiations are going on. I hope to have something more definite by Monday.

[Wayne]

Just keep looking ..... IF the doors don't close tomorrow it could well mean that new negotiations are going on. I hope to have something more definite by Monday.

Well I think its almost Tuesday in Hungary....

[Joe S]

Well my guess is no news is bad news.

[steve simmons]

There is no new news which may be good or bad, I just don't know.

steve simmons

[Wayne]

http://www.portfolio.hu/en/cikkek.tdp?cCheck=1&k=2&i=10833

This article has good news and bad news, the problem is telling which is which and which if any is true. The article says February 22 is the Forte closing date, not January. True or false? If true, there is still time. It also says the new investors (including Bergger) would start producing digital printing paper, which might forestall the death of wet materials but seems to me would only help kill it in the end.

This article, while gloomier, also gives a February shutdown date.

http://www.portfolio.hu/en/cikkek.tdp?cCheck=1&k=2&i=10745



Wayne

[Michael Alpert]

The articles suggest that serious negotiations are in process. I hope Bergger and its partner are able to secure the production facilities they need. The production of materials for digital prints seems like a fine idea to me. The company will serve more people, and the production for digital prints could make the production of traditional materials more viable.

[MIke Sherck]

Interesting. The latter article claims that Forte's problems are related to an oversupply due to other manufacturer's dumping their stock when they went out of business. The tone of the article sounded to me as though Forte would have been profitable once the market burned through whatever Agfa and (Kodak?) got rid of when they closed. Whether Forte comes back or not (and I hope they do,) it sounds as though there is a continuing market for B&W materials.

Mike

[paulr]

How depressing is that? The thought that your competitors going out of business can put YOU out of businesss. Talk about lose-lose.

[Colin Robertson]

I've printed on ilford paper for years. Now and again I try others, just to see. Once upon a time I bought some Agfa multicontrast FB. Holy jesus, it was just beautiful, and toned in KRST in a way which produced subtle, split colours (users know exactly what I mean). It was so good I was nearly seduced . . only for Agfa to promptly fold!! A dealer here in the UK then began off-loading cheap Agfa multicontrast. It was very tempting, but I didn't buy in. Why? First, why get to love a paper if you KNOW it's going to vanish? Secondly, why put money into a dead duck? If I want B&W paper to still be around long-term I need to put my money where it will help, and that means sticking with Ilford (or Kentmere). For the same reason I try not to buy film on ebay- there's no benefit to manufacturers in that trade. (Although I did weaken and bought 40 rolls of dirt cheap 35mm Velvia- at least I'm making a lab happy burning it up)

[Al D]

Here are some legitimate sources of information:

Here is a link with an annoucement by the company stating their intent to permanently cease operations on January 26th, 2007...

http://www.aphog.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=107&Itemid=1

Also, Mirko Boddecker of FOTOIMPEX has gone on record at APUG as recently as week stating that he is extremely skeptical of any proposal that claims it can restore production in the existing operation.

If you go to the English Language Forum here, you can view a post by Mirko that suggests Forte's ownership is intent on selling the property. End of story - or so it seems:

http://fotolaborforum.de/

The British Journal of Photography similarly reports that the factory is to be demolished to make way for housing (this is exactly what happened to Stirling in India five years ago).

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=431015

But maybe, just maybe, there is the slightest chance of hope here...

There is a serious attempt by FilmoTec and Bergger to resussitate Forte's operations. This was reported on as recently as last week at a Hungarian web-site:

http://www.portfolio.hu/en/cikkek.tdp?cCheck=1&k=2&i=10833

And now something truly odd...I surfed to the fortefoto.net site last night to find that - all of a sudden (i.e. this wasn't there the day before) - it now has a link to a page that states "Our contacts have been changed".

The three people under sales are the three people who originally undersigned the company announcement in the first link (though their names have been removed).

Somebody might try contacting these people for more information. I did late last night, but I was unable to reach them.

I have also heard that:
- The three people under sales never had the opportunity to meet with the investors
- The gentleman who might really know the story at Forte is, allegedly, named Bela Kummer and that if you send an email to any of the other three and ask that it be sent to Mr. Kummer - he may well respond.

But these are longshots.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Well Colin, Forte Polygrade V FB is a beautiful paper. I am hoping that the company gets picked up by someone. It's not a dead duck...it's just feeling poorly at the moment.

[Al D]

Unfortunately, there seems to be a growing consensus in European circles that this isn't going to happen because the current ownership doesn't want it to happen.

The current investors are in the estate re-development business. In other words, they are land speculators. Several proposals have been made by the usual suspects (Fotoimpex, Fotohuis, Bergger/FilmoTec) but they have all been quickly dismissed by the owners.

At the end of the day, it appears that the land is simply worth more than people will pay for the operation. And it would be unreasonable to expect potential investors to pay a lot for that operation because the plant is somewhat outdated and designed to produce a capacity much greater than they need. In other words, any profit is likely to be modest.

In addition, folks on APUG with a background in photographic sciences and engineering are on record stating that it is extraordinarily difficult and expensive in financial and technical terms to transport the plant and equipment to an alternate location (Foma, Kentmere, etc.) and resume production. If, by some miracle that succeeds, there is simply no way the product will be identical.

I have sent an email to Bergger's US Sales address today asking if their products will remain available in light of the cessation of operations at Forte Photo. I will post the response when I receive it.

Forte Polygrade and Polywarmtone comprise 85% of my B&W paper use. This is a terrible blow to me.

I sincerely hope that Ilford/Harmon has an opportunity to re-purchase their plant soon (it is presently leased). Right now, the UK is seeing an unprecedented increase in real estate appreciation and I am fearful that they are vulnerable to this sort of land pillaging when their lease is up...

[David Crossley]

<I sincerely hope that Ilford/Harmon has an opportunity to re-purchase their plant soon (it is presently leased). Right now, the UK is seeing an unprecedented increase in real estate appreciation and I am fearful that they are vulnerable to this sort of land pillaging when their lease is up...>

That lease that Ilford/Harmon signed is for 20 years!


David Crossley/Crossley Photography....

[Sal Santamaura]

...That lease that Ilford/Harmon signed is for 20 years!...Yes, I independently veriified that before committing to Ilford's product line for my black and white work. If, in about 17 years, Ilford hasn't succeeded in acquiring the real estate (approximately 1 1/2 of the 20 years have already passed) I'll be purchasing several freezers full of film and paper!

[David Crossley]

<Yes, I independently veriified that before committing to Ilford's product line for my black and white work. If, in about 17 years, Ilford hasn't succeeded in acquiring the real estate (approximately 1 1/2 of the 20 years have already passed) I'll be purchasing several freezers full of film and paper!>

Ditto. Anyone else interested in signing up for "Sal & Daves" 2024 freezer, paper, film and photo chemical buying group :-0


David Crossley/Crossley Photography....

[John Kasaian]

So now its a matter of real estate aquisition?

Hell, they can use my barn if things get that bad! ;)

[Wayne]

I emailed Bergger and they said they (and others) are still in discussion with the plant owners. So all hope is not lost...yet.


Wayne

[Al D]

Thanks, Wayne

Did they give any indication of having a backup plan in case Forte's operations cannot be revived?

[Wayne]

I'm not sure what you mean by backup plan. I assume that if it cant be revived its dead, unless you are thinking they might buy only the equipment (that doesnt seem like a viable option, and it hasnt been mentioned). I did inquire as to what their plans would be if it is revived though (ie would they keep Forte products going), I havent heard back yet but will post if/when I do.


Wayne

[sanking]

So now its a matter of real estate aquisition?

Hell, they can use my barn if things get that bad! ;)


Not surprising. If the owners of the property can make more money by other development it should come as no surprise that they opt to do so.

My understanding is that a similar danger exists for the Efke plant in Croata in that it is located on some very valuable real estate that might produce a lot more revenue with other development than what is produced by the coating plant.

Unfortunately the size of the equipment used in these emulsion coating facilities has has to be constructed on site (became of size and weight) and moving it to another location is not financially feasible.

Sandy King

[John Kasaian]

I don't know how these things work in europe, but in the U.S. when creditors are involved the carcass gets stripped down to the bare bones. Anything of value, actual or perceived gets sold or carted off by the buzzards (its funny how often many of the fattest buzzards also work in the former company's legal department, but thats another issue) Whatever intellectual properties exist, if they are profitable, might well be manufactured by someone else. With Chinese and Russian companies entering the traditional photography export market, I think it would be a smart move to swoop down and grab at some attractive product lines that were offered. Perhaps we'll be seeing "Fortezo-isky" from Slavich, or "Excellently Larruping Elegance" from Lucky before too long.

[Joseph O'Neil]

I don't know how these things work in europe, but in the U.S. when creditors are involved the carcass gets stripped down to the bare bones. Anything of value, actual or perceived gets sold or carted off by the buzzards (its funny how often many of the fattest buzzards also work in the former company's legal department, but thats another issue) Whatever intellectual properties exist, if they are profitable, might well be manufactured by someone else.

-snip-

Same here in Canada. The thought almost never seems to be "can we make a living off this in the long run" but rather, "how much cash can I get out of this situation today before I move onto my next target tommorow." :(

It is simply amazing how many businesses that could be viable are taken apart and destroyed for their assets and short term gain. Not every company can make profits like Exxon.

joe

[Al D]

I'm not sure what you mean by backup plan. I assume that if it cant be revived its dead, unless you are thinking they might buy only the equipment (that doesnt seem like a viable option, and it hasnt been mentioned). I did inquire as to what their plans would be if it is revived though (ie would they keep Forte products going), I havent heard back yet but will post if/when I do.


Wayne

Hi Wayne,

I was thinking more in terms of taking recipes to another manufacturer for production. If you believe the Bergger "lore" this is what that company did in 1995 when they contracted Forte for the production of their film and paper.

[Al D]

I don't know how these things work in europe, but in the U.S. when creditors are involved the carcass gets stripped down to the bare bones. Anything of value, actual or perceived gets sold or carted off by the buzzards (its funny how often many of the fattest buzzards also work in the former company's legal department, but thats another issue) Whatever intellectual properties exist, if they are profitable, might well be manufactured by someone else. With Chinese and Russian companies entering the traditional photography export market, I think it would be a smart move to swoop down and grab at some attractive product lines that were offered. Perhaps we'll be seeing "Fortezo-isky" from Slavich, or "Excellently Larruping Elegance" from Lucky before too long.

There are some folks on APUG with a very extensive background in photographic sciences and engineering who are on record stating it's very hard to take company X's recipes and produce them on company Y's production infrastructure.

I suspect Lucky and Slavich have all they can handle just selling the products that they have in their existing catalogs.

[Al D]

Not surprising. If the owners of the property can make more money by other development it should come as no surprise that they opt to do so.

My understanding is that a similar danger exists for the Efke plant in Croata in that it is located on some very valuable real estate that might produce a lot more revenue with other development than what is produced by the coating plant.

Unfortunately the size of the equipment used in these emulsion coating facilities has has to be constructed on site (became of size and weight) and moving it to another location is not financially feasible.

Sandy King

I have heard that Efke is in a similar situation. They are a very small company with only about 25 full-time employees.

Perhaps this means that it would be easier for a group of distributors (e.g. Fotoimpex, Fotohuis, etc.) to rescue the operations if the owners felt compelled to sell. I hope it does not come to that.