Film for Pyro Development for Alt Process

[alec4444]

Hey guys,

I've been learning on (playing with) my large format camera with Efke PL100 film. I chose this film because it was my film of choice in medium format....I love the look of Efke film for standard silver gelatin prints. I was not disappointed with it in 11x14 sheets.

But the reason why I got the ULF camera was for alt processes. From what I have read, most of them (platinum, cyanotype, albumen, etc) benefit from a negative that has a bit higher density than is typical. Going on more from what I read: the way to get that kind of density is with Pyro developers.

Further research has uncovered that Efke films typically do not perform well with Pyro developers. Bummer.

So, my questions to this group are:

What films respond best to Pyro Developers? (Let's use PMK as a start)
With the film you suggest, what ratio or development times should I use to try to achieve a negative with adequate density?


I know that question 2 depends a lot on the exposure, the water temp, the acidity of the water, the phase of the moon, etc but I need a jumping off point. Any tips you can give would be helpful.

One idea I had was to take the first neg (of whatever type of film I try) to someplace like MV Labs and tell them I want a neg developed in pyro with a density of 1.8 (or whatever it is I need). At least then I might have a visual clue as to what my negatives should look like... What do you think?

Thanks!
--A

[tim atherton]

okay... I don't use it for alt processes, but my favourite developer for Efke PL100 in 4x5 and 8x10 is Pyrocat

what's the info you have for Efke films typically do not perform well with Pyro developers ?

[alec4444]

Found this thread (http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005gTZ&tag=). I have found a few threads stating it's ok, but it seemed inconsistent compared to some of the more "mainstream" films... If you think it's something I should try, heck, I'll give it a go. It would kinda simplify my life a bit to have one film and two developer options.....

--A

[Aaron van de Sande]

They are perfectly good films. Efke 25 is still my film of choice. It's kind of weired reading stuff you posted 4 years ago.
Give whatever you want to try a shot and you can work out any problems on the forums.

[David A. Goldfarb]

For alt processes, I don't recommend PMK. PMK generates a lot of background stain, which might enhance the grain masking effect for negs that are to be enlarged, but it doesn't help build contrast for alt processes.

I print albumen, and I use good ol' ABC pyro. I like the way it renders highlights, and it's easy to control, and it has a nice sharp look. The penalty is grain, but that's not a problem with contact prints or even small enlargements from negs developed to a density appropriate for enlargements.

For speed I use RAF pyro-metol, a formula designed by the Royal Air Force for reconnaisance photos. I've posted the formula in the formulas section on APUG, and you can find it in Haist and a few other places. The look is compatible with ABC.

Efke/Adox PL100 is an excellent film to use for this purpose. I also use Forte/J&C Classic 400 (with the recent Forte announcement, who knows for how much longer), and Tri-X.

[Mike Castles]

A...I use Efke PL100 with 4x5,5x7 and 8x10 rated at 50, develope in Pyrocat 2+2+100 for 121/2 min at 72 F. Should state, that I use Beseler Print drums, and a Unicolor roller (which does reverse) and I have been quite happy with the way these print. Any problems I have had tend to be the person processing and not the process. Most of what I print is Plt/Pld, look here (http://www.texaschurchproj.com/gallery2/main.php) to get an idea of contrast range. A couple of the guys use Pyrocat-HD also, Matt does DBI.

[alec4444]

Thanks lads. I'll try both ABC Pyro & Pyrocat. GREAT to hear it'll work with Efke.

David, as a sidenote, I'd love to see one of your albumen prints if you wouldn't mind dragging one to our Central Park event. In reading Christopher James' Alt Process book, albumen was the process that really got me excited and first made me interested in LF. Look forward to talking to you about it.

Cheers!
--A

[David A. Goldfarb]

I've got a small album of 4x5" albumens that I can bring. See you there.

[alec4444]

For alt processes, I don't recommend PMK. PMK generates a lot of background stain, which might enhance the grain masking effect for negs that are to be enlarged, but it doesn't help build contrast for alt processes.

Hey David (& Co.),

I just got some PMK for Xmas. After re-reading this thread, I noticed this comment. Should I return it and order the WD2D+ instead? I didn't see ABC for sale at Freestyle. I wanted to try a Pyro formula explicitly for alt. process, and per your comment above, this would not be my solution...

Thanks!
--A

[David A. Goldfarb]

PMK is a good developer for smaller format films. I like it for 6x6 and 35mm and occasionally a bit larger.

I haven't used WD2D+. You could mix your own ABC from bulk chemicals. If you're using these kinds of developers anyway, it makes sense to keep the ingredients on hand, experiment with a few different formulas until you settle on the one you like, and then mix it as you need it. Since the sulfite solution can go bad, for instance, with ABC, I generally mix it more frequently in a smaller bottle than the A and C solutions.

[Tim Curry]

For a good off-the-shelf developer you can't go wrong with pyrocat. Photograpers Formulary sells it and it really is wonderful stuff. Get their version mixed with glycol, as shelf life is much better than the water mixed stuff. ABC pyro is a great developer, but it is pretty picky with the mixture and use. Pyrocat does what you need, little or no general stain, great contrast potential and ease of use. It is versatile, cheap, easy and very forgiving, unlike ABC or PMK.

If you need lots of contrast for alternative process, take a look at Efke 25, it has more than you will need. Efke 100 will do most of it, unless you need huge amounts of contrast potential in a very flat scene. tim

[steve simmons]

PMK works fine for alt processes. Many people use it very successfully.

steve simmons

[D. Bryant]

PMK works fine for alt processes. Many people use it very successfully.

steve simmons
As many others have pointed out, PMK produces too much B+F density for alternative process printing. PMK is a good developer for film targeted for printing gelatin silver but not for UV printing processes.

Don Bryant

[steve simmons]

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve simmons
PMK works fine for alt processes. Many people use it very successfully.

steve simmons

As many others have pointed out, PMK produces too much B+F density for alternative process printing. PMK is a good developer for film targeted for printing gelatin silver but not for UV printing processes.

Don Bryant


As I said, I know many successful alt process printers who like and use PMK.

steve simmons

[Andrew O'Neill]

Efke 25 performs very well in pyrocat-hd for kallitype printing. I also like HP5 and FP4 also both in pyrocat. I'll be trying the newest version of TMY whenever I can get my hands on some...before my esteemed colleague does ;) .

[D. Bryant]

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve simmons
PMK works fine for alt processes. Many people use it very successfully.

steve simmons

As many others have pointed out, PMK produces too much B+F density for alternative process printing. PMK is a good developer for film targeted for printing gelatin silver but not for UV printing processes.

Don Bryant


As I said, I know many successful alt process printers who like and use PMK.

steve simmons
Okay, like who?

Don Bryant

[steve simmons]

No thanks. I once responded to such a request and gave names only to have the people vilified. I have lots of contacts from 20 years of publishing View Camera. Not everyone wants there name listed on this forum or wants to be treated like some seem inclined to treat those that they disagree with.

I am not saying PMK is the only staining developer to use, etc., etc., etc. I am simply saying that many alt process people use it. For example, HP5+ and PMK is not a good choice because of the high base fog, but other films such as Tri-X and FP4+ have much less base fog and work better.

Done.

steve simmons

[Don Hutton]

No thanks. I once responded to such a request and gave names only to have the people vilified. I have lots of contacts from 20 years of publishing View Camera. Not everyone wants there name listed on this forum or wants to be treated like some seem inclined to treat those that they disagree with.

I am not saying PMK is the only staining developer to use, etc., etc., etc. I am simply saying that many alt process people use it. For example, HP5+ and PMK is not a good choice because of the high base fog, but other films such as Tri-X and FP4+ have much less base fog and work better.

Done.

steve simmonsAs per usual, you duck when your incorrect information is challenged...

[steve simmons]

Dear Don and Don,

All I have said is that there are people doing alt process using PMK. I have not said it is the only staining developer to use or that it is the best one. I even gave an example of when it doesn't work well such as with HP5+.

Nothing personal with me, I just want to pass on accurate info so that people know what can be possible. No absolutes either.

steve simmons

[David Karp]

I have a friend who makes beautiful Alt Process prints from negatives that he develops in D-76. Should he use a staining developer instead? He does not think so.

I have been told that the 2 bath developer that I use will not result in an image on film, much less a printable negative (by a chemist no less!). Yet, I do get negatives that I print from this formula and am very happy with it.

Some people love PMK. Other people did not like it and were driven to develop their own formula (Barry Thornton and dixactol for example). So what?

Why does it bother some of us if others don't do what they do? Isn't there is more than one way? Why the attacks?

[D. Bryant]

Why the attacks?

What attacks?

Don Bryant

[rls]

For what it's worth, I use PMK Pyro and FP4 and contact print on pt/pd, cyanotypes and sometimes gum bichromate. Works like a champ. Been using it for 4x5, 8x10 and 7x17 (when I still had one).

I learned to use PMK from another photog in town who also makes wonderful alt-process prints from his FP4 films souped in PMK.

To the original poster, give it a try if you're curious. It's easy to use, in my experience.

Cheers! -Rob

[Andrew O'Neill]

Some photographers do use PMK to process their negatives for alt processes. I recall reading an article a few years back in PT mag where a photographer praised the benefits of of using PMK as a developer which allowed him to print the same negative in either platinum (I think it was platinum) or gelatin silver.

[Dave Aharonian]

I'm just starting to do Pt/Pd printing and PMK with FP4 and 400Tmax is absolutely beautiful. Its my film/developer combination. I no longer soak the negs in the used developer following the fix step as this does increase the overall stain, but I don't find it to be a big difference, and my older negs which received the afterbath still print very nicely. I find that Andrew is correct too - my PMK negs print very well using either PT/Pd or silver.

[Michael Kadillak]

Way back when at the first Large format Conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico Gordon Hutchings stated in public during at least two public forum/discussions I attended that PMK was designed for and is optimal for enlarging and may not be optimal for contact printing. That is not to say that PMK is not an exceptional developer that could be used for alt processes. It is simply a statement from very skilled and seasoned photographers that suggests that if you are a photographer that contact prints there are other pyro developers that you might want to evaluate on your own. These alternative pyro developers are ABC, W2D2 and Pyrocat.

There are no rights or wrongs when it comes to a subject as subjective as this one.

At the end of the day it is simply about the finished product (the fine print) and the developer, while relatively important, is only one of several variables used along this journey of personal expression. The individual photographer needs to assess the capacity of his or her process and materials to get to where they feel they want to be.

Everyone gets all heated up about their chosen developer and defends it like someone was talking trash about your Mother. Who the hell cares as it is the diversity that we have access to that makes us who we are.

Cheers!

[Jim Noel]

The original question seemed to be concerned with getting adequate contrast with Efke 100. It took me a while experimenting with various developers and dilutions to get satisfactory results for salt and albumen prints. These included PMK, ABC, W2D2 and Pyrocat HD.

I have settled on Pyrocat HD, 4:3:1:100 ( the 3rd component is 0.1% ascorbic acid) Efke at EI 100, 72 degrees F, 14 minutes.

For alt processes requiring less contrast like Pt/Pd I use 12 minutes.

Is this the best solution? It is for me, but may not be for you.

[alec4444]

The original question seemed to be concerned with getting adequate contrast with Efke 100. It took me a while experimenting with various developers and dilutions to get satisfactory results for salt and albumen prints. These included PMK, ABC, W2D2 and Pyrocat HD.

I have settled on Pyrocat HD, 4:3:1:100 ( the 3rd component is 0.1% ascorbic acid) Efke at EI 100, 72 degrees F, 14 minutes.

For alt processes requiring less contrast like Pt/Pd I use 12 minutes.

Is this the best solution? It is for me, but may not be for you.

Thanks, Jim, that is in fact the problem I'm trying to solve. Out of curiosity, how did the other developers work for this film? I know David said he had decent results with ABC... W2D2 looks promising - the "blurb" on Freestyle says it hardens the emulsion a bit, which would be a definite asset for Efke 100.

Thanks!
--A

[David A. Goldfarb]

All staining pyro developers harden the emulsion by tanning the gelatin to some extent.

[John Bowen]

I personally use Pyrocat HD and love it with TMY and Azo contact prints. At the inaugural Fine Focus Fall Foliage Workshop (try saying that 3 times fast) in 2006, one of the participants brought 8x10 enlargements of negatives developed in PMK. Needless to say, her work and the quality of her prints just blew us all away. There was no evidence of grain in the final prints at all. I normally use HC-10 for my 35mm Tri-X negatives, but I wouldn't hesitate for a second to try and get my hands around PMK for 35mm film.