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iskim
10-Jan-2007, 14:44
Hi I'm a guy planning to go into LF. After shooting 35mm for few years and shooting DSLR for a couple. I just got sick of the price of my digital equipment falling at a dramatic rate and realized I never enjoyed shooting anything dynamic. I've almost decided on accessories and scanners etc. and now it's the time to decide which camera I would use.

I mostly shoot lansdscapes and architecture (or cityscapes), mostly exterior and sometimes, interior. I'm 20 years old and I don't have a car so I don't get to travel very often for nature photography unless I really mean it. Fortunately I live in the downtown area of the city so I have somewhat easy access for shooting nice views of city (my main interest).

Since I'll be selling off most of digital equipments, I started looking at 4x5 cameras from the middle price range and the cameras that got my interest are:

1. Ebony SV45TE - First of all, its beatiful looks got my attention, and I "hope" it will be enough to suit my needs. Quite a pricey camera for my age, and is also at the limit of what I can afford.

2. Ebony 45S - Says it's not foldable but as some advantages on using wide angles and stuff over SV45TE... so shall I dominate this model for my use? For 35mm, I mostly shot from superwide to standard, and I prefer to use wide angle lenses in 4x5 too.

3. light monorail cameras - I haven't done enough research on this part but I think I'll be able to handle it if it's under 10lbs. I just found Horseman LE on eBay and this also looks like a reasonable choice. (is it?)

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Horseman-LE-4x5-Large-format-camera-with-lens_W0QQitemZ120073364915QQihZ002QQcategoryZ107928QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

All comments are welcome... Thanks for viewing!

Ken Lee
10-Jan-2007, 14:53
Determine the extremes of lens length that you will need. This will tell you how much bellows draw you need. Don't forget close-ups. For example, a 150mm lens needs 300mm bellows draw to reach 1:1. On 4x5, a 450mm lens isn't really long (It's roughly equivalent to a 150mm lens in 35mm terms). If you shoot mostly wide, see if you need a bag bellows to accomodate your typical lengths. If so, does the camera offer interchangeable bellows ?

Determine how heavy or light a camera you can tolerate - when weighed with the rest of your equipment.

Determine how big or small you need: Must it fold into a backpack, etc. ?

Determine how fast you need to set up/knock down the camera.

Determine how much movement you need, front and rear.

Determine if you need protection against extremes of weather: high humidity, arctic temperatures. This will tell you about wood/metal/composite.

If you have large hands/short arms etc., determine if the camera's controls are easy to operate, especially from under the dark cloth, when wearing gloves, etc.

If you plan to expand on the camera later, consider if the camera is of a "modular" design. Determine if you care.

There are probably a few other considerations, but that should get you started.

Ron Marshall
10-Jan-2007, 14:58
I have a 3 pound Toho (reviewed in the link below). For me it is the perfect travel or backpack camera; not only is it light but it breaks down into two easily packed units.

It can be used with all of my lenses from 75 to 450mm. It is a monorail so it has full movements.

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm

iskim
10-Jan-2007, 15:04
I'm thinking of 58SA XL my widest lens and anything under 10lbs I can tolerate since I'll be carrying lighter lenses compared to what I was using in 35mm and will change my tripod to a CF one.
It'll be nice if it fits in a backback but it's not a must. I usally carry big shoulder bags or a rucksack. About the movements, I'm not really sure. This would be my first purchase and I have nowhere to try it before I purchase, so this would be my main concern. I don't think protection against extremes of weather will be necessary.
I apologize for the lack of details in my post.. would this comment help?

Frank Petronio
10-Jan-2007, 15:07
Even the cheapest Ebony is hardly in the middle price range. They are fine cameras but many expert professionals use far less expensive equipment and get results at least as good as anyone using an Ebony. So you might want to back up, take a deep breath and do a little more homework -- and you can save lots of $$$ and headache.

Just a little fatherly advice: get a $700 Toyo A (or whatever) and a 150mm Rodenstock Sironar-N (or whatever) -- or better yet, purchase a $1000 outfit from somebody, complete with film holders and stuff -- and you'll have a set-up capable of doing absolutely state-of-the-art images. After you understand how to use this gear, then you'll be better equipped to spend more money on exactly what suits you best.

For that matter you can get a Crown Graphic outfit for $300 and learn with that.

You wouldn't learn how to drive a stick shift with a $50,000 sports coupe would you? Start with a Chevy.

photographs42
10-Jan-2007, 15:29
You’re really at a disadvantage by not being able to handle different models and types of cameras before purchase.

Given that you won’t have a car, I would recommend something that will fit in a backpack. You are also going to need film holders, light meter, an additional lens or two and a few other accessories. Except for the tripod, everything should fit in a backpack if you are going any distance with it on foot. For this and other reasons, I would rule out the monorails. I know people use them but I think you will be much happier with a more compact and lighter folding field camera similar to the wooden Wista’s and there are many to choose from.

I would also suggest that you not try to buy the perfect camera the first time out. With no experience in LF you chances are slim to none of picking the perfect one. So go for a used one that doesn’t stress your budget and when you have the experience to know what features to look for you can make a better choice on your next one. Those of us on this forum can advise you till doomsday but we are all saddled by our own ways and methods and can only give you general advice that has any meaning.
Jerome

PS: Remember this. When the shutter opens, there is nothing between the subject and the film except the glass, and any decent LF lens will perform to most people’s expectations.

Aaron van de Sande
10-Jan-2007, 15:31
I would recommend the monorail for what you want to do. I think it is pretty rare that people stick with the first LF camera they buy, so I would just go with whatever looks reasonable. Even if you do get another camera most people stick with a monorail for architecture.

Most of the monorails offer pretty much the same things except for the very cheapest (and basic) cambos, I am sure that a horseman will be great.

Anupam
10-Jan-2007, 15:50
Just got a shen-hao after going thru a few models and I am liking it. I wouldn't start of with an Ebony - maybe after you know exactly what you want.

-A

Ash
10-Jan-2007, 16:02
I'm an absolute newbie to Large Format as well, but I thought maybe my first experiences may help a little.

First of all I used a 10x8 studio camera for about a day. It's my mother's, it's heavy, and it's difficult to use. What I learned - I'm not likely to take it out of the house....ever. In this respect anything that will be taken from a studio definitely does need to be compact and easy to use or quick to unpack/pack.

I got an excellent deal on a near-complete half-plate ground camera (camera was complete with a few plate holders, but without lens. Of course half plate is difficult to come by, so I'd recommend not going by my route unless you want some DIY or added cost on buying a 4x5 back to fit). What I learnt - movements are great to have 'in case'. I played around with the amount of tilt/shift/rise all from an archaic field camera that has been abandoned for years, and 'limited' is far from accurate.

Third, my Cambo, bought from Jim Galli on here. Monorail, but not the lightest. He sold it to me with some film holders and dark cloth. I'm not sure I'd hike with it, but it's very usable, and I wouldn't worry about taking it out to use in the field if I had a strong enough tripod, and direct access to the site .

So that's where hands-on experience counts. You need to feel the cameras and see what you prefer, and whether you'll need to spend a few hundred on a tripod that's strong enough to support the camera or not!
I'm thinking you'll want movements on the camera for your type of shooting, so you COULD go down the field camera route, making it a light and compact choice (though kinda vintage in appearance) once fitted with a standard 4x5/5x7 back... or as previously suggested, wait for someone to sell a kit with EVERYTHING included.

It's down to patience as well, and if you like to get your hands dirty and modify things then I'd recommend the cheaper but more drawn out route of getting an older field camera cheap and modifying for your purpose. Failing that pay the extra cost for some of the really nice modern folding cameras that are compact, but have all the movements.

Unless you find something really light, I'd steer clear of some of the bulkier monorails. I'm sure others are going to disagree with me, and I'm hardly the most educated here, but from my newbie standpoint with experience of only 3 cameras, I'd choose a field camera with an array of movements over a monorail if I need to move the camera around often.

So go for the cheapest option you can - field camera with loads of movements, or light monorail :)

steve simmons
10-Jan-2007, 16:18
Before buying a camera I suggest some reading

Getting Started in Large Format

in the FreeArticles in the View Camera web site

www.viewcamera.com

In fact, there are several articles in that section that may be qute helpful

Also, one of these books
Using the View Camera that I wrote
User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone
Large Format nature Photography by Jack Dykinga

check your local library

steve simmons

Ben Chase
10-Jan-2007, 17:08
Start with a Chevy.

Or maybe a manufacturer with a little better quality control, like Toyota ;) It will frustrate you a tad less.

If it helps any, I have started with a Linhof TK45s (love it, by the way), as it was mostly favorably regarded for both architecture and landscape.

Sometimes it can be difficult to try one of these out before buying it, but you might be able to get most of your money back if you purchase a camera and decide to sell it shortly thereafter. I would almost always recommend buying used from a reputable dealer, or Ebay from someone with a good reputation. I have owned very few pieces of equipment that I've actually lost money on when deciding to replace it.

Good luck - when you see those chromes or negs on the light table, it will confirm your decision to move to this format!

Capocheny
10-Jan-2007, 17:28
Before buying a camera I suggest some reading

Getting Started in Large Format

in the FreeArticles in the View Camera web site

www.viewcamera.com

In fact, there are several articles in that section that may be qute helpful

Also, one of these books
Using the View Camera that I wrote
User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone
Large Format nature Photography by Jack Dykinga

check your local library

steve simmons

Iskim,

This would be the wisest recommendation... you need to do a bit of reading and educate yourself before you go after a camera. Do some research on the various cameras types available... and their pricing! Ebay is a good resource for this info.

Secondly, try contacting somebody like Jim at Midwest Photo (http://www.mpex.com) and speak with him. He usually has a good variety of used cameras in stock and, if you buy one from him and it doesn't work out, he'll work with you to ensure that you do get the proper camera... and accessories.

An alternative is Jeff at Badger Graphics (http://www.badgergraphics.com)

Both of these guys are as honest and straight-forward as the day is long... and they're very knowledgeable people. They won't lead you down the garden path. :)

Frank is right when he speaks about the Ebony... they're great cameras but you certainly don't need to spend that kind of dollar for a starter camera. There are a LOT of decent cameras out there for far, far less.

Lastly, as already intimated, the first camera you buy may not be the last one you own. And, judging from personal experience, and the experiences of many of the forum members here... it most likely won't be! :>8

Take your time... and do yourself a favor by doing the proper research!

Just my 2 cents worth of advice. :)

Good luck

Cheers

naturephoto1
10-Jan-2007, 17:35
That should be Jeff at Badger Graphic:

http://www.badgergraphic.com/

Rich

iskim
10-Jan-2007, 17:45
Thank you everyone for your comments. From the start I actually knew this 20yr-old-buying-an-Ebony wouldn't get much support. Just because I worry too much on how I look, I should say my style of changing equipment is somewhat reversed compared to many others.
My first camera was a 35mm manual focused Nikon FM2, it's a nice camera but I quickly lost my passion for going out to shoot pictures since I wanted to shoot slides with more accurate exposures, a better flash system and much more. Then I bought an used F4s and got the best out of it (at least I think so) and went back to the world of 35mm cameras, knowing its limits I had much better fun compared to my first use.
Another story: I started medium format with an old cheap TLR, and for the first time it was unconvinent with too much restrictions (fixed f-length, etc.) so I quickly lost interest. Half a year later I bought Rollei 6008 with bunch of lenses, I got in love with it and then I bought an TLR again knowing its uses and limits, and was able to use it happily. Similar goes for other things like compact digital cameras & DSLRs.

Maintaining my passion is important for me since I don't make money for doing this. A problem for many in my generation is that we lack consistency, try to avoid a big challenge, and gets bored easily - and I guess I'm one of them. I get bored and lazy if I have to worry about too much things and having a nice first camera in its field (mostly priced above average) makes me stop worrying about my equipment until my tatste becomes clear and obvious and lets me focues on studying and experimenting how to make good images.

I knew that large format cameras all work in a same way, and it's the quality of lenses with correct exposure and focus that matters but there are some reasons why I considered Ebony as my first camera. One being above, there's the other two:

1. I love using a machine that is well-built, especially cameras. I am also happy to use something with tradition for a sentimental value, and the use of ebony wood in Ebony cameras really got my attention.
2. Investing big money helps - using expensive equipment prevents me from being lazy in weekends. I go out shooting rather than taking a nap because I dont' want my multithousand dollar equipments sitting in my closet.

I wasn't looking for a perfect camera (but surely a nice one) since I'm more like "use this and that" type, but after checking out everyone's opinions, I think I should think further and do some more research.

Thank you again everyone for your comments. Since I'm planning to get more useful information from this forum as I continue my interest in LF, I just didn't want anyone imagining me as a spoiled kid or a pro-wannabe...

Cheers ;)

Gordon Moat
10-Jan-2007, 19:12
I don't see anything wrong with getting an Ebony. Worst result, if you don't like it, is you sell it for a very slight loss; probably holds better value than any of the smaller format cameras you already used. I understand the desire to use good gear, and that can have an affect on how often you use it.

With that in mind, and that you want to be on foot for capturing images, you might think more about getting whatever you buy to a location you want to shoot. One thing about urban shooting is that you never know who will come to check out what you are doing. While hopefully there is never an occurance that would make your camera fall, consider carefully that nearly any 4x5 that falls with the tripod might end up very damaged; that applies to a wood or metal camera. While a lower cost camera might not be as heart wrenching an event, it would be less wallet impacting . . . just something to consider.

If you can find a backpack you are comfortable using, then go with what will fit into it. You can search through some recent threads here and find a few urban shooters who use smaller packs. A non-folding camera might be a faster set-up, but it might take up more room in the backpack. Another thing is that many of the wide lenses take up more room, weigh more, and are tougher to see on the ground glass. Next comes film holders, though a Kodak Readyload and Fuji Quickload combination can keep the weight down and allow many shots to be taken. Some dedicated photo backpacks probably will handle all this, and allow a nice two or three lens kit.

You might want to start with a 135mm, 150mm, or 180mm. These are fairly easy to see on the ground glass, and will make getting use to shooting 4x5 fairly easy compared to longer and heavier, or shorter and heavier (and tougher to compose with) wide view lenses. Rather than buy all at the beginning of your 4x5 adventure, start with one lens to figure out what direction you want to go with composition and shot selection. You might be surprised that your ideas about which lenses changes once you start actually shooting; it is not as simple as matching 35mm lenses, nor medium format choices.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

Ron Marshall
10-Jan-2007, 19:16
Iskim, you may have seen the descriptions of various LF cameras on the front page of this site, if not it may answer some of your questions.

Harry's Pro shop in Toronto may have some view cameras that you can try.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/roundup4x5.html

http://www.harrysproshop.com/Used_Large_Format/used_large_format.html

Ernest Purdum
10-Jan-2007, 19:21
I think that starting out with a camera you don't like much can be an advantage. Now you know just what it is that you don't like and can avoid those specific factors in your next purchase.

andy bessette
10-Jan-2007, 21:52
Yo Iskim,

as a beginner in large format photography, who has just recently equipped himself, I would like to share only a couple of thoughts:

NO ONE can choose a camera for you. After you have done the proper amount of research, a camera will make a connection with you.

Years ago, the recently deceased film maker Robert Altman had this advice to give: "NEVER take advice from anyone".

best, andy

THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE

John Kasaian
10-Jan-2007, 23:32
Don't stress over it---there just isn't that much difference between the designs that have survived except maybe portability. Whatever you get (as long as the bellows don't leak and everything locks down nicely) just start making photographs. What you're doing is more critical to your photography than what you're doing it with.

Miguel Curbelo
11-Jan-2007, 00:17
I mostly shoot lansdscapes and architecture (or cityscapes), mostly exterior and sometimes, interior. I'm 20 years old and I don't have a car so I don't get to travel very often for nature photography unless I really mean it.
I started off with similar requirements, and my initial outfit -all of it second hand- turned out to be exactly what I was looking for: Ebony SW45 + Nikon 90mm f8 + Quickload holder. The outfit is small, light and compact, copes well with exterior architecture and landscapes, doesn't require a particularly heavy tripod and it is in addition a lovely camera to behold and work with (please excuse the frivolity). You can also use wider lenses on it without problems (My widest is the 47mm XL).

walter23
11-Jan-2007, 00:56
3. light monorail cameras - I haven't done enough research on this part but I think I'll be able to handle it if it's under 10lbs. I just found Horseman LE on eBay and this also looks like a reasonable choice. (is it?)

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Horseman-LE-4x5-Large-format-camera-with-lens_W0QQitemZ120073364915QQihZ002QQcategoryZ107928QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

All comments are welcome... Thanks for viewing!

Don't forget the Shen Hao. It's like 1/4 the cost of an ebony and almost as good (ebony has longer bellows extension, finer movements, etc). Way more movements than most field cameras have, both front & back. In most cases my lenses run out of coverage before I run out of movement, and I have lenses with reasonable coverage (Rodenstock Grandagon-N 90/6.8 and Apo-Sironar N 210/5.6). If you get lenses with much more coverage they're going to cost you over $1000 a piece (maybe $2000), and will be extremely huge and heavy and not very good for use on a field camera.

http://ashphotography.ca/gunther/uploads/pages/unseen/sandy1IMG_0373.jpg
http://ashphotography.ca/gunther/uploads/pages/unseen/sandy3IMG_0374.jpg
http://ashphotography.ca/gunther/uploads/pages/unseen/sandy4IMG_0372.jpg

It's the camera I started out with and I don't have a single regret. It's a very capable beast and quite well made. I had to fix one problem with the back not locking down properly when swung in one of the two directions, which I guess is very common. The solution is a $0.25 washer that you can buy at a hardware store and install in the locking mechanism - the one it's built with might not be thick enough to allow enough friction to lock tightly. If you decide on the shen and have this problem PM me and I'll tell you how to fix it, and if you get it from badger graphic I think they can fix it for you before shipping - just ask them about it.

walter23
11-Jan-2007, 01:07
I get bored and lazy if I have to worry about too much things

Haha, then maybe large format photography won't be your cup of tea. Think spending half an hour cleaning and loading your seven film holders so you can go take 14 photographs at half an hour per photograph ;) It requires a lot of dedication, it's a hell of a lot easier to shoot rollfilm on a medium format SLR system or a digital SLR, no matter what LF camera you end up buying.


I knew that large format cameras all work in a same way, and it's the quality of lenses with correct exposure and focus that matters but there are some reasons why I considered Ebony as my first camera. One being above, there's the other two:

1. I love using a machine that is well-built, especially cameras. I am also happy to use something with tradition for a sentimental value, and the use of ebony wood in Ebony cameras really got my attention.

My shen hao uses black walnut or teak (I'm not totally sure which). Those are fine woods with great sentimental value. And the style of camera is traditional, whether it's a Kodak or a Deardorff or an Ebony or a Shen Hao. My shen hao was also very well built, like a fine piece of furniture. This isn't really much of a reason to spend 4 times the money.


2. Investing big money helps - using expensive equipment prevents me from being lazy in weekends. I go out shooting rather than taking a nap because I dont' want my multithousand dollar equipments sitting in my closet.

My full ensemble of LF gear including a shen hao, lenses, filters, holders, backpack, etc, cost me well over $2000, not including film (which is fairly expensive). This is less than I've spent on my canon DSLR system and pricey L lenses, I'll grant you, but it's still a significant investment. You'll probably want some B&W developing materials (if you don't have them already), and a scanner, which adds to the cost. You have lots to spend your money on, don't worry.

Emmanuel BIGLER
11-Jan-2007, 07:05
3. light monorail cameras - I haven't done enough research on this part but I think I'll be able to handle it if it's under 10lbs.

There are several light weigth monorails on the market.
e.g. the TOHO 45
http://www.toho-machine.co.jp/FC-45Mini.htm

and the Arca Swiss F-line series... and others.
Sure, in the fifites and sixties there were many heavy 4x5" monorails, but there has been significant progress since !

For example the weigth of the arca swiss misura is only 2.3 kg, 5 lbs (without case & lens)
The F-classic "field" with full rear movements weights about 2.5 kg / 5.5 lbs. (no lens)
http://www.galerie-photo.com/arca-swiss-misura-us.html

There is detailed list of various Arca Swiss 6x9 and 4x5" camera weights here
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=11065&page=2

and various discussions :
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=11731
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=11674
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=12017

Frank Petronio
11-Jan-2007, 10:23
I got an email last week from a guy who clearly had never seen a large format camera, saying he wanted to do detailed portraits with an Ebony 8x10 and Fuji Velvia and get "maximum" GB+ drum scans, etc...

I sent him to MPEX and Badger. If he comes through and drops $50K on the gear I'm expecting a nice commission.

(Actually I sent him here but haven't seen him yet...)