Ink cost justification

[Robert Oliver]

Can anybody name another liquid that costs well over $300 a gallon in bulk or $2000 in individual serving size packages. Epson sells a gallon of ink in individual 220ml cartridges for around $2000 a gallon

As I'm researching ways to fix my epson 4000 woes, I've been looking at continuous ink systems and third party inks. How can anybody justify selling ink at the prices we are all paying.

I understand supply and demand, but damn. Are we a bunch of idiots or what.

What makes ink so expensive? Gas is only $3.00 a gallon. Gas is a vanishing resource and is incredibly difficult to find and refine.

I think i'll try to find some sucker to trade me my epson 4000 for a darkroom.

[Ted Harris]

Hmmmmm ..... not that I feel any better about ink costs than you do but there are lots of examples. To name a few: some perfums, some cognacs, some wines, some flavoring extracts, etc.

[Kirk Gittings]

As my chef wife reminds me, there are some aged basalmic vinegars that go for $200 for 6-8 onces!

[Dave Parker]

There are actually quite a few things that sell in this price range...not that I like it, but believe me there are!

LOL

[Robert Oliver]

at least if used correctly, perfume, alcohol and maybe even aged balsamic vinegar will get you laid.

I'm only getting the occasional decent print for my ink costs. I can almost justify the cost when my printer is working correctly but when I'm wasting tons of ink just trying to get and keep the heads cleaned then it's a little frustrating.

It's interesting that I'm using almost as much color ink only printing black and white. I think I need to start printing color again or switch to the strictly b&w ink cartridges. I'm constantly running the auto head adjustment.

anybody using the b&w ink sets? what worth looking at.

[Ralph Barker]

I've paid $18 for a tiny glass of vintage port (a yummy '55 Woodhouse) and $60 for a small glass of cognac (Louis XIII), but the per-gallon cost of inks still irks me, too. But, we also have to recognize that what we pay for inks is where the manufacturers make their profits, along with funding the additional research that makes our old printers obsolete in a year or two.

[cyrus]

aged balsamic vinegar will get you laid...Wow, now I know what I have been doing wrong all this time!

So what exactly do I do with the vinegar?

[Robert Oliver]

that would be the "if used correctly". You cook a nice dinner for a significant other and use aged balsamic vinegrette you could probably even get a wife to put out.

[Robert Oliver]

can you tell i'm having a bad printer day.... I have a huge project due for a client and I can't get my stupid printer to even spit out one print without a million white lines.

As I'm starting to analyze the costs and compare them to silver prints, I'm starting to think about going back to the enlarger. I went back into the darkroom for the first time in over a decade and actually got some really cool results on some really tough negatives. I think I saved some money too. In three hours I ended up with 3 really nice prints. Thats quicker than what I'm doing when I factor in photoshop and fighting with my damn printer.

[Greg Lockrey]

It's BIG INK! Time to sic Nancy on 'em. :eek:

[Aaron van de Sande]

One company I worked for made the pheromones for the boll weevil. One of the components sold for 40,000$ a kilogram, and that was 20 years ago.

[Greg Lockrey]

How about the cost for Saffron? :eek: Something like an acre for a pound and the stemens (the part they use) has to be seperated by hand. All that so your soup has a yellow shade to it.

[Hugh Sakols]

What would lower the price is to have a little healthy market competition. What about third party inks???? Earlier I asked if anyone has experimented with MIS inks? As a serious hobbiest I'm spending way too much on ink compared to what I get back in a sale of a print here and there. It seems to me that there would be a prosperous market for archiaval inks that could match or exceed the quality of the Epson brand.
http://www.inksupply.com/arcnew.cfm

[Frank Petronio]

LOL at least you got a 4000 instead of a 2200 ;)

If you do it right, photos and prints will get you laid. So I hear.

[Steven Barall]

If you look at your per print costs, they are still pretty low. Stricly relative to price per print, compare the ease of operation of a well calibrated digital system relative to the expense of operating a darkroom especially if you have to rent the space for the darkroom and then multiply that serveral fold if you are printing color.

The new Canon and HP high end printers infact waste much less ink that the Epson printers. Epson is going to finally have to make their printers more efficient now that they have serious competition which is good for us. Actually, the new Canon and HP printers are better printers than the Epson printers anyway as far as print quality goes.

If you want to get angry, try getting angry about the cost of inkjet paper. Why in many cases does inkjet paper cost much more than silver paper? Isn't silver more expensive that no silver???

[Bruce Watson]

I understand supply and demand, but damn. Are we a bunch of idiots or what.

What makes ink so expensive? Gas is only $3.00 a gallon. Gas is a vanishing resource and is incredibly difficult to find and refine.

What I remember from my econ classes so many years ago is that there are two basic pricing models (and plenty of hybrids in between, so don't muddy the waters bring all that up). One is price-by-cost, and the other is price-by-value.

Price-by-cost is pretty much what it says. You pay what it costs to make it and get it to your location, plus a percentage profit. Typically you find this model in commodity markets such as gasoline. The reason for this is the huge competition.

Price-by-value is what every supplier dreams of. In this model you don't really consider the cost to make it. You only consider how much the consumer values it. You price it as high as you can until you start to loose sales. This is typically found with products that have minimal competition, for instance niche markets (those new ULF lenses that cost USD 5k), or with products that are patented (say, pharmaceuticals).

Suppliers always want to price-by-value and will do a lot of work to get there. For instance, they'll patent their ink carts, then add proprietary chips to those carts. They don't really want to patent their inks because this would tell their competitors enough to let them make the same ink (that's what a patent does - you explain it to the world in exchange for 20 years of monopoly position in the marketplace).

Why would they do this? So that they can do their other favorite thing -- sell the printer cheap. They'll juggle their books to be able to show that they aren't running afoul of predatory pricing laws, but suffice it to say that they don't make money on printers. They use printers to hook you on the inks, and use the inks to make money. Which is smart business.

That said, the barrier to entry isn't all that high. MIS is making third party inks. So is Cone. There are dozens of third party ink suppliers. Most of them under price Epson by quite a bit.

Just because Epson wants you to buy their inks doesn't mean that you have to...

[John Bowen]

aged balsamic vinegar will get you laid...Wow, now I know what I have been doing wrong all this time!

So what exactly do I do with the vinegar?


A nice Stop Bath, perhaps :p

[OldBikerPete]

<snip>...
I'm only getting the occasional decent print for my ink costs. I can almost justify the cost when my printer is working correctly but when I'm wasting tons of ink just trying to get and keep the heads cleaned then it's a little frustrating.

It's interesting that I'm using almost as much color ink only printing black and white. I think I need to start printing color again or switch to the strictly b&w ink cartridges. I'm constantly running the auto head adjustment.
<snip>...


I've not yet had occasion to try it, but I've often wondered whether a short immersion in a small ultrasonic bath (available for about $75) would cure the blockages that often occur in inkjet printer heads.

[Robert Oliver]

The third party inks come in at over $300 a gallon. Epson is around $2000 a gallon if I did my math and my conversions correctly.

I'm most likely switching to Cone's system. His lighting fast response to my questions definitely scored some points with me. He also gave me some very honest answers that did not involve buying his inks but getting my printer running with current epson inks.

I like that kind of customer service.

[Greg Lockrey]

Looked at your site Robert, wonderful images!

[JoelBelmont]

I am waiting for a 3800 on order.

In regards to inks, and bypassing epson's expensive inks:
1. The 3800 uses pressurized cartridges (is my understanding)... does this take away the ability to use third party inks/refill cartridges/give epson a monopoly on what inks you can use with it?

2. MIS lists, in regards to their archival ink: "The estimated archival life will exceed the Epson inks by many times when used with archival paper. They have been tested by Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) and rated to last 49 years under display conditions." Epson lists 100-200+years with their inks. MIS is at 49... how is that exceeding epson by several times?

Thanks for any input. I am also tossing around the idea of the 4800 instead of the 3800... I will be switching matte/glossy now and then, but can't figure out if the 3800 is worth the extra 33-50&#37; in ink costs.

Regards,
~Joel Belmont
www.joelbelmont.com

[paulr]

I think there are a couple of things going on. Companies like Epson make a big chunk of their money on ink. The ink likely subsidises the manufacture of printers and other hardware.

Also, all of the companies, especially the smaller ones like Cone and MIS, put a huge portion of their resources into R&D. This money needs to be made back somehow. And the cycle doesn't stop, because at least at this stage of the game, they're constantly working on the next improvement.

[duckarrowtypes]

I just bought a photo printer for the first time in 10 years and I have to admit that I'm impressed. I bought an Epson R2400 to print scans of my B&W work and by my estimation, I've made a metric crapload of 11x17 B&W prints and I still have 25% of the ink left.

When I was doing B&W work, I had a tendency to use a LOT of black in my imagery... the night sky was always as black as I could make the paper in the darkroom because that's the way I like the sky. I thought that I'd be spending a fortune on black ink but the R2400 impressed me with its abstemious ink usage.

Also, Ralph, where on Earth did you find Louis XIII for $60 a pour? I buy myself one pour a year on my birthday and I've never found it for less than $100!

-J

[Stephen Willard]

The last 4 years I worked for HP, all profits generated were from the inkjet ink devision. If the ink devision was not profitable then HP would have vanished long ago. Inkjet ink is a gold mine for the big three companies only because there is a customer base that is willing pay those prices. If everyone went back to the darkroom then inks prices would be drastically reduced. The demand for ink is what most economist call inelastic. Before the energy crisis in the early 80s economist believed the demand for gasoline was inelastic, however this is no longer true.

The inkjet ink market is not monopolistic, but it is a an oligopoly which is not good. Prior to the flood of import cars the big three auto makers had oligopoly market in the USA. Oligopoly firms collaborate to charge the monopoly price and get monopoly profits. Thus, Epson gets $2000 a gallon for its inks. I can guaranty you they will build printers that will block third party ink usage, and than the price will go up to $3000 a gallon. At these prices, it would be better selling inkjet ink than illegal drugs.

[JoelBelmont]

I can guaranty you they will build printers that will block third party ink usage, and than the price will go up to $3000 a gallon.

I am wondering if the 3800, with new pressurized ink cartridges, is something that will keep people from using 3rd party inks?

Does anyone know if there are 3rd party inks that can be used with the 3800?

Thanks,
~Joel

[Alan Davenport]

What makes ink so expensive?

They have it. We want it. duh.

[Bert Hillebrand]

Hello Robert,
Just read your post of 9.Jan 07 regarding the high cost of ink. You mentionned a Cone's system which I can't find. Could you let me know the address? Thank you.
Bert Hillebrand

[B.S.Kumar]

www.inkjetmall.com

Cheers,
Kumar

[Jim Jones]

The cost per print in my Epson 3800 is a bit higher than in a wet darkroom if I get the traditional print right the first time. However, I'd rather spot and make other corrections on the computer just once and have the first and endless duplicates come out of the Epson as expected. That's worth the price of a lot of $2000 ink. Long ago Spotone cost maybe $200 or $300 a gallon, but just an ounce could keep a printer entertained [?] for hundreds of hours.

[anchored]

I hope the refillable cartridge systems are much better than the "old days." Tried a refillable system for an old HP1180C wide format printer... took hours and hours to clean up the mess caused by leakages of the cartridges. Needless to say from then on went back to the non-refillable Epson cartridges.

[BarryS]

I am wondering if the 3800, with new pressurized ink cartridges, is something that will keep people from using 3rd party inks?

Does anyone know if there are 3rd party inks that can be used with the 3800?

Thanks,
~Joel

AFAIK, there are currently no third party ink carts for the 3800. Ink Republic is about to release a continuous ink system (CIS) for the 3800 that will configurable as 250ml or 500ml/color. With a CIS you can use any bulk ink. If you plan a lot of high volume printing and have the time or money to generate your own paper profiles, it may be worth considering. Expect to spend some time getting the system running correctly and working out high quality profiles.

http://www.inkrepublic.com/3800.asp

Like any third party ink system, Ink Republic gets mixed reviews. I'd definitely wait until some 3800 users report on the new system.

[Bert Hillebrand]

www.inkjetmall.com

Cheers,
Kumar

Thank you, Kumar for the address. I have an Epson Stylus Pro 5500 but I can't find it in Cone's listings. Have you by any chance had this model and have used an ink refill system for it?
Regards
Bert

[jetcode]

I have a Niagra system for Septone inks and use ink bottles as the source for the cartridges

[Bert Hillebrand]

Joe, I don't know anything about Niagra og Septone and how this works, so I wouod be grateful if you could describe how you use them and advantages apart from economy. Do you have the Epson Stylus Pro 5500?
Regards
Bert

[Joseph O'Neil]

On a tangent here, I needed a colour printer, heavy duty & high quality for commercial printing purposes. Settled on the Xerox phaser line which uses wax blocks of ink. Nice thing about it is when you are running low on say cyan, you just add more cyan blocks - no need to replace all the colours.

I've seen these big Epson printers in person, and know they are a different animal altogether from my Xerox, but I am wondering out loud if for some people on this board if the Xerox might not be the way to go?
joe

[coops]

I have been using the Niagra system fom Mediastreet on my Epson 2200. Each in k cost about $18 each for a 90cc bottles, verses $10 for an Epson ink cart that I think holds 17cc's. Printing on matt paper, the prints look identicle to the Epson. But a problem has developed with Ilford luster paper, and I think the problem must be the re-fillable carts I got, instead of the con. system that I could not afford at the time.
So my dilemma now is should I spend $135 for the cont. system plus 4 ink re-fills, and still have the same problem ( because it may be a printer problem) or get an Epson 3800, which is kinda pricey for me.

[keith english]

I know it has probably been addressed here before, but thought the Epson lawsuit was going to stop the sell of continous ink systems and the refilled piezo type cartridges. What is the status of the industry?

[seawolf66]

Keith: That was the impression I got from the lawsuit by Epson >?? Oh as for price cost try Truffles:

[Michael T. Murphy]

If you look at the price of Cone's inks, Lyson Cave Paint, etc. in the 220ml carts, they are almost as much as Epsons. Like $79 versus $82 for Epson.

The savings comes through buying in bulk.

But be careful. I compared the gamut of 10+ non-OEM inks to that of the Epson 7600, 7800, and 7880 inks (K2, K3, K3 Vivid.) Very few were even as good as the K2! And most have no longevity data available.

I went to dye inks for proofing, at $27 a liter. You have to be careful there, too - a lot of crap, like G&G. So far I am happy with the OCP dyes. Still have to test for longevity though. I use K3 Vivid on my 7880 for final prints.

(I am running 2 7600's and the 7880 right now. I have 4 ink sets that I use, 7 or 8 that I am testing.)

[Bert Hillebrand]

Hello Michael,
Thanks for your detailed reply. Unfortunately I have no experience with it all! Cone has answered my enquiry that they do not have Pro 5500 carts, that I could try a CIS, and that they sell bottled inks. I have now asked them - what is a CIS, and if I could refill my used 5500 cartridges or are these impossible to refill. So far, no reply received. So could you kindly fill me in - what is "a lot of crap, like G&G", what is OCP dyes(Cone?)Have you used a 5500? Regards, Bert

[Michael T. Murphy]

Bert, I apologize for the long delay! I am on vacation in Orlando with my 9 year old son. Sea World today. :D


Hello Michael,
Cone has answered my enquiry that they do not have Pro 5500 carts, that I could try a CIS, and that they sell bottled inks.

Which other printers use the same carts as the 5500? I see that MIS has refillable carts for the 5000 - will those work? Looks like only 4 colors though. About $10 each:

Empty (no chip) Cartridges For Epson Stylus Pro 5000

http://www.inksupply.com/wideformat.cfm

Select the 5000 from the list. I don't see a listing for the 5500.



if I could refill my used 5500 cartridges or are these impossible to refill.

How large are the 5500 carts? 220 ml?

If so, those should be easy to refill. You use a 60 ml syringe with an adapter to fill them through the port where the ink usually comes out. Post more info about the carts.



So could you kindly fill me in - what is "a lot of crap, like G&G"

G&G is a brand name. They sell a lot of ink on Ebay. According to some tests, their longevity is a matter of months (versus 40+ years for Epson Durabrite.)

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/WIR_Epson3rdParty2007_09_11.pdf


OK, let's start from the beginning. You have a 5500. What do you want to do with it? Make prints for resale as fine art, where longevity is important? Make proofs so that you can judge image quality and then scrap them? Somewhee in between?

There are a lot of 3rd party ink manufacturers. Some are really bad; some are pretty good. I went to dye inks for my proofing because the gamut was better than most pigment, there wsa only 1 black for photo and matte, and they are cheap - only $27 for a liter.

Feel free to e-mail if you like. I will check in, lets see what you want to do with these things. Do you have a device to create your own ICC profiles?

[Helen Bach]

Like any third party ink system, Ink Republic gets mixed reviews. I'd definitely wait until some 3800 users report on the new system.

I've used a few CIS systems with 2200 and R2400 printers, for Septone, Cone, Epson OEM and my own ink sets, and the Ink Republic i-Ink has been the best and most reliable, though it looks a bit weird. I'm looking forward to the 3800 system so that I can convert a 3800 to a Piezography glossy hybrid I've been working on with an R2400, then maybe use my colour 3800 with 4800 inks. I wish that Bowhaus would release a version of IJC/OPM for the 3800, but development seems to have stopped on IJC/OPM. Maybe I'll switch to StudioPrint.

Best,
Helen

PS In case anyone is wondering why I don't just get 4000-series or bigger printers, I have a severe space problem and it's easier for me to fit four or five small printers here and there rather than one or two large printers.

[jetcode]

Joe, I don't know anything about Niagra og Septone and how this works, so I wouod be grateful if you could describe how you use them and advantages apart from economy. Do you have the Epson Stylus Pro 5500?
Regards
Bert

Bert I have a 2200, the system comes with pre-filled color coded cartridges. The installation is fairly easy but the printer must be maintained or the heads will clog.

The main advantage is pure B/W tone from cold to warm. Prints look spectacular in my eye.

[Helen Bach]

I used to use Septone inks in a Niagara CIS with the original R9 software, then later with IJC/OPM, which gives more control and it frees you from the limitation of relying on R9 profiles. It's a very good system, as jetcode says, though not so good for glossy paper unless the prints are coated, when a D-Max of around 2.6 is possible. It has one common matte black and three lighter shades in warm and three lighter shades in cool/neutral, so there are seven inks. With the original R9 software you can select a mix of inks, and have different warm/neutral balances at different densities. Very handy, very well controlled. You could probably do the same with PiezoTone inks, which have roughly similar densities as the Septones, and the R9 software. You can do it with PiezoTones and IJC/OPM.

There was a lot of dye in the original Septone inks and they had low fade resistance, but the story is that they were reformulated after being abandoned by Cone. Because I like glossy prints I switched my Septone 2200 to an inkset based on K3 inks from a 4800, with one channel for Krystal Topkote.

Best,
Helen

[Bert Hillebrand]

Michael,Thank you for the long reply.The 5500 carts are different from the 5000 s; I can't find them listed . They hold 110ml. 6 colors in 4 carts: A.black, B.yellow, C.magenta+light magenta, D. cyan+light cyan, Perhaps these double carts create a problem. I want to make fine art prints. Epson's 5500 ink is pigmented and claims 200 years lightfastness! I'm ignorant as to ICC profiles. The 5500 came out in 2001 and cost approx 4K; it is a good printer.
Regards,
Bert

[Bert Hillebrand]

Joe,
Thank you for your reply. I just cannot trace any 5500 carts, so am stumped. If I want to use my old and empty carts, would they require some sort of cleaning first? Does the clogging you mentioned arise more rapidly than with Epson's inks?
Regards,
Bert

[Peter De Smidt]

I've used MIS refillable cartridges on various Epsons. The ink was fine. The refillable cartridges, though, were quite dodgy, and I'd regularly have issues with clogged nozzles. What was really annoying was I'd get a good print, and then boom a bad one, even though it was printed less than a minute after the good one. I decided that the lost time and money made the MIS refillable cartridges expensive compared to Epson ink.

After spending awhile using epson ink, though, I simply couldn't stand the price. So I bought a CIS for my R2400 from InkRepublic, and I use MIS K4 color inks, using the Epson driver to print through a custom profile (Print Fix Pro) with extended grays.

I have run into a few issues. Mainly, the plastic bridge the InkRepublic used held the ink tubes in a poor position on my R2400. This lead to some head strikes on Ilford Gold Silk Fiber paper, a very nice paper, btw. So I had to forcibly remove the bracket and move it. So far, so good.

On a customer service note, InkRepublic was very responsive when I told them I was having issues.

[butterfly]

Totally agree about the costs. If it all went on prints (I have an HP B9180), it wouldn't be so bad. Half of what I use goes on cleaning and calibration. It's crap. I've shut it down and given up. I can't justify it, neither can Epson/HP. The are simply thieves in my opinion.