Drafting a set of Ebay seller ethics guidelines

[cyrus]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I built one of those electronic shutter speed testers that essentially consist of a photo electric diode attached to a computer sound card.

I used it to test a a 300mm Schneider previously bought on Ebay but not yet used, and lo! it turns out to be damaged. The fast speeds were way off. Took it to repair shop and found out that the governor was malfunctioning and there was some other damage. The cost of fixing that was only $40 on top of the usual cost of a good CLA but still, goes to show you can't really judge a lens bought off of ebay just by sound and looks. I think it is too late to raise a stink with the seller, especially since I already gave him a positive feedback. I suppose he wrote "mint, not tested but speeds sound right" on his auction, and I suppose I can't judge badly him for failing to tell the difference of 1/250th and 1/100ht shutter speed by ear alone. but still, who should be responsible for hidden damage in that sort of circumstance? The seller or buyer? Ethically, it should be the seller, IMHo.

ANyway, seems to me that there are a lot of LF gear transactions on Ebay. Perhaps it would be a good idea for the collective LF-gear purchasing community on Ebay to sort of join up together and develop a list of voluntary "ethical guidelines" and ask sellers to to abide by them, backed by the force of our economic purchashing power. Sellers should then be encouraged to state clearly in their ebay auctions whether they (voluntarily) abide by these guidelines or not.

Whether the seller agrees to abide by the guidelines, declines to do so, or simply refuses to acknowledge them, the sellers will have an additional bit of info that they can take into consideration when making a bid- and that will result in strong encouragement for sellers to adopt the guidelines eventually.

So, as an Ebay buyer what rules or "ethical guidlines" would you like to See adopted by sellers?

1- If you're selling something on ebay, make sure you show clear photos of all sides, or at least of the side where the item is damaged (instead of trying to hide it!)

2- If you're selling it "as is" then at least descibe how it "is" clearly. If you fail to disclose a defect that is apparent, then you have to take it back even if you sold the item on an "as is" basis.

3- If there's hidden damage, the seller will accept returns even if he had no way to know about it, for a reasonable period of time.

4-...?

[D. Bryant]

Here are my suggestions about buying on e-bay.

1) Read the auction ad carefully. If the terms don't satisfy you then don't bid on an item.

Don Bryant

[tim atherton]

3- If there's hidden damage, the seller will accept returns even if he had no way to know about it, for a reasonable period of time.

sorry - but really, it's buyer beware if you are buying a used item from a private seller as opposed to a store. If the item is clearly and honestly described and described "as is", that's all that can be done. If the item is described as "recently CLA'd or "checked by my repair technician" that's different.

If you want the equivalent of the 28 day or 3 month "used" guarantee that stores tend to offer (usually for a somewhat higher price for the same item), then you would have to include say a $45.00 "repair insurance" on the mechanical aspects of the item.

If you want something that's mechanically guaranteed, imo you need to be prepared to pay a higher price....

And on point 2.:
2- If you're selling it "as is" then at least descibe how it "is" clearly. If you fail to disclose a defect that is apparent, then you have to take it back even if you sold the item on an "as is" basis.

if it's obvious in the photos, but not described, tough (I've heard this complaint on lists before). Some buyers are just too stupid or blind to notice then start crying foul

Some of this is common sense, but on the whole, I don't see it as a very workable idea

[tim atherton]

Here are my suggestions about buying on e-bay.

1) Read the auction ad carefully. If the terms don't satisfy you then don't bid on an item.

Don Bryant

that would be buyer ethical guidlines, but pretty much sums it up i think

[Ron Marshall]

Unless an Ebay item is signifigantly below the price at a reputable used equipment dealer that permits returns, such as KEH, I don't bother.

Before bidding I ask lots of questions.

[Ted Harris]

Ron has the only approach that makes sense. BTW as a result a watch a lot of stuff on eBay and buy very very very little.

As a seller I agree with Tim. I go to great lengths to describe everything I sell accurately down to the last little ding or scratch or blemish. Having done that I am not about to take something back unless it was agreed to in advance and factored in to the selling price. By and large if I had to go through that one very sale I would rathe rjsut trade my stuff to Jim at Midwest where I get tradein value that is often close to what I can sell it for on eBay anyway.

[tim atherton]

Ron has the only approach that makes sense. BTW as a result a watch a lot of stuff on eBay and buy very very very little.

As a seller I agree with Tim. I go to great lengths to describe everything I sell accurately down to the last little ding or scratch or blemish. Having done that I am not about to take something back unless it was agreed to in advance and factored in to the selling price. By and large if I had to go through that one very sale I would rathe rjsut trade my stuff to Jim at Midwest where I get tradein value that is often close to what I can sell it for on eBay anyway.

I should add I don't think I've ever had anyone want to return an item I've sold on ebay. But I know I've bought stuff where I realise I didn't read to description or look at the photos properly and kicked myself after I got the item... I've know of a few buyers in similar situations who've then gone into a "I've been cheated and want my money back frenzy". I've tended to either suck it up or re-sold the item accurately and clearly described - generally at a slight loss, a couple of times at a profit.

And what about the items we get that turn out to be far better than we expected or were described? Shouldn't we have ethical guidelines whereby in those circumstances the buyer has to cough up a bit more for the seller... :D

[Ernest Purdum]

This problem is inherent in selling and buying unseen. Often, I think, the seller really doesn't know very much about what he is selling. This can work for or against the buyer. In addition to asking questions, to which I may or may not get a meaningful answer, I have a green eyeshade and purple sleeve garters for wear while deciding whether or not to bid and how much.

I think I have come out ahead on the whole, but I would certainly do all my buying from one of our good dealers if I weren't willing to take some risk.

[Michael Graves]

Unless an Ebay item is signifigantly below the price at a reputable used equipment dealer that permits returns, such as KEH, I don't bother.

Before bidding I ask lots of questions.

ditto. In fact, of late, I'm getting better deals from MPX and KEH than EBay offers. In fact, I was watching a Mamiya 7 outfit identical to one I got from MPX a couple of weeks ago for $800.00. On Ebay, that one (based on the description, not in as good a shape as the one I got) sold for $1,025.00.

I kept trying to get a 10" lens for my 8x10. After watching several old style lenses bring 6-800 on Ebay, I bought a 10.75" Apo Artar in an Ilex #3 from KEH for $345.00.

Still, once in a while, something comes along that's worth taking a shot at.

[David A. Goldfarb]

As a seller, I figure the burden is on me to describe the item as best I can and respond to queries in advance, and as long as I've described everything accurately, I don't have to take it back. If the buyer decides that they just don't like something, then there was always a bidder just below them, and they can throw it back into the lake, and someone else will buy it.

As a buyer, I figure the burden is on me to calculate the risk and know the value of the item and the possible repair costs and factor them into my bid. As long as the seller has described the item accurately, I won't ask to return it, and if I don't like it, I can throw it back into the lake, usually with a better description and better pictures than when I bought it, and by virtue of the additional labor I am willing to put into the item description, I can usually turn a modest profit, occasionally suffering a modest loss, once or twice realizing a very significant profit, but never yet a significant loss.

It works for me.

[cyrus]

As a seller, I figure the burden is on me to describe the item as best I can and respond to queries in advance, and as long as I've described everything accurately, I don't have to take it back.


That's fine but the point is to create a set if ethical guidelines in which these sorts of things are explicitly acknowledged and agreed to and adopted.

[Michael Graves]

Personally, I would be willing to adopt such guidelines. Then again, that doesn't help a whole lot. I don't sell that much.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

cyrus,

"The seller or buyer? Ethically, it should be the seller, IMHo." Why?

'Let the buyer beware' has been in effect since ancient Rome. From your desciption the shutter only needed a CLA, perfectly normal for a used shutter. It sounds like your repair shop sold you a 'bucket of steam'.

As for a seller ethics guideline, you would also need a buyer ethics guideline. This will happen after horses climb trees. :eek:

Welcome to ebay or any other auction site.

[Henry Ambrose]

"I think it is too late to raise a stink with the seller, especially since I already gave him a positive feedback. I suppose he wrote "mint, not tested but speeds sound right" on his auction, and I suppose I can't judge badly him for failing to tell the difference of 1/250th and 1/100ht shutter speed by ear alone. but still, who should be responsible for hidden damage in that sort of circumstance? The seller or buyer? Ethically, it should be the seller, IMHo."

Why?

A check or control already exists in the form of the eBay feedback mechanism. I think it is important to leave appropriate feedback for every transaction. To do that, you as a seller, must be able to determine that all the conditions of the sale have been met and the seller's obligations are complete. That would include inspection and testing of the item within the agreed upon time frame. If you can't do that then its your problem and not the sellers if you find something wrong after the term. Both the seller and the buyer have to complete all their obligations. You are buying what the auction terms state, no more and no less. Not what you imagine or wish the item to be.

A seller owes you nothing after the terms and conditions have been satisfied. No more than you would owe the seller more money because he thought the item sold too cheaply. Not to say some sellers won't go further than what is required from the written agreement. But if that happens you are lucky. I would consider it a gift.

Sometimes the seller may not have any idea about what they're selling, what it does or is supposed to do beyond the most basic "its a camera" Or the seller may have bought it from someone at a camera show and its not been used for 25 years. Who knows?

eBay really is largely a crapshoot driven by greed. We and millions of others go there in search of a "great deal" or a "real steal". We are hunting a price too good to be had otherwise. Otherwise we'd just buy what we want from the local camera store or our favorite dependable supplier who we might even know by name.

I am almost sure that buying and selling here on this forum is safer than eBay. The collegial atmosphere demands it if the buyer and seller are to remain part of the community. And then there are our well known dependable suppliers who's names pop up here from time to time. How about giving them your business if you're worried about eBay dealings? By the time you save on eBay and PayPal fees you'll probably get what you want cheaper. And they'll even take it back if there's a problem. There are more secure places to buy than eBay if you can't stand the odds there.

[Dave Parker]

Now, please tell me how your going to implement this type of ethical situation with all of the thousands of sellers who sell camera gear on ebay?

I purchase a hell of a lot of stuff on ebay, I bid what I feel I can afford to loose, just like I do when I go to Vegas or Reno, I leave appropriate feedback when things vary from their description and I deal with it, when I make a bad purchase, which I don't often do, if you want ethics and complete disclosure, then only deal with people you absolutely know to be fair when they are describing something, IE: Midwest, Jim Gali, Badger, ebay is not the place to trust anyone to describe something correctly, I agree with Henry, the odds on ebay are difficult to judge and often times, what they describe as mint, may very well be mint to them, but we are a demanding group of people with far more knowledge than most who sell camera gear...I just don't see it becoming a workable situation, because I can tell you, I look for what I want, and I buy what I want, and I have a different set of rules than others, I don't think I could jump in the pool to boycott someone based on what you are describing. That is, unless it is a blatant lie when it arrives, and then I just leave the appropriate feedback, unless they are willing to work something out to both of our satisfaction.

Dave

[Aaron van de Sande]

I always buy a shutter with the assumption I am going to have to spend 50$ for a CLA. Unless the seller claims that it was recently serviced it is foolish to think otherwise. Not everyone has a shutter testing thingamabob.

[cyrus]

Now, please tell me how your going to implement this type of ethical situation with all of the thousands of sellers who sell camera gear on ebay?

Simple - I say - "look at the these guidelines, do you agree to abide by them"
If the seller says yes, or no, or ignores the request, all of that is information which is useful to me as a buyer. And if enough buyers ask enough sellers, these will become a defacto "rules" albeit on a voluntary basis.

Similar "rules" are already in effect - the old "buyer beware" is one - but no one says that HAS to be the rule forever and ever and can't change. Online auctions are a new environment which aren't comparable to the old marketplace of yester-century, after all.

[andy bessette]

..I think it is important to leave appropriate feedback for every transaction. To do that, you as a seller, must be able to determine that all the conditions of the sale have been met and the seller's obligations are complete. That would include inspection and testing of the item within the agreed upon time frame. If you can't do that then its your problem and not the sellers if you find something wrong after the term. Both the seller and the buyer have to complete all their obligations. [/QUOTE]

Yo Henry,

well said, and I couldn't agree with you more.


eBay really is largely a crapshoot driven by greed. We and millions of others go there in search of a "great deal" or a "real steal". We are hunting a price too good to be had otherwise. Otherwise we'd just buy what we want from the local camera store or our favorite dependable supplier who we might even know by name. [/QUOTE]

THIS I cannot agree on! With extensive ebay buying experience, I would like to point out the following:

One's local camera store and favorite supplier simply do not have the inventory to provide all the various used items which we can find on ebay. And when we are fortunate to find what we are looking for locally, we can expect to pay retail. Buying used gear allows us the freedom to try what we think we want, then pass it along, without great loss, if we decide to move on to another size/ style/ type. Ebay, and forums such as this, are convenient places to shop, particularly for those of us living outside a large metropolitan area. We, and millions of others, shop this way to find a terrific selection at used market price, not to "steal".

By the time you save on eBay and PayPal fees you'll probably get what you want cheaper. And they'll even take it back if there's a problem. There are more secure places to buy than eBay if you can't stand the odds there.[/QUOTE]

While a private party transaction is likely to be much cheaper, there are certainly more secure places to buy. And I personally do not think any set of guidelines will prevent the dishonest sellers, who I think are the minority, from taking unfair advantage.

best, andy

THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE

[neil poulsen]

I agree. The best way to solve a problem is to take steps that avoid the problem in the first place. Clear and accurate descriptions, encourage questions, and take time to fully respond to questions.

The most recent unethical behavoir I experienced was someone misrepresenting himself. His handle was (and probably still is) OlympusUSA. I thought I was dealing with old stock from Olympus. And, he used descriptions that deliberately gave that impression.

Having paid a higher price for that reason, I tried to back out of the transaction because I'd been misled, but EBay strong armed me into completing the deal. So, I did. On investigation, EBay has no rules against trademark infringement, which is illegal. They have a guideline, sort of, but no rules against it. Yet, the legal remedy for trademark infringement is withdrawing from the transaction. I think that EBay let me down on this one.

As it turned out, I got a nice lens out of the deal. It was in mint condition. Still, I disliked being hoodwinked.

[Marko]

Neil, at least you got a good lens, although expensive. It's the bad stuff you buy that's really expensive, no matter how little you paid for it.

As for sellers and ethical guidelines - honest people, by the very definition, will not cheat with or without an official rules of conduct. It is the crooks that bend the rules and one more will not stop them. If anything, it will make it easier for them.

[jnantz]

is there something in the guidelines that says if the seller
has the item listed in the wrong place, or discribes it totally wrong
because s/he had no idea what it is they are selling and thinks it is something
of lesser value, it is up to a buyer-in-the-wings to point out these things to the seller?

just wondering ... ;)

[cyrus]

is there something in the guidelines that says if the seller
has the item listed in the wrong place, or discribes it totally wrong
because s/he had no idea what it is they are selling and thinks it is something
of lesser value, it is up to a buyer-in-the-wings to point out these things to the seller?

just wondering ... ;)

Well there's nothing preventing the buyers from voluntarily agreeing to abide by a set of guidelines either.

[cyrus]

OK so ethical guidelines are perhaps pressing it too far.

However, how about if we collectively write a "Guide to not getting ripped off" for ebay LF purchases?

For example, reminding users that they can and should ask questions, demand better pictures/descriptions of items, etc. and also item-specific purchasing hints, ie: "if you are going to buy a thingamajig on ebay, make sure to ask about/see the little doodlythingy that goes with it, since the doohicky is usually bent/missing, and getting that fixed would require you doing XYZ..."
This would be particularly useful for first-time purchasers.
I realize that Ebay is an open market but that doesn't prevent buyers from uniting a bit.

[eddie]

funny, i built one of those shutter things too. just so i knew what shutter speeds i was working with. then i went out and shot everything with good exposures. i find it great to be able to use what i got.

i have had very good luck buying used camera gear from apug, photo.net, LF forum, and Ebay! all with very good results, great sellers and a good time had. (i should add i got a batch of 6V batteries that would not power my spot meter.....)

all i n all i am having a great time with my photography hobby.

eddie

[Henry Ambrose]

It seems this thread would be instructive to many on "how not to get ripped off". But if you wanted to start another thread about "how to fare well when buying on eBay" that might be a worthwhile thing to do. OT for this LF forum but for those not up on every detail of LF gear it might be useful. It might belong in the Lounge, that'd be up to the moderators I suppose.

But knowing a good bit about what you're buying is the first step and there is a huge amount of info here for that purpose. And then there's asking questions about particular items. I don't mean a particular eBay sale but rather questions like "is a Seiko shutter as good as a Flash Supermatic?" or "who can repair this Super Double Anastigmatic Deluxe should it need overhaul and how much does that usually run?"

And for the faint of heart, the "to busy to mess with eBay" or the uninformed beginner there's always calling up Jim at Midwest (or one of our other favorite suppliers) and asking him for advice and simply buying what he offers. You might be surprised that you didn't spend any more money and you get something good that works. That can be an excellent way to go and carries far less risk than swimming with the sharks on eBay.

[walter23]

Here are my suggestions about buying on e-bay.

1) Read the auction ad carefully. If the terms don't satisfy you then don't bid on an item.

Don Bryant

Yeah, if you expect a proper shutter speed test don't buy "shutter speeds sound good but I have no way to test them" auctions. You have to read the description carefully (considering what's omitted as well as what is stated) and ask questions; only then can you think about pursuing anything against the seller, and even then your recourse is often limited.

I don't think there's anything to be gained by drafting this kind of thing because only ethical sellers (and LFinfo users) will read it, which would be what percentage of ebay LF transactions? Probably a small one.

[Vaughn]

I would prefer if sellers would not define "good" as meaning: "good, considering how old they are".

Bought some plate holders in "good" condition, that fell apart in my hands taking them out of the box...and that was the answer I got from the seller. He did offer to take them back, but shipping them back would have cost me as much as I paid for them. So I will glue them up if I use them.

Vaughn