Strange lines on negatives with Jobo 3005 and Pyro

[Hugo Zhang]

This problem has troubled me for a long time: a strange line appears at the same area on almost half of my 8x10 negatives no matter what film I use. It's about 1 1/2" long and has ruined my otherwise good negatives. I use Jobo 3005 with Rollo Pyro and Pyro-HD and follow the instructions. Hand roll the Jobo drum on hard surface. Similar problem and solutions? Thanks.

[Michael Alpert]

I can only hazard a guess, so take what I am offering for what it's worth. The llne seems to be caused by stray light. I wonder if the dark slide of your film holder has a hair-line crack in it? Or perhaps the Jobo tank is cracked? I would think, though, that only one-fifth of your negatives would be marked if it were a crack in the tank. And if it were a crack in the back-standard of your camera, every image would have the same mark. Your images certainly seem worth salvaging with a bit of spotting. At least it's worth a try. I hope you find the cause. Please let us know the cause once the mystery is solved.

[sanking]

This problem has troubled me for a long time: a strange line appears at the same area on almost half of my 8x10 negatives no matter what film I use. It's about 1 1/2" long and has ruined my otherwise good negatives. I use Jobo 3005 with Rollo Pyro and Pyro-HD and follow the instructions. Hand roll the Jobo drum on hard surface. Similar problem and solutions? Thanks.

Do you mean the thin white line at the top of the first image and at the right hand side of the other two? If so, I don't believe this is a processing error. And if it is happening with several different types of film, it most likely is not an emulsion error either. It looks to me more like some kind of thread or hair was on the film when it was exposed to light. If so, this would result in a dark line on the negative and a white line on the print.

Sandy

[Hugo Zhang]

Sandy,

It could not possibly be hair. I clean my holders before I load them. I processed 20 negatives yesterday and that line appeared on 12 of them. This is just so weired. Same area from 10 film holders. I presoaked my films as always. The Jobo is brand new purchased one month ago. The previous one I used for 5 years till one of the holes cracked and leaking.

The first picture is Bergger 200 film and the rest two are jandc 100 film. I don't have this problem with my 8x20 or 10x20 negatives with Jobo 2850 yet.

[Brian K]

Do you mean the thin white line at the top of the first image and at the right hand side of the other two? If so, I don't believe this is a processing error. And if it is happening with several different types of film, it most likely is not an emulsion error either. It looks to me more like some kind of thread or hair was on the film when it was exposed to light. If so, this would result in a dark line on the negative and a white line on the print.

Sandy

I think Sandy has it reversed. A hair stuck on the holder would result in a clear line on the neg and a black line on the print. It's a shadow after all. I don't think it's a light leak because of the way it bends. Sometimes when sheet film gets a scratch, not hard enough to go clear through the emulsion, but enough to abrade the surface, you can get a mark like that.

[Michael Mutmansky]

Check your film handling procedures.

Do you wear a watch that has glow in the dark dials by any chance?


---Michael

[Bruce Watson]

Do you mean the thin white line at the top of the first image and at the right hand side of the other two? If so, I don't believe this is a processing error. And if it is happening with several different types of film, it most likely is not an emulsion error either. It looks to me more like some kind of thread or hair was on the film when it was exposed to light. If so, this would result in a dark line on the negative and a white line on the print.

Sandy

If it were dust, wouldn't it block the light reaching the film and leave that part of the image unexposed -- that is, clear film? That would make a black line on the print, yes?

Hugo, you can put the film on a light table and see these marks? Dark marks on the film? Dark marks on the film typically are from some means of exposure -- static electricity, light leak, reflections, etc. Interesting puzzle, this.

If it's only on the prints, then it's most likely something in the printing process. But if it's on the film... hmmm.... (sound of scratching of head). Maybe a crimp in the negative?

[sanking]

I think Sandy has it reversed. A hair stuck on the holder would result in a clear line on the neg and a black line on the print. It's a shadow after all. I don't think it's a light leak because of the way it bends. Sometimes when sheet film gets a scratch, not hard enough to go clear through the emulsion, but enough to abrade the surface, you can get a mark like that.


Yes, you are right. A hair would result in a clear line on the neg and black line on the print.

Perhaps it is a stress mark from bending the negative, either from inserting it in the holder or when putting it into the Jobo. Or it might be caused by static electricity.

Sandy King

[Ole Tjugen]

Any chance that all these are from the same side of the same holder?

If so, check if there's a scratch on your holder behind the film. The anti-halation layer is not 100% effective, so it might be a bright scratch inside the holder!

[Ken Lee]

Looks like a scratch to me. My guess is that you are scratching the film when loading/unloading the film. If you get an infra-red viewing device, (or borrow one) you will be able to see exactly what you are doing, and you may find out when the scratches are being introduced.

Do you remove the film from the box sideways, or lengthwise ? Do you place it into the Jobo sideways, or lengthwise ? I presume that you load the holders lengthwise, and these scratches are sideways.

[Oren Grad]

Do you place it into the Jobo sideways, or lengthwise ?

8x10 film will only fit into a 3005 lengthwise, unless you make a special effort to force it into the well sideways with the ends overlapping.

If there's a scratch on the negatives, it should be apparent on inspection. However, with a scratch I'd usually expect to see some area of reduced density in the negative, hence increased density in the print.

If I'd been shown the prints without the rest of the story, my first guess would have been a hair or fiber caught in the contact printer or negative carrier. Increased density in the negative in a slightly variable pattern like that is harder to explain. :confused:

[photographs42]

Hugo,
I can’t tell in the middle image, but in the first and last, the line is on opposite sides of the film (unless one was scanned upside down).

If they are in the same place, try placing two together on a light box to determine if they are exactly alike. If so, I would say it’s holder related. How many holders do you have? If the 20 exposures were from 10 or even 5 different holders, it’s unfathomable that the marks are related to light leaks or holder problems. Can you associate each film to the holder it was exposed in?

If they are only similar, I doubt if it is holder related. If they are scratches you should be able to tell under strong magnification. It doesn’t look like a static mark to me, but I have only seen that in books.

Besides the marks, are there any other elements common to the “have marks” but not common with the “have no marks”?

I like Sandy’s idea of stress marks from bending the negative, but I can’t imagine that you can handle 8x20 and 10x20 negs but clutch when it comes to 8x10.

So, I guess my best advice it to look for the common thread and try to narrow it down by elimination.
Jerome

[Michael Alpert]

Actually, the line of density is not on the same side of your negatives. In example 1 the density is toward the top of the image; in example 3 it is toward the bottom (i.e., after you turn the image to horizontal). It also seems to not extend to the edge of the image, though it is hard to see exactly where it ends. Given the irregular placement and given the season, I would not rule out static electricity. Perhaps you need to increase the humidity in your darkroom.

[Jay DeFehr]

It looks like a scratch to me, too. Check for burrs in your filmholders, darkslides, and in your drum.

Jay

[Hugo Zhang]

These lines have appeared when I used two Jobo 3005 drums. So the drum should be OK.

I have rechecked the 20 films I processed yesterday and found 13 negatives with these lines. I suspected there are another two negatives with such lines in the darker part of the negatives. The other five are fine and clear. I don't know if these five are from the same load. I processed all four loads the same way within three hours of time. These lines are in the same area of the negative: when I hold the negative horizentally with the notch on the upper right side, the line will be on the left near the middle part of film, exactly like my first example. The 20 negative are from 10 film holders which are fine without cracks. These lines are not scrathes. I know what a scratch is.

I don't wear watch when load and unload my films. All films are loaded lengthwise. I use the Jobo 3005 for my 5x7 Ilford HP5 too and no such lines. I have used Begger 200, Ilford HP5 400 and mostly jandc 100 lately. I don't recall such lines with HP5, but again I have only used a few of that film.

I will try to keep a record next time. I will also load the film the other way (with the notch on the upper right instead of down left) to see if the lines will appear in the same area.

[Vaughn]

I am assuming you are talking about the band right along the edge of the neg.

My best guess...Light leak and/or flare off the inside of your camera. The "dark" band right along the edge is caused by that area NOT getting fogged -- it is protected by the baffles in your camera. I notice the band is strongest when the camera is pointed roughly towards the sun. The sun does not show up on the neg, but its image is included (due to image circle being larger than the film) in the light being thrown into the camera -- lots of light entering the bellows and being reflected onto the film...perhaps by something painted a glossy black instead of flat black?

Check inside the camera for possible reflective surfaces...use a lens shade to keep extra light from entering the camera.

vaughn

Whoops...just realized that this was an old post...I assume you got the problem licked!