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MJSfoto1956
28-Dec-2006, 10:16
Ooops! We just were alerted by an alert APUG member of a bug in our free BTZS Calculator. It has been updated to build 3 and can be downloaded for free to registered users.

Thanx for the feedback so far!

sanking
28-Dec-2006, 13:31
Ooops! We just were alerted by an alert APUG member of a bug in our free BTZS Calculator. It has been updated to build 3 and can be downloaded for free to registered users.

Thanx for the feedback so far!

Does this one have the 31 step entry potential?

Sandy King

roteague
28-Dec-2006, 13:32
Ooops! We just were alerted by an alert APUG member of a bug in our free BTZS Calculator. It has been updated to build 3 and can be downloaded for free to registered users.

Thanx for the feedback so far!

Michael,

I'm curious where you found the algorithm to do the calculation. I've looked and never been able find it.

MJSfoto1956
28-Dec-2006, 14:24
I'm curious where you found the algorithm to do the calculation. I've looked and never been able find it.

I had nearly a dozen emails back and forth with Phil Davis. At first he was reluctant to explain things in detail as I'm sure his assumption was (given the kinds of questions I was asking) that I was just another "editor".

However, with persistence, I finally got him to explain things "under the hood". Turns out that part of his magic is that he uses "lookup tables" to assist with calculating the EFS when the paper has higher than 1.05 dynamic range (meaning that a subset of the calculations are based on anecdotal observation, not just algorithmic, which is the only thing in the end I still question the need for).

The math is relatively "easy" but I will continue to improve the calculator over time -- especially with your feedback.

chris_4622
28-Dec-2006, 14:40
How about one that works on a Mac?

roteague
28-Dec-2006, 14:55
I had nearly a dozen emails back and forth with Phil Davis. At first he was reluctant to explain things in detail as I'm sure his assumption was (given the kinds of questions I was asking) that I was just another "editor".

Thanks Michael,

From your response, I take it, the formula isn't in the public domain; which I understand. I was thinking of this more from a programming standpoint, since I'm a senior Windows programmer - I'm not a B&W photographer (I shoot 98% Velvia), so I wasn't interesting in actually using it. :eek:

MJSfoto1956
28-Dec-2006, 19:14
How about one that works on a Mac?

Yikes! It works fine on my Mac! (but of course, I happen to own MS Excel and clearly many do not). I'll have to investigate if there are any freeware MS Excel readers for the Mac and get back with you. There might even be a way to "convert" it so that it works with AppleWorks (but then you would need to own that application as well)

Thanx for reminding me of not forgetting my Mac heritage!

MJSfoto1956
28-Dec-2006, 19:17
Does this one have the 31 step entry potential?

Patience Sandy, patience! ;)

Doug Howk
29-Dec-2006, 12:26
There is NeoOffice (http://www.neooffice.org/) for the MAC, which my wife uses to handle MS Excel files. I haven't yet tried the calculator, but will make an effort over the weekend.

erie patsellis
1-Jan-2007, 15:18
another option would be OpenOffice, if I'm not mistaken there is a build for OSX.... in fact there is here http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/download/index.html
or one of the derivatives: Neo Office http://neooffice.org/

I have been using OO since it came out and quite honestly won't be upgrading any office apps I have.

erie

chris_4622
4-Jan-2007, 08:52
I successfully installed OpenOffice. Thanks for the link. I have my film tests done but need to get some numbers for Azo to plug in.

dng88
23-Sep-2010, 06:53
Hope some of you can share this, any one?

dng88
23-Sep-2010, 16:58
Got it and thanks!

jeroldharter
23-Sep-2010, 17:54
What is this calculator software? I use BTZS and am curious.

dng88
23-Sep-2010, 19:08
Short version: go to the OP and click on his link and in issue 2 you will find a primer of BTZS with a spreadsheet developed by the writer of that essay (Jorge Gasteazoro). It is useful and in Excel.

Long version: The OP magazine issue 2 (click on his link) and you will have a primer of BTZS. The spreadsheet is one of the way to undestand this. I read the book of Phil Davis and suddenly all the things I do not understand when reading Ansel Adams and Beyond Monochrome comes in. However, even though Phil being so good (and he is very good) in presenting his idea in his book, you sometimes want to have an alternative speakers. That issue and the writer (Jorge Gasteazoro, who is an ex-member here but later quit Pt/Pd LF later shockingly) has given a different presentation and also a spreadsheet to demonstrate (and in fact can be used for) how the BTZS could be in action. He also included photos (very good Pt/Pd one, once again shockingly sad he left photography) and how he metered.

Great essay, great magazine, but just not having the spreadsheet seems a bit of an issue and hence I asked.

I got it now but I really hope the original OP can release this to the public like the magazine itself as well. The magazine is goner (and is free at that time!) and releasing thois IP in public (open source etc.) would be nice for everyone.

The spreadsheet is really not intended as a replacement. But then again as time passed and if no further update in s/w version of BTZS, it might be the last man standing! Running Palm OS on jailbreak iPhone and running virtual Windows XP using Palm Desktop 4 (under Windows 7 as another BTZS poster used or VM under Mac OSX as one BTZS poser in BTZS.org used) is a bit too Matrix or Inception like.

I did get the BTZS software first and get the kindle BTZS book. Hence I hope that I am not in trouble. But may the OP / writer consider to release this. How about just send it to Fred and ask him to sell it as part of the package!

My take.

jeroldharter
23-Sep-2010, 20:20
Thanks for the info. I looked that up in Magnachrome and it was interesting. As it turns out, I just made a chart like that myself using my BTZS Plotter data because I don't like being dependent on the Palm.

Eric Rose
24-Sep-2010, 09:29
The link to the calculator does not work. Can anyone email me a copy of the excel spreadsheet please?? eric at ericrose.com

D. Bryant
24-Sep-2010, 22:38
The link to the calculator does not work. Can anyone email me a copy of the excel spreadsheet please?? eric at ericrose.com

I have a copy of the Magnachrome BTZS spreadsheet.

Don Bryant

Shen45
25-Sep-2010, 04:16
Check your email Eric.

Eric Rose
25-Sep-2010, 14:28
Thanks guys!

dng88
26-Sep-2010, 04:33
One minor thing when you read the spreadsheet is that the scale in the bottom does not maintain consistency. In Phil book the majority of the spreadsheet use 1/3 as the unit and also maintain the log. scale. Only SBR and development time is linear. Not in this spreadsheet:

figure 5 - print 1/3 stop per cell (scale is .1)
figure 8 - cumulative or all the film curve - 1/4 stop per cell (scale is .075)
figure 9 - first film - 1/2 stop per cell (scale is .15)
figure 10 - sixth film - 1/2 stop per cell (scale is .15)
figure 11 - EFS - 1/4 stop per cell (scale is .075)

The key change is the result graph, as it shift from log scale to non-log / linear scale:

figure 12 - SBR vs EFS - EFS is non-log scale i.e. 1 cell is 1 stop first, then 2 cell is 1 stop, then 4 cell is 1 stop

(It is not that strange and in fact "normal" way of presenting number i.e. using a linear scale as you just 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, 400, ....in other words 50 to 100 is 1 stop and 1 cell; 100 to 200 is 1 stop but 2 cells; 200 to 400 is still 1 stop but 4 cells. Just each stop takes different number of cells here and as the photographic world works in log scale, it is not natural.)

figure 13 - so is the EFS vs development time (which, btw, Phil did the same using linear scale on both x- and y- axis)

As I overlook this it take me a few days (to go through Phil's book in my Kindle under iPAD, which like all kindle very hard to digest if you are not reading it in a straight line fashion) to correct my misunderstanding and finally alert the scale changed. In between the confusion, even have to dig into 1st Ed of the Way Beyond to double check the scale used. Minor issues that waste a few days on me.

In brief and once again, one can appreciate that the whole thing is quite a bit of effort, especially if look at Phil's book having so many version of arriving at EFS. The way the writer to put a moving triangle as a graphic device is great.

Unfortunately the spreadsheet is protected and hence use it or nothing you can do about it. I think e.g. the original question of 31 steps (by Sandy King) is still valid today. End of line now and hence sad, especially 2nd edition of Way Beyond is still has no computer aid tool and BTZS is the only system in play. As said, it becomes more and more difficult to use that system without upgrade.

But anyway a good exercise and once again thanks for sharing.

JohnN
26-Sep-2010, 06:25
Can anyone email me a copy of the spreadsheet?

jnistico@att.net

Thanks!

BarryS
26-Sep-2010, 07:19
I'd also really appreciate it someone could email me a copy. Thanks!

Barry

dng88
26-Sep-2010, 16:30
To avoid legal charge (not that I think OP and the writer may go for us on an international IP case but then US has Hurt Locker case), may I suggest who has received one send one out and please do not state here you have received any just that you have not. At maximum we will have 1 charge of "mail and share" a spreadsheet getting free originally. Would that "file sharing" scheme ok?

D. Bryant
27-Sep-2010, 05:06
To avoid legal charge (not that I think OP and the writer may go for us on an international IP case but then US has Hurt Locker case), may I suggest who has received one send one out and please do not state here you have received any just that you have not. At maximum we will have 1 charge of "mail and share" a spreadsheet getting free originally. Would that "file sharing" scheme ok?

I've got the file, if anyone wants it e-mail or PM me and I'll send you a copy. I don't think there is a legal issue here because the file was made available for free use and distribution to begin with.

Don Bryant

D. Bryant
28-Sep-2010, 14:40
I've got the file, if anyone wants it e-mail or PM me and I'll send you a copy. I don't think there is a legal issue here because the file was made available for free use and distribution to begin with.

Don Bryant

Okay I've e-mailed the file to everyone who contacted me. Just a reminder though, the BTZS hand dial could also be used instead of a Palm Pilot. A good Palm to use is the Zire if those are still available. Any Palm device using the Palm OS should work fine for BTZS software. I would strongly urge anyone wanting to use BTZS to purchase the software from the View Camera Store. It has a lot of excellent features such as plotting paper curves which can be using even for alt. processes.

Don Bryant

Shen45
29-Sep-2010, 01:24
Hi Don,
I have used 3 Palm models for my Expodev software. The oldest is an IBM work pad C3, then a Tungsten E, and a Zire 22. From the oldest to the newest no problems with the software running under the various versions of the Palm OS. Why so many Palm Pilots? Well when I found out they were no longer going to be made I bought second hand ones as backups. Only problem is they are all totally functional and will probably out last me :)

The IBM work pad C3 was the only oddball as it uses a cradle to hotsync with the computer which is serial - the others are USB.

The IBM work pad C3 is probably the favourite even though it is a mono screen. It is a purely dedicated photographic tool. It cost me $15.50 on the auction site.

Shen45
29-Sep-2010, 01:32
I purchased both WinPlotter and the ExpoDev in 2004 from Fred and Dennis at the View Camera store and really once you are set up there is nothing like the system.

dng88
29-Sep-2010, 18:26
Hi Don,
I have used 3 Palm models for my Expodev software. The oldest is an IBM work pad C3, then a Tungsten E, and a Zire 22. From the oldest to the newest no problems with the software running under the various versions of the Palm OS. Why so many Palm Pilots? Well when I found out they were no longer going to be made I bought second hand ones as backups. Only problem is they are all totally functional and will probably out last me :)

The IBM work pad C3 was the only oddball as it uses a cradle to hotsync with the computer which is serial - the others are USB.
Re
The IBM work pad C3 is probably the favourite even though it is a mono screen. It is a purely dedicated photographic tool. It cost me $15.50 on the auction site.

Palm is a good platform. I got the first version when attending gg conference in Disney Orlando in 1996. I bought a apple newton at that time and it is so rubbish that I use this silly thing they hand out. I think that is their first real sale. Got 6 and in fact to avoid running from virtual palm Under iPhone, I get two a second hand treo 650 for $125.

But all these will die.

Shen45
29-Sep-2010, 21:52
And eventually so will we :)

denisfraser
5-Jul-2011, 09:45
Hi Don,
This whole discussion has answered a great deal of issues I have been having with the zone system and is indeed a revelation. I would like to try the spreadsheet model is there a possibility of getting a copy to me? I would like to mess around while reading the book I will eventually buy a palm and the software but it would be nice to give the speadsheet a shot. The article in Magnachrom really clinched it for me. Best wishes Denis (denisfraser at msn.com)

frednewman
5-Jul-2011, 12:34
To all those interested in BTZS:

I've just reduced the price for the Plotter for PC and Expo/Dev software set, to $69.95 for the summer. If you mention you saw this on the Large Format Photography Forum, I will refund your shipping shipping. I didn't realize there was so much interest in BTZS. Any questions please email me.

Fred Newman

Shen45
5-Jul-2011, 22:01
Fantastic value Fred.

Steve

JohnN
11-Jul-2011, 04:54
Could someone send me a copy of this spreadsheet to jnistico at att.net?

Thanks so much.

denisfraser
12-Jul-2011, 00:54
I would also appreciate a copy if possible! denisfraser at msn.com

Best wishes

D. Bryant
12-Jul-2011, 03:56
I would also appreciate a copy if possible! denisfraser at msn.com

Best wishes

Denis,

Did you read my original post in this thread carefully?

Don

denisfraser
12-Jul-2011, 15:46
Denis,

Did you read my original post in this thread carefully?

Don

HI Don, I did, but am I missing something?

D. Bryant
13-Jul-2011, 06:50
HI Don, I did, but am I missing something?
Yes Denis. I asked that you PM me or send e-mail to me. I don't get notifications of posts made in this thread. So send me a PM with your e-mail address or e-mail me and I can fulfill your request.

I'm not trying to be petty but as I said I don't normally follow this list and I don't want others reading this thread thinking that I follow it. So as they say read the directions carefully. So far I've replied to dozens of request.

Good luck,

Don

denisfraser
14-Jul-2011, 02:13
Yes Denis. I asked that you PM me or send e-mail to me. I don't get notifications of posts made in this thread. So send me a PM with your e-mail address or e-mail me and I can fulfill your request.

I'm not trying to be petty but as I said I don't normally follow this list and I don't want others reading this thread thinking that I follow it. So as they say read the directions carefully. So far I've replied to dozens of request.

Good luck,

Don

I understand, thanks Don much appreciated, time is a very precious commodity. Pity that a FTP link via the forum couldn't be fixed for others in the future. Also a shame that the Magnachrom magazine is no longer available too. Kind regards Denis