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Lazybones
27-Dec-2006, 17:03
Hello everyone!

I'm about to invest in some new ("factory fresh") lenses. Comparing prices, both Badger and Midwest have significantly lower prices than, say, B+H. I want to get the best deal that I can, but have taken pause after reading some comments relating that "new" lenses from Badger arrive in non-factory sealed packages and lacking paperwork. Are these lenses truly new? Is the deal too good to be true? What is the "deal" with these dealers? :)

...Or should I pay the big bucks at B+H (as I did with my 150mm APO-Symmar L), and know that I'll be getting factory fresh goodness, warranty and all?

Thanks!
LB

evan clarke
27-Dec-2006, 17:08
Hi,
Nope, Jeff is the straight deal and so is Jim at MPEX. I have bought sll my new lenses from these two guys..Evan Clarke

Kevin Crisp
27-Dec-2006, 17:14
I have purchased several new Schneider lenses from Badger with complete satisfaction. Midwest also has a great reputation, though I have not dealt with it.

David Karp
27-Dec-2006, 17:18
I have never dealt with Badger (heard only good things about them). I have dealt extensively with Jim at MPEX. I have purchased a LF camera, 4 lenses, some accessories, a Nikon D70, plus more I am sure. Each transaction has been smooth. Jim is great to deal with. Very highly recommended.

brian reed
27-Dec-2006, 17:18
I've bought a brand new Fuji lens from Badger a few months ago and was in factory sealed never opened bag and box with all paperwork.
I don't know where you heard that rumor from , but is not true, both Badger and Midwest are excellant companies to deal with.
BR


www.brianreedphotography.com

Ted Harris
27-Dec-2006, 17:20
I deal with all three. Dealing with b&H is dealing with a big business. Dealing with Jeff or Jim you are dealing with real people. I consider myself lucky that I can call them both friends as well as suppliers. They are two of the most honest straightforward vendors in this or any other industry. Don't know wht else to say :).

Eric Leppanen
27-Dec-2006, 17:22
Badger (and presumably Midwest) typically imports lenses themselves (so called "grey market") rather than purchasing through the authorized US distributor, hence much of the price difference versus more traditional dealers such as B&H. But if you don't need local warranty coverage (the odds of needing glass repair are remote, and shutter repair is not terribly expensive using sources such as Flutot's), then by all means take the money and run. I have bought many lenses over the years from Jeff at Badger and Jim at Midwest, and all have been top-notch quality. If there is a problem they will stand behind their product, either swap it out or arrange to get it repaired by the manufacturer (it just may take a bit longer than getting it repaired by the local distributor).

naturephoto1
27-Dec-2006, 17:25
Generally the lower prices from Badger and many of Midwest are for gray market items. That is not always the case however. Badger imports the Fuji LF lenses and the Toho cameras directly from Japan. After discussions with HP marketing and Schneider, they have indicated that Badger does not sell US warrantied lenses and would not fall under the lifetime warranty (they may be importing them directly??). I am not sure if HP Marketing has changed the Rodenstock warranty from lifetime to 5 years. As I understand it Midwest does at least carry some US warrantied lenses, but you will have to check as to which are US and which are International warranties.

Rich

Geary Lyons
27-Dec-2006, 17:29
In the Large Format "Hall of Fame", these two gentlemen are the original nominees for best supporting characters! You can not go amiss with either!

Cheers,
Geary

Frank Petronio
27-Dec-2006, 17:29
Both places are excellent and reliable.

Ron Marshall
27-Dec-2006, 17:30
Last year I bought a Fuji lens from Badger, and it was factory sealed with warranty.

I have dealt with Badger many times, and Midwest a few times and have always been completely satisfied, both for new and used lenses and cameras.

jnantz
27-Dec-2006, 17:31
i purchased a toho 5x7 to 4x5 lens board adapter from badger years ago, and i bought a boatload of used 8x10 film holders from mpx a few years ago too. both places are great to deal with. they know the products they sell, and they also offer friendly service.

have fun
john

Bob Salomon
27-Dec-2006, 17:45
You can not get "factory fresh" from either at prices lower then B&H. They are grey market lenses purchased from a retailer in another country and then transshipped to the dealers you mentioned. They were not shipped by the factory to either dealer and there is no Lifetime warranty on the glass or a 3 year warranty on the shutter. In fact, since these lenses were purchased from a transshipment there is no service on them, in or out of warranty, in the USA from factory authorized service should you need it. The only warranty source is the dealer that imported them and that would only be available in Germany or in the country the dealer who originally purchased them is located.

Kevin Crisp
27-Dec-2006, 18:00
I think I just learned a new definition of "fresh."

Michael Graves
27-Dec-2006, 19:04
I've bought from all three. The best service came from Badger and Midwest. The worst came from B&H. The only warranty runaround I ever got was from B&H. Bought a Mamiya from them a few years back and inside of six months the shutter was jammed. B&H gave me an address and told me where to go. The only time I even needed help from Midwest their response was "Send it back. We'll take care of it."

In both situations, I was eventually up and running again. But I guess I prefer gray market. The service is better and a hell of a lot more polite. Just spent nearly $800 with Midwest this afternoon. This time I was buying used. The fellow on the other end described every mark on the camera I was asking about, told me to run two or three rolls of film through it (Oh, GOD, I'm SORRY!!! It's a medium format!!!) and if I didn't like it to send it right back.

Walter Foscari
27-Dec-2006, 19:15
If all the positive feedback you have received so far were not enough, here's another one. I've spent thousands on used and new merchandise from both of these gents. I've never got anything less than top notch service and prime quality stuff.

Capocheny
27-Dec-2006, 19:20
I wouldn't hesitate in recommending either Jim or Jeff at either of the two establishments. They're both first rate sellers and will look after you.

If you really want US products (not Grey market) then ask that the product be non-grey market. I'm sure Jeff or Jim can arrange that for you.

Regardless, they're the people I deal with when I need something from the US! :)

Cheers

Rory_5244
27-Dec-2006, 19:31
I'll join the chorus of praise. Service is impeccable from Jeff at Badger Graphic. The service is also personalised. I bought my Canon digital gear, Fujinon lenses, and Arca 4x5/8x10 from Jeff with no problems. The items were also shipped half-way round the globe to me. Jeff is one of the few left of a dying breed.

Rick Moore
27-Dec-2006, 19:38
In 2001 and 2002 I purchased three new Fujinon lenses from Jeff at Badger Graphics. All were new, in perfect condition. I had Jeff mount them on lens boards, so they were not sealed, but he also shipped the Fuji boxes and paperwork. The only indication that they were imported directly from Japan was that the booklets were in Japanese.

Although I have never needed service on any of these lenses, I have absolutely no doubt that Jeff would stand behind any product he sold. No doubt whatever. You will never deal with a more honest business person.


Rick

tim atherton
27-Dec-2006, 19:42
I had Jeff mount them on lens boards, so they were not sealed, but he also shipped the Fuji boxes and paperwork. The only indication that they were imported directly from Japan was that the booklets were in Japanese.

Rick


Of course they would have to be imported directly form Japan as Fuji doesn't import lenses into LF N. America (and possibly not into Europe either?)

Mark Stahlke
27-Dec-2006, 19:43
I can whole heartedly recommend Badger. I have dealt with them extensively and never had a problem.

I have no finincial interest in the company except that when I think about how much money they got from me, I feel more like an investor than a customer. It's scary. :D

sami
27-Dec-2006, 20:01
Hi,
I can endorse bussiness ethics of Jeff at Badgers,as I have purchased fuji ,cooke lenses and a Tripod head over the years.His service is First class.I have no experience dealing with jim at Midwest photo.

Syed

Claude Sapp
27-Dec-2006, 20:03
Have dealth with both, and both have gone *WAY* beyond what is expected with regards to customer service. Would not hesitate dealing with either, and glad they are here for us.

Walter Calahan
27-Dec-2006, 20:17
I completely trust both stores. I've bought from Jeff at Badger for years. Wonderful service.

rob
27-Dec-2006, 20:22
I also endorse Jeff and mpx. Their responses to inquiries are also very quick (in few hours or less). I think we should support vendors who seriously support LF.

Lazybones
27-Dec-2006, 21:55
Wonderful! Thanks for putting my mind at ease, everyone! Now, which one of the two to order from...

Ted Harris
27-Dec-2006, 22:03
New, flip a coin .... used Midwest has a much larger selection

Lazybones
28-Dec-2006, 03:35
Ok, thanks again!

Steve Hamley
28-Dec-2006, 05:15
Last time I checked, Midwest would offer either USA or gray on many products, as does B&H. Support is superb. None of them (B&H, Badger, MPEX) are selling you anything that isn't correctly described in my experience, unlike many of the flashy ads by vendors in mainstream photography magazines. You pay you money and take your chances. I haven't checked with Jeff at Badger lately about new vs gray, but their support is also superb.

I'm guessing that both these establishments replace defective gray products as a matter of business policy and have the bad ones serviced or replaced by the overseas people with whom they do business.

An important distinction needs to be made in support of Bob Salomon though. If you're a working pro, buying all your gear USA from the official importer has advantages - you know who supports all your stuff and you can frequently write off at least part of the increased expense of USA products on taxes. The price differential between USA and gray with respect to support is less meaningful for people who don't pay their daily bills with their gear, which is why many prefer to buy gray from various dealers offering superb support as a matter of business policy.

Steve

Marco Annaratone
28-Dec-2006, 05:25
Can someone tell me what happens to a fully functional lens or a camera sent back to the store after, say, a week? Is it then sold as 'used'? Is it put back into the 'new' pipeline? Is it sent back to the manufacturer for a clean bill of health (and then sold as 'new')?

I sense ample opportunities for less than transparent behavior, or am I just being naughty? :D

Rakesh Malik
28-Dec-2006, 07:25
I don't know the answer to that, but my experience with Badger has also been quite good. I ordered three lenses from there, two of them used one new, and I also ordered lensboards with them. I didn't even think of asking them to mount the lenses, but they did it for me anyway. The used lenses I got from them have served me very well since I got them (in March!), and the 300mm Fujinon (used) has turned out to be my most used lens.

Scott Davis
28-Dec-2006, 08:08
I bought an older used canham 5x7 wood field from Jim at MPEX. The back had a problem with it that was a design flaw in the early cameras, so that the wood flange that slots into the back to hold the back in place split off on one side. This happened after I had the camera about a month, and about two weeks before I was to go on a trip to Argentina with it. I called Jim, and he had Keith Canham express ship me a replacement back at no charge, and told me to return the bad one to him after I got back from Argentina. Now THAT is first-class customer service. Providing warranty support for a used camera, and in a manner to meet my time constraints. You can't ask for better.

Frank Petronio
28-Dec-2006, 08:43
Someone with deep pockets might buy three identical lenses and keep the best performer, returning two like new lenses to the dealer. This leaves the dealer in a pickle. Some will charge a 10-15% restocking fee, others will let it slide because the customer still bought an expensive item.

If I got a box with the seal broken I would actually feel more confident about the item knowing that Jeff or Jim had actually looked it over and made the determination that it was still "new". For something as exotic as a view camera lens or body, I understand that people are going to want to look these things over, manipulate the shutter or movements, try things out. I am certain they rarely have more than 1-2 of the more exotic items in stock at any given time, and at some point somebody is going to call and ask for a measurement or ask question that requires opening the box.

Now, as for buying the lenses that somebody rejects.... well it is a crapshoot and I doubt there are any real dogs that pass the major manufacturers' inspections. If I got a poor performer I wouldn't hesitate to return to either of the these guys. I know that if I tried that with B&H ("It just doesn't feel as sharp...") they'd give me a huge hassle.

Dean Cookson
28-Dec-2006, 09:28
I've had good experiences with both of them, just like everyone else it seems. I bought by Canham 8x10 woodfield and a Nikkor 450mm from Jim at the Monterey View Camera conference and a 90mm Nikkor from Badger a couple of years before. Both times I got good quality merchandise and excellent prices. What's more, when I bought the Canham from Jim I was clearly an 8x10 newbie and he gave me excellent advice, good prices and no pressure when I was looking and deciding.

Marco Annaratone
28-Dec-2006, 09:35
I think that this lack of clear guidelines on how to handle returns is one more reason to deal with people like Jeff or Jim. I bought quite a lot of stuff from them and I have never been disappointed. When Jeff says that something used is 'mint' you can bet your farm it's really mint.

The issue of returns isn't such a big deal with LF gear, I guess, but with digital stuff is a heck of a problem. A case in point is the issue of front- or back-focusing in AF lenses, often returned after a few days because 'the AF is out of whack'. Something that can in fact be explained with (1) inflated expectations on the part of the customer or (2) with the presence of a truly defective mechanism, with all the shades of grey between 1 and 2. Store owners have a difficult call to make here, I mean re: what to do with the returned lens...

Marko
28-Dec-2006, 10:27
Now, as for buying the lenses that somebody rejects.... well it is a crapshoot and I doubt there are any real dogs that pass the major manufacturers' inspections. If I got a poor performer I wouldn't hesitate to return to either of the these guys. I know that if I tried that with B&H ("It just doesn't feel as sharp...") they'd give me a huge hassle.

Well, I have to say I did try just that with B&H some time last year. I bought a new Canon L lens with a rather underwhelming performance. Needles to say, I didn't hesitate to call and request an exchange. They did give me that famous "Nu-Yohker" attitude initially, but once mutual credentials were established ;), there were no furhter problems, no hassle whatsoever.

They did ask questions, which is normal with an item in that price range. They did not even attempt to argue my points - once they determined I was legit, they issued me an RMA and even emailed me a pdf file containing ups sticker. Yes, they paid for shipping both ways.

I bought from them on several other occassions, and aside from the attitude which is more an image than a real thing IMO, I've got nothing but good things to say about them.

I haven't bought anything yet from either Jeff or Jim, but chances are I will in the future. Based on what I've been reading here, I should be looking forward to it too.

David Karp
28-Dec-2006, 10:48
Never had a problem returning anything to B&H, including an expensive wide angle lens for my MF camera. No attitude, no issue. Like Marko, all I had to do was explain my reason, and it went back no problem.

darr
28-Dec-2006, 14:26
I have bought from all three and have had returns to Midwest and B&H over the years. Not a problem with any of them. My return to B&H was a darkroom tank and I made the mistake and ordered the wrong model. As long as I paid for return postage they accepted it back without a hassle. Without Badger, Midwest and B&H I could not play LF!

Ben Chase
28-Dec-2006, 15:20
Thumbs up for Badger here...

abel
28-Dec-2006, 19:09
I've only had experience with Jim at Midwest. I have bought many items and have nothing but complete satisfaction from him. His customer service is superb. You cannot go wrong dealing with him.

Abel

Ben Calwell
28-Dec-2006, 19:20
I'll try to keep from gushing, but Jim at Midwest is as trustworthy as they come. I've dealt with him for at least six years and have never had a problem. The things I've acquired from him sight unseen have always exceeded my expectations.
I recently purchased a used Fuji lens that he described over the phone as having slight polish marks.
When it arrived, though, it looked to me like a brand new spanking lens -- pristine. Midwest is great to deal with.

MJSfoto1956
28-Dec-2006, 19:25
I second Midwest Photo Exchange -- my experience for the past dozen years with MPEX is nothing but top notch. Good prices, good service, knowledgeable people.

John A McDonald
28-Dec-2006, 20:47
I agree. I just purchased two lenses from Badger (80mm Super Symmar Asymetric and 150mm Apo L) and both arrived in original factory sealed cases. I also purchased a new 210 Apo L Symmar directly form Schneider ($860 direct) and it arrived with a factory warantee and lifetime guarantee that needed to be returned but in same packaging. Jeff at Badger has been great to deal with.

Dave_B
28-Dec-2006, 21:06
I have also dealt with both Badger Graphic and Midwest Photo numerous times over the years. Both are first rate and I have never been less than completely delighted with my interactions. Both are highly recommended.
Dave B.

naturephoto1
28-Dec-2006, 21:46
I have used both for a small amount of equipment and/or film. Both have been very good. My Toho FC-45X arrived from Badger today. :D

Rich

Jess Lee
29-Dec-2006, 00:48
As others have said.
I would ad Jim at mpex is the only retail dealer I trust to give a great description on a used lens. He will freely tell the real difference in a lens that is many dollars less expensive than another in his inventory. This alone has save me hundreds.
Then he will stand be the lens if you want a return.
Both are great places to do business with.

Michael Jones
29-Dec-2006, 06:23
I have spent more money with Badger and MPEX than my wife realizes. Both are great and absolutley trustworthy. That said, B&H has received my money too, but I prefer Jeff or Jim for personal service. Good luck.

Mike

riooso
29-Dec-2006, 22:12
Just got a brand new Fujinon 240A this week from Badger. Sealed bag with paperwork in Japanese. I live in California and ordered 2 Day and got it 3 days from order date. There is only "grey market" when you are dealing with Fujinon because they do not have a distributor in the US. B& H does not carry the 240A from what I could find. I like Midwest also, good outfit. They look so good when they are new, don't they?:p

Richard Adams

Joseph O'Neil
30-Dec-2006, 08:40
The last "used" Fujinon lens I bought from Badger this year was in perfect shape, all papers included, and no marks anywhere - not even on the box. It could of been sold as new and I would not have known the difference. Probally the lens was used once by the original owner and put back in the box. Wahtever the story, I consider myself lucky to such a good used lens.

joe

Michael Graves
30-Dec-2006, 15:05
The "8+" Mamiya 7 that I just paid Midwest $800.00, including a lens, arrived today. I only ordered it on Thursday and I live in Vermont. I guess the fact that the lens cap wasn't an original Mamiya dropped it to 8+, because it looks brand new to me. One more STRONG vote for Midwest. I'd been looking around for one of those as a hand-held camera for some time, but the cheapest one I ever found with a lens was around a thousand and showed serious wear.

David Crossley
18-Jan-2007, 19:35
Just another vote for Jeff @ Badger. Top marks all around!

David Crossley/Crossley Photography....

Vaughn
18-Jan-2007, 22:08
After all my 5x7 equipment got ripped off, I took the insurance money (minus a hefty deductable), added some more money to it and gave Midwest a call. I guess I should have checked around more (this was before eBay), but they set me up with a used Zone VI and used Fuji W 300mm on a board for a good price -- and both were in perfect condition. I was lucky I called the right people.

Vaughn

mdd99
20-Jan-2007, 06:02
Both Jeff and Jim give you personalized service you won't get at behemoths like B&H. And if there is a problem, they'll fix it fast. Their reputation in my book is first rate.

Andre Noble
20-Jan-2007, 08:46
I have had THE BEST service from B&H Photo Video. They are less emotionally attached to the deal, honest, and responsive. Yes, my experience with them has been better than MPEX, and better than Badger!

To each his own.

David Karp
20-Jan-2007, 09:58
After all my 5x7 equipment got ripped off, I took the insurance money (minus a hefty deductable), added some more money to it and gave Midwest a call. I guess I should have checked around more (this was before eBay), but they set me up with a used Zone VI and used Fuji W 300mm on a board for a good price -- and both were in perfect condition. I was lucky I called the right people.

Vaughn

I don't think you have to worry. I think that many times MPEX's prices are lower than those you find on e-Bay.

merlo.luca1961@libero.it
20-Jan-2007, 10:14
As an international purchaser I found B&H, Badger and Midwest to be excellent LF equipement resorces. Anyway, I must say that I prefer to deal with Jeff at Badger since he is a very knowlegble salesperson, an excellent internet communicator and a super nice person.

Luca

Michael Alpert
20-Jan-2007, 12:30
lazybones,

I have also had superb honest service from Jeff for many years. His new lenses are new.

You say "after reading some comments relating that "new" lenses . . . " Okay, exactly where did you do your reading? I'd like to personally contact the person who said this.

Lazybones
20-Jan-2007, 13:55
You say "after reading some comments relating that "new" lenses . . . " Okay, exactly where did you do your reading? I'd like to personally contact the person who said this.

I think there was some commentary in here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=15123&highlight=80mm+super+symmar). If I remember correctly, the problem was a bad run a Schneider, but a few people took issue with the dealers for some reason. There was another thread as well, but I cannot remember which one now. I'm not worried about any of this now, with all the positive feedback! Thanks again to everyone!

Lazybones
6-Feb-2007, 14:39
Just to follow up:

I ended up ordering a 210mm APO-Symmar L, which recently arrived from Badger Graphic. Jeff came across as being quite pleasant during the ordering phase. Good "vibe." The lens is fresh. Really fresh. Its QC card is dated from mid December, 2006! Huzzah! All looks great so far... Time to test with some film... If there are no issues, there will be an 80mm SSXL in my near future. :)

cobalt
6-Feb-2007, 18:39
I don't think that there exists better service than that provided by Jim at Midwest...

Michael Graves
6-Feb-2007, 18:47
Add my vote for both. I've only ordered a couple of times from Badger, but both orders were fast, cleanly packed and factory fresh merchandies. I haven't bought new from MPX, only used. But they routinely underrate their equipment. I have a very difficult time imagining that if they won't cheat you with used gear, where it's so easy to do and so hard for the customer to complain....why would they even think about it with new gear.

I used to sell photo gear many moons ago and the people that trash places like Badger and MW are either 1) competitors or their employees, 2) authorized distributors or their employees or 3) people who had one bad experience and assumes that's the way it always is. Oddly enough, while you'd think the last one would be the most common, it isn't really the case.

DrPablo
6-Feb-2007, 20:48
Interestingly, that Nikkor 120 AM ED Macro that we all just gobbled up new for $299 at B&H is going for $575 used at MPEX.

By the way, does Badger have a used inventory? Their website typically only lists 3 or 4 items.

Oren Grad
6-Feb-2007, 21:37
By the way, does Badger have a used inventory? Their website typically only lists 3 or 4 items.

Very limited. They're not primarily a used equipment dealer, but will sell items on consignment for their customers.

If you have a specific requirement, though, do call and ask - they may have something on hand that hasn't been posted yet. Not long ago they sold a couple of items for me. Those items never made it to the web because someone happened to call at just the right time, looking for what I had offered for sale.

Brian K
7-Feb-2007, 08:03
I've dealt extensively with B&H, Calumet and Badger. They are all different animals but all have been honest and professional. B&H is a huge business, you will not get much in the way of personal service or hand holding from them, however they are honest and have integrity and tend to stock almost everything. Badger is a small company, more limited stock, although for LF users they are very well stocked, provide very personal service, Jeff takes good care of me, and are also honest with high levels of integrity. Calumet is somewhere in between, while they are a large company, you can have a more personal relationship, and service, with them if you tend to deal with the same sales people everytime. They too show high integrity however their focus is moving much more towards digital and LF gear is going out of stock with them rapidly.

My best advice is to have relationships with a few dealers and use each one when they best suit a particular purchase.

Rakesh Malik
8-Feb-2007, 09:01
Just to follow up:

I ended up ordering a 210mm APO-Symmar L, which recently arrived from Badger Graphic. Jeff came across as being quite pleasant during the ordering phase. Good "vibe." The lens is fresh. Really fresh. Its QC card is dated from mid December, 2006! Huzzah! All looks great so far... Time to test with some film... If there are no issues, there will be an 80mm SSXL in my near future. :)

I got a brand-new 80mm Super Symmar-XL (because I couldn't find any used ones) from Badger last year, and although it's not my most used lens because it's so wide, when I DO use it, I am quite pleased with the results.

There are a couple of images up in my Picasaweb gallery (link in .sig) that I've used it for.