Is this a Toyo 45A or 45AII?

[Kevin Bradbury]

I just purchased a Toyo 4x5 field camera, and am trying to clarify exactly what camera I have here. The camera was advertised as a Toyo 45AII, but the camera is labeled "Toyo-Field 45A" on the bottom outside plate. While I would not object to owning a 45A instead, I would not have paid the same price for a 45A as their market values are not the same.

Reading the forum posts here and elsewhere, I have heard several distinctions mentioned between the two models. The problem is that I have only one camera here and am not comparing the two side by side. Below are some details that I hope will help those familiar with both models to identify this camera:

- First and foremost, the inside front standard says "TOYO-VIEW 45AII" and the outside bottom plate says "TOYO-VIEW 45A." This could be because:
(a) all Toyo 45A/AII cameras say "45A" on the outside (this possibility can quickly be confirmed or dismissed by current 45AII owners)
(b) this is a "transition body" where it's functionally a 45AII but has the 45A label on the outside (e.g., early Hasselblad 500C/M bodies still said 500C but were functionally 500C/M's, referred to as transition bodies)
(c) all Toyo 45AII cameras say "45AII," and this camera is a 45A and has had a replacement front standard from a 45AII installed
(d) other
- I have read that the color changed from glossy to matte. My camera has glossy (if comparing to wall paint) paint and matte leatherette. I'm not clear which (paint or leatherette) is being discussed when someone says they changed from glossy to matte.
- I have read that the knobs on 45A cameras are plastic and do not have rubber around them, and that 45AII cameras have metal knobs with rubber. My camera has plastic knobs with rubber. The knobs on the front standard are metal with rubber, but all other knobs are plastic and have a rubber inset around the knob).
- I have read that some components have Teflon coating in the 45AII, but without a second camera for comparison, I would need more detail to know how to tell if my camera has the new coating. I have not noticed any Teflon, however.

I appreciate any insights anyone may have.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Ted Harris]

Kevin, sounds like you have a II. Can you post a couple of pictures?

[Kevin Bradbury]

Can you post a couple of pictures?

Absolutely. Please let me know if there is a specific view that would be helpful.

Thanks,
Kevin

[roteague]

The 45AII has a rotating back; you should see a small push button on the top left hand side. With the 45A, you have to take the back off to rotate if from the horizontal to vertical position. That is the major difference between the two cameras. Only the newer 45AII cameras have the teflon coating, I have one and it doesn't (it's about 6 years old).

[Ted Harris]

Robert,

Interesting ..... I have a 45AII-L that is older than that and it has the Teflon coating. Of course the L model is an oddball and much more limited production.

[Kevin Bradbury]

Robert - yes, this has the rotating back, but I thought that the late 45A's had the rotating back. Interesting that the earlier AII's don't have all the differentiators I found in my research. Perhaps the transition was more gradual and I have a very early AII or very late A where they even had mixed the labels?

Robert and Ted - Is the outside of your AII labeled "45AII" or "45A"?

Thanks,
Kevin

[walter23]

Robert - yes, this has the rotating back, but I thought that the late 45A's had the rotating back. Interesting that the earlier AII's don't have all the differentiators I found in my research. Perhaps the transition was more gradual and I have a very early AII or very late A where they even had mixed the labels?

Robert and Ted - Is the outside of your AII labeled "45AII" or "45A"?

Thanks,
Kevin

If it has all the functions of the AII you were expecting I wouldn't fret over the cosmetics.

[Kevin Bradbury]

If it has all the functions of the AII you were expecting I wouldn't fret over the cosmetics.

I know, and I honestly don't care about the cosmetics. I am, simply, trying to determine if the seller misrepresented the camera so that I can pursue the issue if that is what happened.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Per Madsen]

It looks like a early Toyo 45AII. The front standard still have shiny sides like the
Toyo 45A and the outside plate is a Toyo 45A plate.

What is the serial number of the camera ?

My Toyo 45AII was from march 1994 has 120-0300490 and it has no hybrid features.

[roteague]

Mine has 45AII, but is missing the bed plate. I'm not sure if it was ever there. Also, I think Per is probably correct it being an early model. Mine is about 6 years old, and the serial number is 120-2002274. I may be mistaken about the Teflon coating.

Personally, I love the camera, but need to replace mine badly. I accidentally dumped it into the ocean a couple of years ago, and it is starting to corrode in places - surprising that it has lasted as long as it has. I'll probably buy a new one this summer.

[Ted Harris]

Kevin, mine says 45 AII on the bottom plate where yours says A and the front side rails of mine arae all black where yours are partly shiny. Again, a caveat that mine is an AII-L so there are bound to be minor differences.

The important point is the price you paid. Some benchmarks for you to consider; a mint condition A sells for ~ 800 to 900 and an AII for a few hundred more in teh same condition, perhaps even as much as 1200 to 1300 with the L models going for yet another few hundred more. Yours looks like it falls a bit short of the mint category. You might want to call Jim at Midwest and discuss price and condition. I know he has an A right now in the 800-900 range.

[walter23]

I know, and I honestly don't care about the cosmetics. I am, simply, trying to determine if the seller misrepresented the camera so that I can pursue the issue if that is what happened.


Okay, that makes sense.

[Kevin Bradbury]

What is the serial number of the camera ?

Serial number is 16-4610600


The important point is the price you paid. Some benchmarks for you to consider; a mint condition A sells for ~ 800 to 900 and an AII for a few hundred more in teh same condition, perhaps even as much as 1200 to 1300 with the L models going for yet another few hundred more. Yours looks like it falls a bit short of the mint category. You might want to call Jim at Midwest and discuss price and condition. I know he has an A right now in the 800-900 range.

I paid $1025 based on it being an AII. For an A in the same condition/circumstances I would have paid no more than $725. When purchasing from an established dealer (vs. an unknown individual as in this case) I have no problem paying a couple hundred more. For some reason I didn't think to check out Midwest but I will give them a call and see what they have.

Thanks,
Kevin

[toyoman]

Wow, just a grand. To confirm, yes it is a AII. The AII and the A are identical in style, and the only difference is the back. Along with the rotatable back, it came with the brighter screen. The older ones had a hard plastic knob and the newer ones circa 94/95 on came with the aluminum ones with textured rubber. The really early ones had a grey body color and was a little larger and had more bellows draw (13 inches instead of the current 12). For the AII, I'll debate your price only if it has the earlier solid plastic knobs. Also, the front locking mechanism can loosen with serious usage. This problem can only be remedied by replacing internal worn out parts, since there is only a very small amount of adjustment. All of the other alignments are fully adjustable over time. I am just about ready to post the whole 1995 Toyo catalogue and will come back to this string to let folks know. There seems to be a very limited amount of illustration of the differing models for Toyo line, and when I got mine in 1995, I got the catalogue with the purchase. The funny thing is that the photos illustrating the AII has both the newer style knobs and the older ones. The catalogue also flips discriptions between 45A and AII for the camera.

[roteague]

The funny thing is that the photos illustrating the AII has both the newer style knobs and the older ones. The catalogue also flips discriptions between 45A and AII for the camera.

Looking forward to seeing whatever you post. FWIW, from what I have seen, the English translations of Toyo's various products, including their manuals - which are almost unreadable - is pretty bad.

[Kevin Bradbury]

Many thanks to everyone for all the help. You've told me what I needed to know.

I will be heading down to Florida in a couple of weeks to Everglades and am looking forward to using the new camera in the field.

Thanks,
Kevin

[toyoman]

Whew, got the pages loaded on my funky site (a work in progress, of course). The 1996 Toyo catalogue is at this address:

http://www.gregwphoto.com/toyo_catalogue.htm

I have separated out the pages for those only needing a little information. For those willing to download a PDF version (3.6 megs), it is also available on the same page. This was more work than was expected but I hope this helps out a few folks who may have specific information needs. There have been so many out there that have posted generously their knowledge of large format stuff, it's the least I can do as sort of a payback to the photo-community.

[Ralph Barker]

Thanks for the effort, Greg.

[tim atherton]

cool - thanks!

Could we link to this somewhere in the LF Camera pages? Or have the PDF on there?

[toyoman]

I just found the catalogue for just the AII (not the owners manual, but a nicely printed brochure), and a Mamiya America Corp Toyo catalogue from a later time. It has some of the same info as in the posting but it also has little info goodies on the AII 'L' which some folks seem to like talking about. It also has another newer camera, the 45cx, and a really nice looking compact toyo loupe (been looking for that one, but haven't seen them for sale). I'll post the 'different' pages later next month.

Don't know about providing a 'link'. Other folks in charge with have to go with that idea. At some point, I figure if there are enough folks going to the page via google that it'll be a searchable item...

[evan clarke]

I know, and I honestly don't care about the cosmetics. I am, simply, trying to determine if the seller misrepresented the camera so that I can pursue the issue if that is what happened.

Thanks,
Kevin

Hi Kevin,
If it is a good camera and does the job for the price, don't worry about name designations. My guess is tht this was assembled from parts of a couple cameras...EC

[toyoman]

Hi everyone,

I have posted the updates for the 1996 toyo catalogue with updated excerpts from the 1997 one (domestic). The original catalogue has the designation of an 'a' for the page s that have updates. Watch out, cause the updated PDF has grown to 4.4 mb. I also stumbled across a 1985 online catalogue that I provided a link to on the page. Interestingly enough, the 45 model in 1985 seemed to be the most modern design out of what they were making at that time. Here's my page link again:

http://www.gregwphoto.com/toyo_catalogue.htm

I also plan to post a 1988 fujinon calalogue that has all the information you would ever want, even their estimated weights given by the factory and their lens schematics, and will let folks know.

[Ted Harris]

Also see the 1981 and 1997 Fujinon catalogues that Kerry Thalmann has on his website http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/brochure.htm