Monorail cameras

[merlo.luca1961@libero.it]

I own a 4x5 Shen Hao camera and I am satisfied with its performance in the field with the exception of its limited bellow draw that is limiting the usage of this camera when above all when using my Nikkor 300 M. I was then thinking to purchase an Ebony 4x5 SV, when I came across the sites of a couple of renown American second hand camera traders. I could realise that the prices of monorail cameras have really dropped alot (what is the reason for that by the way ?) and I am now considering to buy a monorail 4x5 camera with longer bellows to be used also in the field. Is it a good move ? Do you have any suggestion for me ? I was thinking about a Sinar (F1 or F2 or a Toyo) but I fear that I will have to buy also 5 new boards for my lenses that are now assembled on Linhof type boards.

[Ole Tjugen]

A Linhof Color uses Technika boards, has 42cm of bellows, and can be bought for around $100...

It's not the most versatile camera, but it's fairly lightweight and easy to use in the field.

[Jean-Marie Solichon]

Salve Luca,
After years of Toyo field camera I started to use a Sinar f1 six months ago with great pleasure and efficiency. But yet if I have to hike for many hours I still take the Toyo field (a CF in this case). As far as lensboards are concerned you can purchase a Sinar to Linhof adapter.

[Nick_3536]

Luca most monorails are intended to be used in the studio or not that far from the car. So it'll depend on how you use the camera.

I wouldn't worry about the lensboards. Shen Hao sells an adapter to fit Linhof 96mm boards to it's 5x7 and bigger cameras. You might be able to order just the adapter. If you can't other companies also make similar adapters.

[Greg Miller]

I switched from a field camera to a monorail for partly the same reason. I found a folding field camera to be too illogicial in its movements and too limiting by design. As with most things it is a compromise. I ended up choosing an Arca_swiss F-Line field. I love using the monorail and it is very logical in its movements and is very versatile - all while still being realtively light weight and compact. The biggest compromise is price - these do no come cheap. But there are other monorails suitable for field use.

[Alan Davenport]

A monorail has no downside in the field, if you shoot like Edward Weston. That is, within 500 feet of the car.

Monorails are notoriously unpopular with photographers who must load their camera into a backpack and schlep it any distance to the scene of the crime. They (monorails) are large and heavy compared to field cameras. You may need to disassemble a monorail to get it into a backpack, and it may still weigh 10 - 12 pounds, vs 4 pounds or less for a field camera.

[Michael Kadillak]

A no brainer. You need a Linhof Bi Karden that accepts your linhof boards as they are.

Precise adjustments, long bellows and Linhof - need one say more?

I have an extra 4x5 Bi camera in near new condition if you are interested. I use one in 5x7 and 4x5 and they are simply marvelous to use. View Camera did a story on the Kardan series a while back.

Cheers!

[Daniel Geiger]

For every camera there are some pros and cons, so you have to prioritize. If you are unhappy with your field camera, you will have to accept a bit more weight. I went from 35 mm straight to monorail (Arca F 4x5): I want to add movements, and I want to get as much movement as I can. I use the monorail almost exclusively outdoors.

Re weight and carrying it around, it may be good motivation to get into better physical shape. And schlepping it around is good excercise. There are issues with longer than day hikes, but possibly more due to space than weight. One of the compromises I do is only to do dayhikes, and try to start already at a promising spot (no walking in for miles). The most I've done is possibly around 6-8 miles over lava field in Hawaii, and about 15 miles +2000 ft elevation on Catalina Island on a trail. Usually it is just 2-6 miles on a trail.

Re lensboards, there are adaptors, or you can bite the bullet, get new boards (not that expensive anyway compared to a new camera) and sell/trade the old ones. I would select the camera on its own merits, and get the lens board solution that is required, not the other way around.

my 2c

[Songyun]

Is there any compact monorail other than arca F-field or misura?

[Marco]

Ciao Luca, you have received lots of great advices!!

I've used and owned a Gandolfi Variant 4x5", a Calumet C1 8x10" and a Sinar F2 8x10" (now with a 4x5" back too), and yes, mono rails are at the top for what concern performances and are a joy to use (very precise, rigid, the movements are smooth, Sinar has a dof/tilt "calculator" too that can help in some situations), but I would never bring a Sinar (even one of the F, field, line), or any monorail camera if I have to hike a lot or have to do landscape photography in "extreme" conditions/locations (i.e. Dolomiti, Alpi, deserts), it's not only a question of weight/portability, it's a question of "easy" of use in the field too, in those situations I think that a folding camera is the way to go...

So it depends on what kind of photography are you interested in and, as other said, how far from the car are you going to take your large format camera ;) ...



Ciao
Marco

[Struan Gray]

I take my Sinar Norma on what people here would consider to be long day hikes. As Daniel said, the problem is not so much the weight as the bulk: fitting a camera, several lenses and enough film into a pack with the kit for a week-long backpacking tour will tax your packing skills. But it's not as bad as, say, a rack of climbing kit, or one of those monster canvas tents they tend to load teenage hiking parties down with.

A pack weight that is regarded as normal amoung adventure sports people is routinely decried as outrageous here. Get in shape, get a good pack and boots, and LF won't break your stride at all.

I am on a long lens kick at present: this summer I used 80% 420 mm and 15% 250 mm lenses, the 150 and 90 really only coming out to check framing when scouting locations. Unlike popular wisdom I do use a fair bit of movement with longer lenses, even when taking landscapes, so the flexibility and stability of a monorail made a lot of sense.

I would love an Arca F-line, but can't justify the expense. My Norma collapses down well enough onto a short rail that it seems crazy to replace everything for a tad less bulk. Sinar Fs and the pre-F-line Arcas are also cheap and readly stowable. Other monorails like the Cambos and (in Europe) the Plaubels and Linhofs are even cheaper, but accessories (like extra rail sections) can be hard to find, and some do not pack down as small, even if you disassemble them.

I have a Sinar-Technika lensboard adapter and recommend using one - or the equivalent for your camera. Not so much to save weight or the expense of re-lensboarding, but to cut down on bulk: 4-5 inch lensboards take up a lot of room in the pack, and in an awkward way.

[Frank Petronio]

Struan is 100% spot on. The Sinar monorails are a great value when compared to the newer Arca-Swiss cameras (which are very nice). And a Sinar Norma or F2 are fairly light -- I think my F2 is in the 8 lb range, about the same as a Technika or heavier Ebony. What you get is a virtually unlimited range of expansion, so that you can build it to use practically any lens. They are also very stable cameras and have a wider range of movements.

But if I did a lot of hiking I think the best monorail value is one of the older Arca-Swiss monorails made before the F series. They are even lighter than the current Fs or most other monorails. Ansel Adams used one -- is that good enough?

Many people here seem prejudiced or misinformed against monorails. The 2.5 lb Toho and the even lighter Gowland are probably the lightest production 4x5 cameras -- and they are monorails ;)

[Nick_3536]

A pack weight that is regarded as normal amoung adventure sports people is routinely decried as outrageous here. Get in shape, get a good pack and boots, and LF won't break your stride at all.



The problem is it's the camera on top of all the other stuff. So it's not a normal weight. It's normal plus the camera. If you're out long enough you still need to pack everything from water to dinner.

How many serious hikers are looking at lighter gear? Lighter packs etc?

[Ole Tjugen]

Many people here seem prejudiced or misinformed against monorails. The 2.5 lb Toho and the even lighter Gowland are probably the lightest production 4x5 cameras -- and they are monorails ;)

I've swapped one small light monorail (Linhof Color) for a slightly heavier monorail which packs better and is more likely to survive hikes in very difficult terrain: The Carbon Infinity.

In 5x7" I've gone from an ultra-rugged Technika III 5x7" to an almost as rugged Gandolfi Traditional - equally precise, but quite a bit lighter.

If I were going to save more weight, I should be looking for a lighter 300mm lens than the Symmar 300mm f:5.6...

[naturephoto1]

The problem is it's the camera on top of all the other stuff. So it's not a normal weight. It's normal plus the camera. If you're out long enough you still need to pack everything from water to dinner.

How many serious hikers are looking at lighter gear? Lighter packs etc?

Hi Nick,

Many serious hikers do. That is why I and many others have looked to sources such as Backpackinglight for information about light weight backpacking equipment (we as large format photographers carry some of the heaviest, most dense, least compressable backpacking equipment). I have gotten much of my light weight equipment based upon their information. However, because of what we as photographers and particularly large format photographers use, I would not really consider getting a very light or ultralight pack to carry all of our backpacking equipment along with our camera equipment. The suspension system of those packs are just not able to comfortably deal with so much weight and volume. The same can be said for boots. It would certainly be nice to be using ultralight runners, but with our pack weights, I do not think that these boots will supply ample support.

Here is a link to BPL (Backpackinglight):

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/index.html

I know for myself, I could cut some of my backpacking equipment and equipment weight down. But I want to at least have a light weight tent (rather than bivy) to protect my gear and pack. I want a good suspension system pack harness and waist belt. This is why I bit the bullet and had a custom made McHale pack made for me.

I have gotten to the point though that the only way that I can have a substantial reduction in pack weight is to substitute the Toho FC-45X to take the place of my Linhof Technikardan 45S for backpacking and hiking. This will save me approximately 4 1/2 pounds off of my back. At this point, I can only probably save only about 1/2???? pound by substituting even lighter lenses to my 3 or 4 lens 4 X 5 lightweight backpacking kit.

Rich

[Struan Gray]

The problem is it's the camera on top of all the other stuff. So it's not a normal weight. It's normal plus the camera. If you're out long enough you still need to pack everything from water to dinner.

How many serious hikers are looking at lighter gear? Lighter packs etc?

True enough.

My point is that LF gear isn't so very heavy compared to what other wilderness aficionados will carry to fulfil their dreams. How does LF compare to a kayak portage? An ice climbing rack? An iron skillet and portable oven? A dead moose?

For me, LF is too bulky, heavy and slow for trips combined with other activities - which includes family walks - but if photography is the main order of the day it's worth a bit of time in the gym.

I have the knees to prove it :-P

[merlo.luca1961@libero.it]

I was not thinking to bring the attention of so many people with my question and I wish to thank you all for the very kind advice. It seems to me that while view cameras are still holding their value during time (and most of them are really overpriced for what they are), there are so many good deals to be done with monorails that I wonder if it is wise to trade some bulk and weight with (what I think, a much better efficiency). I will be considering a Sinar F1 or F2 to add to my 4x5 Shen Hao and equipping it with a SK lens adaptor as someone suggested. I tried to get some news about the bellow extension of this cameras. Any of you has an idea ? Can these cameras carried around already mounted and ready for use ?

Ciao to all.

Luca

[Marco]

I will be considering a Sinar F1 or F2 to add to my 4x5 Shen Hao and equipping it with a SK lens adaptor as someone suggested. I tried to get some news about the bellow extension of this cameras. Any of you has an idea ? Can these cameras carried around already mounted and ready for use ?

Ciao to all.

Luca


The standard 4x5" Sinar bellows has a max extension of 45cm...if you wanto to use your Sinar at full extension you must add to your "standard" rail (usually 30cm. long) an extension rail (there are rails of 15cm and 42cm)...if you want a longer bellows extension you can add another 4x5" standard bellows, Sinar is a complete modular system and every piece could be linked to another one...

Yes, you can carry around your Sinar F already mounted (but it depends obvioulsy on the capacity of your bag), some people mount the Sinar on a 15cm (6") rail and in this "configuration" is quite compact (addying an extension rail subsequently)...actually there's a way to "fold" the Sinar, have a look at this link, http://yandr.50megs.com/sinar/f/page14-15.htm, and here you can find the Sinar F operating instructions http://yandr.50megs.com/sinar/f/f.htm...

I also suggest to buy a book, "Photo Know How. The Art of Large Format Photography" by Carl Koch and Jost Marchesi, here you will find everything you need to know about the Sinar system, the book is out of print but maybe you can find some used copies on Amazon...I have the italian translation at home, it's not mine so I can't give it to you, but if you live near Milan contact me by email (info at cristinamian.com )...


Ciao
Marco

[Struan Gray]

A couple of additions to what Marco has said.

First, the Norma can't fold the the same way the F does. That said, I have never seen the point of doing that anyway - the lens isn't any more protected, and you have to re-attach the bellows when you set up.

With many monorails you can slide both standards onto a short extension rail to create a compact brick. The Norma on a 15 cm rail is about 18 x 25 x 30 cm in size and weighs around 3.5 kg with a normalish lens. With my 90 mm and 150 mm lenses I just use the 15 cm rail and the travel on the focus sliders. With longer lenses - or for closeups - I add a 30 cm rail and slide the standard to where I want it.

With the two rails and one end cap - and a normal, modern bellows - I can just focus a 480 mm barrel lens at infinity (if the mounting flange is at the back of the lens, as on most process lenses). That uses up most of the travel on the focus slides and stretches the bellows so that it isn't really pleated any more, but it is doable. An 18", 460 mm barrel lens was my standard for a time, and allowed me to focus closer, but an 18" lens in a shutter needs more extension because the lens is no longer cantilevered out in front of the lensboard, and you are back to infinity only. I now use a 420 mm lens in shutter as my long lens, and can focus close enough for portraits should I wish to.

Of course, you can always use longer lenses yet, but you will then need to add more rail, a second bellows and an intermediate standard to join the two bellows together. It adds significantly more to the weight and bulk of your system than just one more lens, especially as you will almost certainly need a second tripod or at least a rail-stabiliser as well.

[merlo.luca1961@libero.it]

Grazie Marco (excellent site and very good pictures by the way .......) and thanks Struan for your kind answers. I now really start to think that Struan and the all the other people that kindly answered my post are right. Using a monorail camera in the field is not so cumbersome as it appears and, since what I shoot is usually not very far from my car, this will definitely allow me to have all the benefits that a monorail can offer without too many drawbacks. If you add to this that the prices of used monorails seem to me much lower that used field cameras and a USD/Euro exchange rate of 1,31 there is really no contest between the two options. On e-bay are currently apperaing deals of Sinar F1 or F2 for less than a second hand Zone IV or a Wisner wooden camera and I do not mention the price of a brand new Ebony or Lotus. So, apart the undisputed beauty of such cameras, I think that a good monorail as the mentioned Sinar F1 and F2 can offer much a better option in most situations in terms of quality/price. What do you think about my point ? I woul like to know your opinions.

[Ken Lee]

Another option is to get a field camera that delivers adequate bellows draw.

I purchased a Wisner Technical Field (http://www.wisner.com/) camera, in used but very good condition, for around $600. Another option would be a Canham DLC45 (http://www.canhamcameras.com/allmetalf.html).

Both of these cameras offer enough bellows draw to accommodate a 450mm non-tele lens, such as the Fujinon or Nikkor. Compared to many monorails, they are light and compact, as well as quick to set up in the field. The do not need to be broken down and re-assembled when placing in a small bag.

[Jim Ewins]

My 8x10 B&J rolls off the rail is bundled into foam, stuffed in a back pack with the rail, lenses, dark cloth and holders, etc. No problem

[merlo.luca1961@libero.it]

Ciao Jim and ciao Ken. Thanks for the advices. Jim you consider lucky to have purchased a 600 USD a Wisner. As far as I know they usually are fetching much higher prices on ebay. These high prices and above all the controversial reactions that Wisner have lately got from some clients in terms of its assistance to clients, suggested me to stay away from second hand Wisner cameras. For what Caham are concerned, they do not appear so frequently on ebay and their prices are also quite high. So, in case someone is interested in a view camera with a bellow draw of around 450 mm, the best option reamains probably the Ebony. Actually there is the option of getting a a 5x7 camera (Shen Hao for example) and a 4x5 reduction back.