FP4+ dev question

[false_Aesthetic]

Heya,

I'm not even sure if I'm asking the right question so be patient with me (perhaps I'm asking this in the wrong section)

I'm developing fp4+ in hc-110 (solution b). I'm scanning these images (imacon). At 32x40 (240 dpi). The edges of things aren't as sharp as I want them (accutance?)

I thought that maybe this may be a result of analog --> digital and thereby rectified with USM. But then I realized that when I shoot and scan color neg. the edges of things seem more defined.

This leads me to think that maybe I should switch developers...something with better accutance maybe.

First, am I wrong in my thinking (i.e. color film vs b/w film)?

Second, what dev. should I be looking at? Does anyone shoot fp4+? What dev. do you use?


Thanks.

T.

[Ron Marshall]

I used to use HC-110 with FP4 in a Combi-plan, and it was very sharp. When I switched to a Jobo I found HC-110 was a bit grainy. I am very happy with FP4 in Rodinal, XTOL or Pyrocat-HD.

I scan on an Epson 4990, so I only print up to a 3x enlargement. I print at 360 dpi. The prints are quite sharp.

I don't know if an 8x enlargement from an Imacon scan would be that sharp? For a larger viewing distance 240 dpi should be fine.

[Henry Ambrose]

First, am I wrong in my thinking (i.e. color film vs b/w film)?

Second, what dev. should I be looking at? Does anyone shoot fp4+? What dev. do you use?

T.

Probably wrong in your thinking. You may be seeing something else in your color scans but I doubt its edge sharpness unless you're looking at very contrasty adjacent colors or such. Try a more aggressive curve in post processing or in the scanning software. Also a coarse USM can get you some extra local contrast which may help with the appearence of sharpness.

The smoother color negative dye "grain" might be fooling you as well. Real B&W silver grain may be hiding sharpness on screen at high magnification. A print will tell the true story.

I use Xtol with FP4 and I'm very happy with it. I'd think HC110 would be just fine as well. Its pretty hard to make FP4 look bad. I doubt a developer change will make any difference.

[j.e.simmons]

If you are seeing edge sharpness, you might search this site, APUG, and michaelandpaula.com for "stand development", "minimal agitation", and "extreme minimal agitation." The essence of the posts is that reduced agitation and dilute developers increase the edge effects. Some folks use dilutions of HC-110 to achieve this effect.
juan

[Bruce Watson]

I'm developing fp4+ in hc-110 (solution b). I'm scanning these images (imacon). At 32x40 (240 dpi). The edges of things aren't as sharp as I want them (accutance?)

I thought that maybe this may be a result of analog --> digital and thereby rectified with USM. But then I realized that when I shoot and scan color neg. the edges of things seem more defined.


I think what you are seeing is the scanner, not the film.

The difference between the two films is very large. One has an image formed of metallic silver. The other has an image formed from dye clouds. All other things being equal, this difference alone can account for what you are seeing.

When any scanner scans a modern color film (negative or tranny, doesn't matter for this discussion) the light passes through the dyes with very little light scatter. When it scans a conventional B&W film (that is, not a C-41 process film), light passing through the film is blocked by the metalic silver. It can't pass though and is therefore reflected in some direction. This light scatter has a name. It's called the Callier Effect.

Callier Effect results in a lowering of local contrast that is in proportion to local density. That is, more dense parts of the film result in a scan file that looks flat. There will be an accompanying loss of sharpness.

There are some things you can try to minimize the effect and improve you scan files. First would be to have the film drum scanned by someone who understands B&W and has a scanner and software that is "negative friendly." This will, if nothing else, show you the difference between a CCD scan (line at a time) and a drum scan (pixel at a time). You should find that your B&W film is just as sharp as your color film.

Second, you could optimize your film for scanning. That is, develop for lower Dmax. This works because lower density means lower silver which means lower Callier Effect. It has the happy side effect of lower graininess also, so the resulting highlights in the print are smoother. I wouldn't do this with film you are also going to print in a darkroom as the resulting film can be a serious PITA in the darkroom.

Third, you could move to a smaller grain developer. You'd loose a little sharpness on the film, but you might get a little more sharpness in the scan file. You'd have to experiment and see.

Forth, you could move to a higher actance developer. This would give you a little more sharpness on the film, and might translate to a little more sharpness in the scan file. I'm doubtful of this because it would also increase graininess a bit which would in turn increase Callier Effect. At least it would in theory. Again, you'd have to experiement and see.

Fifth, you could move to a compromise position, like XTOL 1:3. This is what I did with 5x4 Tri-X. It gives a bit smaller grain and a bit more sharpness than HC-110H (at least, that's what it did for me). The resulting film scans nicely for me.

Sixth, you could try a T-grain film like Delta 100 or 100Tmax. This films have a reputation of being somewhat easier to scan. I have no experience with them however so that's all I can say about it.

Good luck with it.

[false_Aesthetic]

Bruce,

WHOA! Thanks.

Totally informative---you never hear profs talking about the Callier Effect in digital classes.

I gotta go do some testing now.

Thanks guys!

T

[Ole Tjugen]

Seventh, you could try a staining developer. The stain, which is proportional to the silver density, will to a certain extent counteract the Callier effect. Some users have reported very good results with this. I can't vouch for it myself, since I don't scan my negatives - only finished prints.

[C. D. Keth]

Bruce,

WHOA! Thanks.

Totally informative---you never hear profs talking about the Callier Effect in digital classes.

I gotta go do some testing now.

Thanks guys!

T

That's why I'm glad I go to RIT. I know exactly what he's talking about :-D

About the film scanning problem: I think it's the scanner or some setting. I use FP4 in 5x7 size, developed in D76 1+1 for 11 minutes. My negatives are very easy to print in the darkroom and scan beautifully once I figured out the input curves I like. The files could be printed FAR larger than I have the money to do and would look just fine.

[Lenny Eiger]

I would certainly move to a drum scanner. It will be much sharper than a flatbed, as in Imacon, or any other CCD device. I have a scanning/printing service bureau and the results on this are pretty universal.

Further, I have been unimpressed with the sharpness of FP4Plus. I am angry about it as I used to use FP4, which was a great film, IMO. My issue is more about the lack of a full tonal range, altho' FP4 Plus is better than most. I use PMK, haven't found anything better.

Lenny