Help with first lighting set up.

[Martin]

Hello,

I recently started into LF photography, and this is my first post on the site. Its nice to have a resource like this on the net.:)

Currently I am shooting with 4x5, a 90mm f8 and 210mm f6.8 lens. I'm interested in starting to practice and learn more about studio photography. My main area of focus will be portraits, and also some macro work. For the portraits I'd like the complete head to be in focus, when taking head shots (f64?), and the body to be in focus while taking full body shots. Right now I'm working in only b&w, but would like to start some color work after I learn some more.

So now comes the question. I don't think it would be possible to get the kind of lighting I need with hot lights, so I guess I'll be working with strobes. Although I would like some other sort of mono light in order to aide in focusing (might need to be somewhat bright considering my f-stops). Well, what type of set up should I be looking at? From those experienced in this field, what type of power (w/s?) would I need from a light to achieve my goals?

I would be perfectly happy with a single flash set up, and I think it would be a bit less expensive, and also keep things more simple and allow me to learn. Money is a factor of course, as I'm a student, but if I could get started with a resonably small investment ($500), then I think I'd go for it.

I ask that you keep in mind, I'm still learning much of the vocab for lighting and such, so it would be most helpful if you explain any terms you use.

In advance, thanks for your help!

Regards,
Martin

[Robert Oliver]

I prefer a minimum of two lights when shooting portraits, but have used more than 4 for specific situations.

Usually I want a main and a fill light on the subject unless I am trying to get edgy, contrasty lighting. A hair light and a background light are useful too, mostly to get your subject to stand out against the background.

I think your most inexpensive flash option would be strobes called alien bee's. never used them. I've done well with dynalite equipment for years professionally. good stuff, but you won't get much in your price range.

You can also experiment with cheaper forms of lighting like a couple of 4' fluorescant fixture from your local home improvement center and send them through a white sheet for diffusion. Color balance won't be an issue for b&w and shutter speeds should be slow enough to not worry about the flicker in a cheaper fixture. The closer the sheet is to your subject the softer the lighting effect you will achieve. without a sheet for diffusion you will get some long, skinny highlights. Another bonus is that the fluorescants don't get very hot.

with this setup, subject movement will be your biggest problem because you will need slower shutter speeds to get the kind of depth of field that you are requiring.

[Ron Marshall]

Welcome to the forum Martin.

If you really want f64, and I think f32 will be fine with 4x5, then you will need lots of power. The most powerful White Lightning monolight, (they also make the Alien Bees line) will put out f64 at full power with a naked reflector. If you want any light modifiers take off a stop or two. Bellows factor will take off another 1/2 to a full stop for a tight head shot.

Here is a link to the White lightning web-site. Have a good look at their site as they list the output of their strobes with various modifiers:

http://www.white-lightning.com/x3200.html

[Walter Calahan]

Martin

With large format, you need a lot of photons. One light isn't enough, unless you mix in strong daylight as your fill. If you use any light modifiers (ie- soft box or umbrella) move the light in very close to your subject.

When starting out, your main light is the sun which gives you texture and shape to the subject, and your fill light is the sky which opens shadows. The sky produces no shadows so the fill light always comes from the camera. Your main light acting as the sun can move around from left to right, up and down, to cast the direction shadow that you see in nature.

A third light is good to have for opening up the background.

I use Dyna-lite strobes.

See my portraiture on my portfolio page: http://www.walterpcalahan.com

[Frank Petronio]

I bought a set of 4 heads and two pack -- really old dynalite 804 D series gear from the early 1980s -- for only $150 on eBay. One head needed a flash tube ($96) and another was a tosser. But still it worked perfectly and the light was equal to a new set-up.

Personally I rather have a 25 year old professional set of Dynalites (or Speedotrons) than a new set of plastic monolites. They are heavier but you get what you "weigh" for.

By fewer but higher quality -- don't get gyped getting those $200 Chinese lighting packages...

Shooting portraits at f/32 will drive you crazy (and require tons of gear and probably look harsh and nasty anyway). I like shooting wide open for short depth of field and bokeh but you can acheive nice "normal" portraits in the f/11 to f/16 range.

[Nick_3536]

Student? Does your school have anything you can borrow? Do they have any student packages you can get a deal on?

You can always rent. A weekend of gear isn't very much money and will let you try before you buy.

The problem isn't just the lights. You end up spending money on softboxes. Meter. Or any of the other nice to have tools.

[Ralph Barker]

Almost everything with large format is a series of trade-offs, and I think this is particularly true with large-format portaiture. Thus, I'll touch on a few issues I feel you need to think about and explore.

Beyond just DOF, there is also the issues of "perspective" or facial geometry (i.e. foreshortening) that is determined by lens to subject distance and the nature/quality of the lighting to be considered. Longer lenses will help keep the "perspective" more natural-looking, but will reduce DOF and increase the amount of bellows extension, along with any exposure compensation that might be required at closer distances (e.g. head shots). There is a point of diminishing returns with respect to getting a head-only shot on film. As such, you may find that composing more loosely and simply cropping the neg when printing may be beneficial.

Similarly, the nature/quality of the lighting will be influenced by the effective size of the light source in relation to the subject. Larger light sources, such as those achieved with soft boxes, will produce "softer" lighting that many find more pleasing for portraiture. Soft boxes and other light modifiers, however, also consume light intensity, and thus require greater exposures. Multiple light sources, as Walter noted, are a big advantage in portraiture. That allows better control of shadows and contrast, along with the ability to separate your subject from the background, etc. Some of this can be done with reflectors - white or silvered panels, or even strategicaly-placed mirrors. But, having multiple lights is usually easier and quicker to set up.

Although not dedicated to portraiture, I'd suggest you get a copy of "Light - Science and Magic" by Hunter and Fuqua. It's an excellent book on general lighting, and will speed you on your way toward understanding the nature and quality of light for various subjects.

As to the question of hot lights or strobes, I agree that strobes are usually preferable when working with people. Most, if not all, of the better studio strobes have modeling lights that are usually sufficient for composition and focusing (at maximum aperture). The modeling lights won't be sufficient for checking DOF at reduced apertures, however. You'll need supplemental lighting for that purpose, but then you start running into setup time issues. The longer you take, the more likely it is that the subject will move, even slightly, which often negates your focusing efforts.

I agree that buying cheap import lighting equipment is usually a waste of money. You're generally better off in the long run by buying into a product line that offers the features you desire, and expand that system over time. I think the monolight vs. power-pack decision is a personal one. My impression is that portrait photographers often prefer monolights, while commercial studio shooters working in large metro areas tend to prefer power packs and their big cables. Big-city art directors often equate a big set of Speedotron units with "professionalism", so there's also a marketing aspect to the choice. Regular people, however, likely won't care.

Achieving small apertures, as noted, takes lots of photons. High-output strobes aren't cheap, but can often be found at great savings on the used market. I use a pair of White Lightning X-3200s as my main lights, and supplement them with smaller White Lightning units. Although a single X-3200 will allow f/64 with the small chrome reflector, using a softbox will reduce that to f/32 or less. (Remember, with strobes, the effective shutter speed is determined by the duration of the flash itself, so using a slower shutter speed doesn't buy much, except added ambient light.)

So, bottom line, you'll need to weigh all of these issues and determine what is going to work best for you.

[Frank Petronio]

http://www.strobist.blogspot.com/ read this

[Martin]

Hello again, and thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

Nick, my school doesn't have any photography gear, as its not really a large school with any fine arts programs. But nonetheless, thanks for the suggestion.

Frank, am I correct in thinking I will need some sort of power pack along with any set up I choose, or is it possible to plug into a normal wall socket? Thanks for the link, I was reading through Strobist the other day in order to get a better feel for photography lighting.

Ralph, thanks for the wealth of information from your personal experience. This gave me a lot to think about, and generally good advice to work off of. I don't want to buy cheap import gear, so if I can't afford something decent at the moment, I'll put it off until I can. During this time I can keep an eye out on the used markets now that I have a little better feel for what I need. Perhaps I shouldn't been pushing for f64 to start with, but could work with something less, and learn some more about lighting.

I had a few more general questions. If I have a two light setup, can I assume the total output (w/s) is equal to thier combined power? strobe(a)+strobe(b)=total output?
So, if this is true, could I buy 2-3 lights to equal, say the power of the X-3200, and get the same effect?

I'm thinking I'll either end up going with a few lights from Alien Bees, or some other quality used brands.

Thanks again for all your input.

Regards,
Martin

[Oren Grad]

Frank, am I correct in thinking I will need some sort of power pack along with any set up I choose, or is it possible to plug into a normal wall socket?

Monolights have built-in power supplies and plug directly into the wall. With pack-and-head kits, you plug the pack into the wall and the head(s) into the pack.


Perhaps I shouldn't been pushing for f64 to start with, but could work with something less, and learn some more about lighting.

It takes a lot of power to get to f/64 with light modifiers involved. You are unlikely to need it for 4x5.


I had a few more general questions. If I have a two light setup, can I assume the total output (w/s) is equal to thier combined power? strobe(a)+strobe(b)=total output? So, if this is true, could I buy 2-3 lights to equal, say the power of the X-3200, and get the same effect?

Three points here.

First, watt-seconds is not a useful measure of output. In fact, flashes with a given w/s rating are wildly variable in the actual light output they deliver. Yes, this makes it much harder to shop, because measures of actual light output are not standardized.

Second, the White Lightning X3200 in particular is a cheap way of getting its rated output - putting together two X1600s, for example, would be much more expensive than getting the same power in a single X3200. You're paying for two power supplies, two cases, etc. But you may want two X1600s for other reasons - having two sources instead of one gives you more flexibility in controlling the character of the light.

Third, though, is a further complication to just using many smaller units: you need to know how much current draw you can sustain in your "studio", whether it's your apartment, dorm, living room or whatever. Many houses have 15 amp circuits; pile up multiple monolights or packs and you can easily blow way beyond that. One of the extras you get when you pay big bucks for high-end packs is the option of a slow-charge mode that minimizes the current draw. IIRC, the Alien Bees and White Lightning monolights are rated to draw 8 amps each. You should check this specification for any unit you're considering.

[Nick_3536]

Nick, my school doesn't have any photography gear, as its not really a large school with any fine arts programs. But nonetheless, thanks for the suggestion.


I think some of the companies offer student discounts. Won't hurt to sniff around :D

[Ralph Barker]

In addition to what Oren said, the question of whether multiple strobes are additive is a question of placement and direction. The output is additive if they are clustered and lighting the same area, but that's usually not the reason behind having multiple lights. Usually, the reason for having multiple strobes is to light different elements of the subject (e.g. a "main", a "fill" light, and a hair light) and/or background. Three or four units, along with reflectors, are usually sufficient for portraiture, but more lights are often needed for more complex "commercial" shots.

My understanding is the Alien Bees are nice for "light duty" work and for on-location shooting with the battery pack that's available for them. By "light duty" I mean where there is a reasonable amount of time between exposures, and they are being used for a couple of hours, say. For "heavier" studio use (longer time/day, more rapid shooting) they might be subject to over-heating, and, thus, failure. The Alien Bees do take the same light-modifier hardware as the larger White Lightnings, but I'm not sure I'd hang a large or extra-large softbox off an Alien Bee.

[steve simmons]

Under the heading Cameras and Camera Accessories there is a thread called Strobe or Continuous Lghting. Read it. Much of this is just a repeat.

Several times in the last few years View Camera has done how-to articles on portrait and figure photography with lighting diagrams.

steve simmons
www.viewcamera.com

[JBrunner]

I have been using Alien Bees for about five years. I was a little skeptical when I purchased my first, but have come to repect them as having a great "bang" for the buck. The units themselves are light and tough. The accessories (umbrellas, soft boxes etc) are a little cheesy, but completely servicable for studio use. I dont think they would survive well in day in and day out location work. But as I said, the heads themselves are robust. The recycle time is decent, and not really a factor for LF anyway, but even constant recycling with DSLR work, I have never had a problem with overheat. I do not hesitate to recommend them as a cost effective entry level strobe system.

For focus with LF, I find I can easily compose wide open with the model lights, but focus is difficult. After I compose and stop down, I use a length string tied from the camera thats length ends equal to pre focused point. Much easier than focusing constantly, and I can just pull up the string, moments before I trip the shutter, to check that the model hasn't moved, and if they have, they quickly learn to move to the plane at the end of the string. Sounds silly, but it is fast, effecient, and I havent had a blown shot over focus since I started using it.

The information, and art and craft contained in View Camera are great, and if you don't subscribe, I would recommend it, as I would to any aspiring LFr. Steve also has a very good book published on the basics of using the view camera.

[Martin]

Nick, thanks again for the suggestion. I found out Alien Bees does offer a 10% student discount, which is fairly good in my opinion.

I think it would be best for me to hold off for at least a few months on purchasing any lighting. This will give me more time to think it over, and also scout for deals.

JBrunner, thanks for the info and suggestions. I do have a copy of "Master lighting guide: for portrait photographers", and I've been reading through it again. Although, it doesn't give specific info on what equipment is good for LF. The idea about the string was actually exactly what I was thinking. I thought of hanging a string with a small ball on the end from some movable support on the ceiling.

Also, thanks to everyone else for their input.

Regards,
Martin