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CP Goerz
2-Dec-2006, 13:34
I've finally got a chrome worth printing but can't find any of my beloved Ilfochrome and gather its been discontinued. Does the same apply to the Fuji type R material too? Their website says its available but photo suppliers in LA tell me otherwise. I would love to pop out a few 16x20s but think I may have to have my chrome scanned and printed but...am......resisting.....the .....pull...of....the.....easy way out!;-)

Janko Belaj
2-Dec-2006, 13:50
try this http://www.unicircuits.com/shop/index.php and "If you would like to see other products featured or have other questions or suggestions, please contact us using the contact page."
hope it helps

Ralph Barker
2-Dec-2006, 13:51
Although the Ilfochrome product line has been curtailed a bit, it has not been discontinued. Previous Ilfochrome retailers, however, may have been caught in the supply drought that existed a year or two ago when Ilford was in receivership, and haven't re-ordered. The Ilfochrome and inkjet paper lines were purchased by Oji Paper of Japan, but are still marketed under the Ilford brand in accordance with the purchase terms. Oji, however, hasn't been particularly aggressive with their marketing.

Calumet appears to carry Ilfochrome papers, even if on special order. It's also possible that some former dealers don't want to commit to the new, post-receivership purchase minimums, and use the discontinued myth as an excuse.

naturephoto1
2-Dec-2006, 14:02
B&H Photo and Adorama both list/stock Ilfochrome paper. I could not find chemistry for the paper from Adorama. B&H has at least some/most? of the chemistry in stock. Some may be out of stock however.

Rich

Lazybones
2-Dec-2006, 14:39
am......resisting.....the .....pull...of....the.....easy way out!;-)

And it should be difficult? Let's face it: we're not illuminating the Book of Kells here, dudes. ;) ;) ;) ;)

CP Goerz
2-Dec-2006, 18:29
Its easier to go to a lab and have them do it, sure. I just like printing and wouldn't mind enlarging the chrome myself as there are some tiny wee corrections I'd like to make in cropping and in the colour of the image. I tried B&H online but it seems the bleach can't be shipped and only picked up. I make my own developer and the fix is the same as any standard B+W fixer so don't need to pay $$$ for that. Thanks for the help guys!!


Keep a look out for my upcoming book...'The Kells Revisited-This Time they Mean Business!' ;-)

william linne
2-Dec-2006, 18:37
Dude, aren't you in LA? Calumet in LA can order any of that stuff for you and you can pick it up. Nobody and I mean nobody will ship cos of the hazmat fees associated with it now. B&H refused to ship Rodinal to me cos they said it was caustic. Pretty funny, one of their salespeople referring to something else as "caustic."

W.


Its easier to go to a lab and have them do it, sure. I just like printing and wouldn't mind enlarging the chrome myself as there are some tiny wee corrections I'd like to make in cropping and in the colour of the image. I tried B&H online but it seems the bleach can't be shipped and only picked up. I make my own developer and the fix is the same as any standard B+W fixer so don't need to pay $$$ for that. Thanks for the help guys!!


Keep a look out for my upcoming book...'The Kells Revisited-This Time they Mean Business!' ;-)

roteague
2-Dec-2006, 19:02
I've finally got a chrome worth printing but can't find any of my beloved Ilfochrome and gather its been discontinued. Does the same apply to the Fuji type R material too? Their website says its available but photo suppliers in LA tell me otherwise. I would love to pop out a few 16x20s but think I may have to have my chrome scanned and printed but...am......resisting.....the .....pull...of....the.....easy way out!;-)

Bob Carnie, over at the Elevator Gallery in Toronto, can print this on Ilfochrome using his Lambda printer.

http://www.elevatordigital.ca/index.htm

CP Goerz
3-Dec-2006, 00:42
I called Calumet earlier today and besides having to tell the salesperson exactly what the paper was used for was told that 'We don't stock it anymore, its been discontinued'.

Yeah, you would think that in a 'photo' town like this there would be a bunch of places that would have it but no, there really isn't. How Ilford plans to stay in the biz when one of the biggest outlets for photo gear says you are discontinued tells me the sales folk aren't too motivated. B&H(Beards and Hats) aren't the only ones that don't ship Ilfochrome chemistry, you can go anywhere and buy some paper but try the chemistry for fun, you only really need the bleach the rest is plain old B+W stuff as I'm sure you know.



Time is somewhat limited as I have to have four 16x20's by next week so can't wait so have gone to the scan and print method but will still need more prints for later so will get the Jobo dusted off and warmed up ;-)

tim atherton
3-Dec-2006, 10:24
Yeah, you would think that in a 'photo' town like this there would be a bunch of places that would have it but no, there really isn't. How Ilford plans to stay in the biz when one of the biggest outlets for photo gear says you are discontinued tells me the sales folk aren't too motivated.

I don't think Ilford (as in Ilford/Harman Technologies Black and White films and products) has anything to do with Ilfochrome anymore, nor does it comes through the same distribution lines as HP5, DD-X etc

roteague
3-Dec-2006, 12:41
I don't think Ilford (as in Ilford/Harman Technologies Black and White films and products) has anything to do with Ilfochrome anymore, nor does it comes through the same distribution lines as HP5, DD-X etc


That is correct, Ilford/Harmon doesn't produce Ilfochrome. It is some Japanese paper company - I don't remember the name off hand.

Jeffrey Sipress
3-Dec-2006, 13:41
Scanning and digitally printing to get Ilfochrome type results is not the easy way out. It takes as much time and experience to acheive great results that way as any other.

CP Goerz
3-Dec-2006, 19:02
I ended up taking the chrome to a Lab in LA to do the dirty work, I'll peruse a few web pages and see about getting some Ilfochrome/ciba/Oji paper and chemicals to get the ball rolling. Thanks to all for your help!\

bob carnie
4-Dec-2006, 06:17
I have a cibachrome processor and still print optically*if the chromes are in good shape* and on my Lambda.
There is a problem of supply right now.
My understanding is that Ilford US is being disbanded and the distribution of cibachrome is still in the air.
As suggested Ilford/Harmon UK
do not control the ciba product line. They are using Winnit as a distributor for all the Harmon / Ilford UK line of products. I have been using Winnit for a few months as a distributer and they are very professional. It would be up to your Local retailer to set up an account with Winnit to get a proper flow of Black and White product.
Ilford Switzerland and Ilflord US is another story. We are having a difficult time securing product ,but we have been assured that the supply line will be opened up once a North American distributer has been appointed.
Elevator has pissed off quite a few of our loyal clients in this transfer of power, in fact I have 5 jobs from Aug 06 still unfullfilled because of the supply problems. Hance Partners in AZ were wise in ordering enough product and can fufill any printing needs on Cibachrome product.
It gets even more complicated as Ilford Switzerland has given Sunrise the distribution rights for Omijet and ra4 colour paper rights in NA.
I have dealt with them and they are very professional with our requests.

So if a third distributor gets the ciba chrome line then we must deal with various vendors to get the Ilford line of products. It is confusing but I think it will sort itself out in 2007.
Until it does and I can get more Cibachrome chemistry and paper Elevator is not producing Cibachromes for our clients. Even so we will have to only run in dedicated time slots and not do cibas on a daily basis , this is unfortunate but financially practical for us.

CP Goerz
19-Dec-2006, 23:01
Well the chrome I took in to the lab was scanned and printed out...it was really underwhelming, not even close to the original so I think the project will be scrapped till I can get something figured out with my own printing rig. Damn! I REALLY miss my Ilfochrome!!!!!!


The writing seems to be on the wall with such stories of spotty distributors and thats just the paper...what about the bleach kit?! Seems to be one step away from radoiactive waste apparently. Ahh well, does anyone print on something other than Ilfochrome that looks a bit like Ilfochrome...and is somewhat available? I'll send a print to the writer of the best answer :-)

Hope you all have a great holiday season!!!

naturephoto1
20-Dec-2006, 07:01
When we print from my transparencies, we scan the image and I receive a proof in the mail that I review with Bill Nordstrom. Bill, who now goes by the name of Laser Light Photographics (Aptos, CA), and was the founder of EverColor Fine Art has been my printer for the last 12 years. We generally get very close to and/or actually improve the final image from the original transparency. However, in order to do this the transparencies must be perfectly or almost perfectly exposed. We work on dodging and burning and also contrast adjustment.

Though I have not seen the latest of the Fuji Crystal Archive in the Supergloss finish, I used to have EverColor make my digital output printed on this paper. This is a beautiful high gloss mirror finish polyester based color photo paper. It is the closest that I have seen of any paper to aproach the appearance of high gloss Ilfochrome. I can not say if the Supergloss Crystal Archive has quite the metallic appearance of Ilfochrome, but it is close.

Bill prints my transparencies on the Fuji Glossy Crystal Archive photo paper. But, we always have the option of printing on the Crystal Archive Supergloss paper which is about 25% more expensive for the finished prints.

Other labs also have the ability to print on the Fuji Crystal Archive Supergloss paper. But, I only have experience printing with Bill with whom I am very happy.

Rich

roteague
20-Dec-2006, 10:41
Well the chrome I took in to the lab was scanned and printed out...it was really underwhelming, not even close to the original so I think the project will be scrapped till I can get something figured out with my own printing rig. Damn! I REALLY miss my Ilfochrome!!!!!!

Who did you have do the work? A lot of local labs who don't specialize in this type of thing won't give you good results. When you scan a transparency, it comes out really flat, so you need someone who excels in Photoshop to bring out what is there. Rich's recommendation is a good place to start, or use West Coast Imaging (where I have all my work done).

Eric Leppanen
20-Dec-2006, 11:06
I've only had a few Ilfochromes/Cibachromes done of my work over the years, so I am hardly an expert, but I agree with Rich that the closest digital output I have seen to Ilfochrome is Lightjet/Chromira printed on Fuji Super Gloss paper. I get virtually all of my color work (mostly 8x10 chromes) printed on this paper (in my case by West Coast Imaging on their Chromira printer), and the result is a very dramatic, high gloss print with excellent dmax. To my eye, Super Gloss has slightly more of a high gloss plastic rather than metallic look to it, but it still provides vivid highlights, especially when the print is mounted and illuminated properly. I have yet to see another digital output technology (laser, LED or ink-jet) match it in dramatic appearance.

roteague
20-Dec-2006, 11:22
I've only had a few Ilfochromes/Cibachromes done of my work over the years, so I am hardly an expert, but I agree with Rich that the closest digital output I have seen to Ilfochrome is Lightjet/Chromira printed on Fuji Super Gloss paper. I get virtually all of my color work (mostly 8x10 chromes) printed on this paper (in my case by West Coast Imaging on their Chromira printer), and the result is a very dramatic, high gloss print with excellent dmax. To my eye, Super Gloss has slightly more of a high gloss plastic rather than metallic look to it, but it still provides vivid highlights, especially when the print is mounted and illuminated properly. I have yet to see another digital output technology (laser, LED or ink-jet) match it in dramatic appearance.


WCI does excellent work!!! I can tell you that the results that Bob Carnie does on his Lambda/Ilfochrome can't be beat however. I have one image that was printed on both Fuji Crystal Archive and Ilfochrome (by Bob Carnie) from the same scan, and the Ilfochrome just blows away the FCA version. Hopefully, he will be able to start doing Ilfochromes again.

bob carnie
20-Dec-2006, 12:24
Thanks for the kind words.
We are still waiting for Iford Switzerland to get their shit together, I have pissed off too many clients with the lambda cibas because of spotty supplys.
I believe the decision who gets the NA distribution is close to being solved.
When this is done we will order and start running with it again.
I do print both Fuji Crystal Archive Flex and as well the Ciba line.
I think the difference is simple. Without light the Ciba dies with light you can see more depth with the ciba chrome. If the images are not to be viewed with lights I would then prefer the FCAFlex product.
The ciba does have a different colour gamut than the Flex but I do like both products.
The ciba does feel heavier in weight and has very good dark storage capabilities for critical work that needs to last.


WCI does excellent work!!! I can tell you that the results that Bob Carnie does on his Lambda/Ilfochrome can't be beat however. I have one image that was printed on both Fuji Crystal Archive and Ilfochrome (by Bob Carnie) from the same scan, and the Ilfochrome just blows away the FCA version. Hopefully, he will be able to start doing Ilfochromes again.

Sal Santamaura
20-Dec-2006, 14:12
...The ciba...has very good dark storage capabilities for critical work that needs to last.Aesthetic questions aside, I've always wondered why good dark storage capabilities, when combined with mediocre display life*, is considered much of a benefit for Cibachrome/Ilfochrome. Why bother with a print if the aim is to only peek once in a while? Viewing the original transparency on a light box would be more satisfying anyway.

Except for snapshots, the only color hanging in my home is a 20x24 pigment-based Evercolor that Bill Nordstrom printed twelve years ago. The photographer was making dye transfers at that time, and it required twisting his arm to have him try this new process. He was most pleased with the results, and went on to have other images Evercolor printed as well.

I don't know why Bill discontinued Evercolor; he ended it long before Agfa (which sourced the pigment sheets) folded. For a while the other pigment sheet producer -- UltraStable -- supplied materials and there was at least one lab (Ataraxia Studios) that would make prints using them.

I suspect that the cost of separations, pigment sheets and labor, along with an alleged lack of repeatability, has all but killed the process. Currently Ataraxia is a sales outlet for certain photographers, apparently making pigment prints and marketing them. Ultrastable seems offer the public only pigment-based fluids for inkjet printers.

*See Table 3.2 here: http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/HW_Book_758_Pages_HiRes_v1a.pdf

naturephoto1
20-Dec-2006, 14:37
Hi Sal,

What happened with EverColor is the following (and Bill has been my printer for 12 years):

Bill closed down operations in California giving the option of some of his staff to go with him. He moved the equipment and combined this and another lab in Worchester, Massachusettes. Bill had been founder of EverColor and President. Bill and Mark Doyle did most of the digital darkroom work. EverColor had problems where they were unable to get the pigment processed prints to consistantly be printed and run through the machines properly consistanly. They had also applied the same 4 color printing method to the Fuji dye photo paper generation prior to Crystal Archive.

In this time period, Bill was no longer really running EverColor, he was basically 2nd Banana. Bill made arrangements for the original LightJet that EverColor got and the 4 color printing method for dye printing was discontinued. Eventually, after so many attempts at solving the problems with the pigment process EverColor kept raising the pricing.

Bill decided to leave EverColor and set up Laser Light Photographics in Shrewsbury, MA and continued to use the EverColor LightJet printer. I was Bill's 7th customer under the new banner. My customer number with time became 007 (we have a going joke that I have a license to shoot). Eventually, EverColor gave up on the pigment process entirely because they were unable to get all of the problems with the process solved.

EverColor finally went bankrupt and after losing $5,000,000 in 5 years and the investors pulled the plug.

Bill moved his business back to California in Aptos while Mark Doyle (who Bill invited to join him in California) decided to stay and set up Autumn Color in the same location that EverColor had been in Worchester, MA. I believe, as things were disolved, Mark gave us the opportunity to buy all of the pigment separations or they would be destroyed. With no way of preparing these images most if not all of the separations were destroyed.

Within the last year or so Bill has moved the Lab and the Chromira machine that he had set up in his Garage into a much larger facility.

Rich

CP Goerz
20-Dec-2006, 19:45
Yeah, a sorry tale. I tried calling Fuji today aboaut their reversal paper and the guy who answered didn't know if the company ever made it...sigh. I did look into West Coast but still feel like I am giving something up by not printing the chrome myself. I never found any lab to do a better job than I did myself...not that I'm a great printer but perhaps I had more time to get it right.



With chromes its so easy to see how far off you are unlike negatives etc so I was more than a bit annoyed when I went to the local lab here and saw that they were off by at least 60CCs of red and 20CCs of yellow, no small amounts! Anything red in the image went to a dull brown, the greens were almost blue. Ahh well, the search continues!!!

roteague
20-Dec-2006, 20:32
Yeah, a sorry tale. I tried calling Fuji today aboaut their reversal paper and the guy who answered didn't know if the company ever made it...sigh. I did look into West Coast but still feel like I am giving something up by not printing the chrome myself. I never found any lab to do a better job than I did myself...not that I'm a great printer but perhaps I had more time to get it right.



With chromes its so easy to see how far off you are unlike negatives etc so I was more than a bit annoyed when I went to the local lab here and saw that they were off by at least 60CCs of red and 20CCs of yellow, no small amounts! Anything red in the image went to a dull brown, the greens were almost blue. Ahh well, the search continues!!!

Sorry to hear that. I don't know of anyone who makes a type 'R' paper anymore. Ilfochrome is the only reversal process that I know of, and the materials, chemicals, etc, can be difficult to come by - not even mentioning that it can be a difficult material to print with.

WCI is a great lab, but there is also Calypso in Santa Cruz (who does all my developing work), as well as Laser Light Photographics (I know Rich and trust his recommendations). I wouldn't worry about any of them, they all have some of the best photographers in the business using their services. Of course, you do lose the hands on aspect; although with WCI you can get a work print to look at and approve before the final print is made. This route works for me, simply because I find printing color to be real drudge work at best.

CP Goerz
20-Dec-2006, 22:46
Once I read the article in the mag Darkroom and Creative Camera Techniques on Ilfochrome I knew I had finally got my hands around the neck of all my printing problems. The article described how the process is really a B+W process with the bleaching stage in the middle. Since I knew I could soften the developers contrast down and make cheaper fixer myself there was a payoff everywhere.The Beers developer (which is a variable type) not only controlled the contrast ,which could be outrageous as anyone who printed it knows, but it also had the effect of raising the paper speed AND the massive colour swings from just a few CCs were GONE! I think Ilford made the developer way too contrasty and that made printing very difficult therefore reducing the number of folk who would continue with it.


I usually let the bleach run a little longer to get cleaner whites and longer fixing times to get the job done a little more completely. If we are at the end of the Ilfochrome road I for one will be very very sad, a glossy print from that stuff just knocked your socks off.

Wayne
30-Dec-2006, 17:05
Once I read the article in the mag Darkroom and Creative Camera Techniques on Ilfochrome I knew I had finally got my hands around the neck of all my printing problems. The article described how the process is really a B+W process with the bleaching stage in the middle. Since I knew I could soften the developers contrast down and make cheaper fixer myself there was a payoff everywhere.The Beers developer (which is a variable type) not only controlled the contrast ,which could be outrageous as anyone who printed it knows, but it also had the effect of raising the paper speed AND the massive colour swings from just a few CCs were GONE! I think Ilford made the developer way too contrasty and that made printing very difficult therefore reducing the number of folk who would continue with it.


I usually let the bleach run a little longer to get cleaner whites and longer fixing times to get the job done a little more completely. If we are at the end of the Ilfochrome road I for one will be very very sad, a glossy print from that stuff just knocked your socks off.


If you havent printed cibas in a while you are going to be disappointed even if you find a supply, because control over contrast via the developer is no longer what it used to be. In other words it doesnt work.


Wayne

roteague
30-Dec-2006, 17:12
If you havent printed cibas in a while you are going to be disappointed even if you find a supply, because control over contrast via the developer is no longer what it used to be. In other words it doesnt work.


Wayne

Many of the top Cibachrome printers, like Christopher Burkett, use contast masks to get around the problem. But, that isn't easy, and is time consuming.

Wayne
30-Dec-2006, 22:19
Well yes, you can certainly still control contrast that way. But if he's hoping to control by development like in the old days he can save himself the trouble.


Wayne

jonsmith
31-Dec-2006, 06:57
I found this link with a web search:

http://www.rainierphoto.com/workshop5.htm

They say they carry the new kit and paper, too, and none of the BS about hazmat. Ground shipping only though.

I shoot Ilfochrome with an 85B filter in my 8x10 camera (only sunset hours give decent color) and am glad to find a possible supplier. I used to get it from Calumet in LA.

Here's a sample:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b225/sobenk/js0063.jpg

Wayne
31-Dec-2006, 07:47
Its been 3-4 years since I ordered Ilforchrome chemicals, but B&H was the only one that wouldnt ship it. But B&H wont ship the majority of chemicals though, so dont go by them.
They became anal retentive about all chemicals 5-6 years ago, but none of my other suppliers followed suit.


Wayne

Ed K.
1-Jan-2007, 14:44
Hey C.P. - Happy New Year!

I haven't tried getting any Ilfochromes printed recently, although I'm thinking of it. Weldon Color, in Los Angeles on Exposition, still seems to offer prints. If John is still printing, his print will not disappoint. They are highly regarded for their masking techniques and high quality mounting (no orange peel) of huge fine art prints.

If he is still at it, perhaps he might sell some supplies to you or help you get them somehow?

It would be sad to learn that he is no longer printing, as I have been working hard to make some chromes worthy of his prints.

Carsten Wolff
18-Feb-2007, 02:44
I can't believe how scarce and "unloved" Ilfochrome seems to have become :)....
Our best professional lab (Chromacolour, south Australia) still uses nothing else.

Aaron van de Sande
18-Feb-2007, 17:48
I am probably going to ruffle a lot of feathers saying this, but the longevity of inkjet color prints is going to be (if it isn't already) much greater than anything done with a optical process.

roteague
18-Feb-2007, 18:10
I am probably going to ruffle a lot of feathers saying this, but the longevity of inkjet color prints is going to be (if it isn't already) much greater than anything done with a optical process.

Don't know and don't care. Longevity isn't the primary reason I choose the process I do - it is just one factor of several.

naturephoto1
18-Feb-2007, 18:15
Aaron,

The inkjet prints normally do not have the clarity, crispness, continuous tone, etc. of the output from a Chromira, LightJet, Lambda, or conventionally printed transparency. As Robert, indicates longevity is an aspect of consideration, but not the only or probably even the most important aspect of the finished image.

Rich

Renato Tonelli
21-Jan-2010, 08:36
Wow! a thread from 2006!

Ilfochrome materials are available from Freestyle as a special order; the chemistry/paper is drop-shipped from the distributor.

I don't bother with some of the other vendors anymore - if they don't know what it is or don't carry it anymore, they say it's no longer available.

Drew Wiley
21-Jan-2010, 10:19
Renato - even at Freestyle you have to ask around a bit, and make sure you're using
the correct product numbers. I have no problem getting Ciba supplies ordered thru a
local store up here. Just allow a little lead time. B&H still handles the paper, but has
restrictions on the chem. There are still enough Ciba printers in this country to keep
the product imported. Nothing digital comes close visually, although there seems to be
a handful of digital printers who can make Fuji Supergloss do remarkably well, and I've done Fuji Supergloss optically - look very good indeed UNTIL you put them side by side
with a Ciba!

Renato Tonelli
21-Jan-2010, 12:22
Drew - Just out of curiosity: wasn't the original Ciba chemistry available in powder packets you had to mix? I don't remember and can't seem to find my original Ciba printing manual.
I've tried the Fuji material also and as beautiful as it is, I agree with you: it doesn't compare side by side.

Drew Wiley
21-Jan-2010, 12:40
Renato - way back when, Ciba offered an amateur kit in which the bleach used a powder form of sulfamic acid. All I personally use is the P-3 professional kits. The
unmixed individual liquid components store quite well, and I simply mix per print or per session. Much more economical that way too.

Renato Tonelli
21-Jan-2010, 14:34
Drew - thanks for jogging my memory. I am planning to use the individual P-3 chemicals as well for my next Ilfochrome run.

Nathan Potter
21-Jan-2010, 16:31
Renato, my first Cibas were done with all powder packets - you've jogged my memory - maybe 1970 to 1975 or so. I also use the P-3 kits which I store cold (wine cellar). As both paper and chemistry age, I adjust the CC filters to compensate by using a matrix of CYM from 0 to 50 til I get a neutral grey. Then I tweak from there based on the individual chromes. Yes, I use old fashion plastic CC filters at 6 X6 inch size with a modified lamp house and halogen source. For 35 mm and up to 4X5 format.

The Ilfochromes still have an edge in definition and color saturation for me. They seem to jump out more.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.