Conundrum: should I wait for the Layton ? [Archive]

Scott Knowles

30-Nov-2006, 08:05

I've been waiting for the Layton L-45A to be produced, and for the last 6 months or so I've heard it's almost there (not counting the time while it's in development and production). Since I still have my deposit there for one and don't plan to change that decision, I have everything else to start learning and working in large format photography. The conundrum is that I only have the money for the one set aside. So the question is that is there another field camera that will do almost as much without breaking the bank, meaning a Linhof?

I understand the logic to buy a "beginner's" 4x5 (<$1,000), and I know many still use theirs for many years, it wasn't my interest to go that route just to get started and discover its limitations. I'm not criticizing that route, it's just not my interest, which was to buy one camera to do 95+% of my needs. The irony is that researching other field cameras I end up spending almost as much for only most of the same features and capabilities, such as Toyo, etc. So, am I missing anything to look at?

Otherwise I'll sit and wait for the note of where to send the check for the really big box from John Layton. Thanks and have a good holiday season.

Jack Flesher

30-Nov-2006, 09:28

So let me get this straight... You have all the gear you need to shoot except a camera???

My first question is, do you want to shoot or wait? Second question is, what if your wait for the Layton never materializes into a camera?

In the end, learning to shoot LF is an iterative process; it takes time spent behind the camera -- any camera -- learning what the movements do, when and how to implement them, and then making the inevitable mistakes enough times that you learn how not to make them. Had you been shooting with any LF camera for all the time you've spent waiting for your Layton, you'd probably have pushed your way through most of the initial learning hurdles and already have a few keeper images for your LF portfolio...

I'll also go on record saying this: There is no such thing as the ultimate, do-it-all view camera -- it simply doesn't exist.

I'll add that I have seen and played with one of the Layton prototypes. Yes, it is a nice camera with some nice design features, but no way it is anything even approaching the holy grail of all view cameras. IMO you can do as well or even better with an Ebony, Arca, Linhof or Toyo. No way I personally would give up my Arca for a Layton, and most likely would not even bother opting for one if I owned an Ebony...

My advice is to get a camera, any camera, and just start shooting...

Don Hutton

30-Nov-2006, 09:49

John Kasaian

30-Nov-2006, 09:57

IMHO, Jack Flesher is spot on. Find a low priced Crown Graphic or Calumet metal mono and start the learning process, that way, when your Layton does arrive you'll be able to get down to business (having already 'cycled through' many of the challenges) plus you'll have some very good, maybe even great LF images to get your creative motor purring. Besides, it'll be a lot more fun than waiting for a box to arrive.

Ole Tjugen

30-Nov-2006, 09:58

I'll also go on record saying this: There is no such thing as the ultimate, do-it-all view camera -- it simply doesn't exist.

There is, but it's impossible to get hold of. Or at least it takes a long, long time and quite a lot of luck.

In the meantime, just about any LF camera will do. If I didn't already have the ultimate, I would have bought an Argentum Explorator I (http://www.argentumcamera.com/_angol/html_pages/explorator_I.html). As it is, I'm thinking hard about an 8x10" Argentum xl...

Colin Robertson

30-Nov-2006, 10:34

Really, get a camera and shoot. When the Layton shows up, sell the other. Even if you lose a few bucks you gain plenty of other things to make up for it. I always thought I was quite savvy in the darkroom, but goin LF was humbling. First comes film handling- loading holders and processing film without scrathing it. Then getting EI and dev times to suit my new diffusion enlarger. For the first few weeks I produced crap. I only got on top of things by putting away my MF gear and shooting only LF for a while. Meditation and reading don't make you skilled, only shooting does.

Ron Marshall

30-Nov-2006, 11:20

I agonized over the purchase of my first camera, but after shooting for a month I laughed at my angst. Every camera design entails a functional compromise of some sort.

It is so easy to buy and sell used LF equipment that one can sample a few cameras over their shooting career, and trade with little or no loss.

You may get the Layton and find you don't like it. Try something in the interum. The main thing is to get shooting and get a feel for it.

Jack Flesher

30-Nov-2006, 11:53

Yes, our needs and first impressions do change once we actually use the gear... I remember the first 4x5 I bought. I agonized over specs too -- bellows draw, movements and lensboard size, and finally ended up with a Linhof Technikardan. Great camera, but now several years and a dozen different cameras later, it is probably one of the last cameras I would choose. I've owned, used and loved the cheapest wooden folders through the most expensive machined technoperfection monorails and made great (and crappy) images with all of them. Bottom line for me now is the camera itself simply doesn't matter that much -- it just needs to be light-tight, adjust smoothly and lock-down reliably.

Brian Ellis

30-Nov-2006, 16:22

I'm with Jack. I spent months reading everything I could about LF cameras, pored over spec sheets, read reviews, posted questions, and finally ended up with a Technikardan. I owned it for about six months and sold it. I've owned four 4x5s since then (12 years ago) and have stayed with my last one (a Master Technika) for about 4years with no plans to change.

It's just very very hard to buy a LF camera based on reading about them, especially without ever having used one before. The only critical things IMHO for general purpose photography are front tilt, swing and rise and back tilt and swing. The other movements are either unnecessary for general purpose photography or can be duplicated with the basic movements. Then the camera must have a bellows long enough to use your longest lens. That's about it. Assuming everything functions properly it becomes a matter of how the camera handles, how it feels, how convenient it is to use, what little things bother you, what things do you really like, all the sort of stuff you don't get from reading about cameras.

So I think it's a mistake to do nothing until Layton gets a camera to you. Buy something now. Whatever you buy can probably be sold for about what you paid for it if and when the Layton arrives and in the meantime you'll be making photographs and learning.

Gordon Moat

30-Nov-2006, 17:19

I think he should get a wood field camera within his price range. That way when he gets the Layton metal field camera, he might find a noticeable difference in rigidity.

A quick glance at the Layton (http://www.laytoncamera.com/gallery.html) website indicates a sturdy and clean looking design. It would seem to be a nice choice for those who can afford one. I cannot imagine too many being made.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

Bill_1856

30-Nov-2006, 17:30

This is the first time that I've heard of the Layton. Just checked the link, and it appears to me that this $4000, 7+ pound camera suffers all the drawbacks of both a field camera and a monorail camera, without offering any particular advantage over either. And any time that someone offers a "lifetime warranty" for a product not even on the market it makes me think of Zone VI and Gitzo. Actually, it makes me think of P.T. Barnum.

naturephoto1

30-Nov-2006, 21:11

Hi Scott,

I agree with the others. You may just be sitting indefinitely til the Layton is (or ever is) released. As others have pointed out, it is a heavy camera and quite expensive as well.

Like the others I have used and still use a Linhof Technikardan 45S. Prior to this, I had a Linhof Super Technika IV that was stolen. Unlike the others, I like my Technikardan very much. It too is somewhat heavy. But, I have become comfortable with its operation and idiosyncracies for opening and closing the camera. What most complain about the Technikardan is opening and closing. But once you learn how it is not that difficult. But for me for long hikes and backpacking, this is a heavy camera. Like others including Kerry Thalmann, I will probably also purchase the Toho FC 45X for my long distance and backpacking camera.

In any case, find a camera to use in the mean time. If you decide you still want/need the Layton, get the camera when it is released. Decide for yourself if you want to keep the deposit on the Layton.

Good Luck and make a decision. You will learn how to use the LF camera and if you do get the Layton, apply your knowledge and experience to that camera.

Rich

Frank Petronio

30-Nov-2006, 21:25

One more vote just to get any brand name, $500 to $1500 camera and get to work. You probably can resell any Toyo, Sinar, Ebony, Wista, Linhof, Horseman, etc. for what you paid for it. You may switch cameras several times. Even John Layton has used different cameras!

lithophotos

1-Dec-2006, 07:13

As many people have said, LF is an iterative process. However I would seriously recommend the Walker Titan SF 4x5

www.walkercamers.com

I have this camera and a Linhof Tech 2000. It is capable of doing all that the Linhof can and that you require. In addition it has an easy fit bag bellows and is made of ABS plastic with a good stylish (non kitch) finish which is virtually indestructible. The cost is very reasonable. The only downside (if it is one) is that it doesn't look like it has been 'engineered by gnomes'. Take a serious look at this, I think it will repay the investment in time.

Robin Coutts

Scott Davis

1-Dec-2006, 07:55

Look at a Canham wood field! Less than half what you're spending on the Layton, weighs less, will be just as rigid, and you can get one right away. I have a Canham 5x7 which I bought pre-owned, and when I had a problem with it, I was still able to get warranty service on it even though I was not the original owner. THAT's a good deal. My Canham 5x7 weighs less than my Shen Hao 4x5, looks just as cool, and offers me tons of movement. There are Canham cameras available on the used market - call up Jim at Midwest Photo and take one for a test drive.

evan clarke

1-Dec-2006, 07:59

Hi,
I have 6 Arcas and 3 Ebonies, some graphics, a Walker, a Fatif and some other odds and ends. I have seen the Layton in person a couple times. First choice, buy an Arca, it has the most functionality in the most accurate, compact package...no folding and unfolding. Second choice, buy the Walker, it is an amazing camera and I really like it, especially for the money he charges. It is rigid, accurate and well made, it just requires folding and unfolding.. I can have the photograph with my Arca by the time I have the Walker assembled. Third, an Ebony non-folder. I carry one of these for my 6x17mm panoramic back and like it a lot. I don't like my Ebony folder too well because of all the unfolding procedure..too fiddly. The non-folder is a very light, compact unit and can just drop on the tripod, ready to go. It's a hard decision when you can't see any of these in person. One good opportunity in the near future is the View Camera conference. John Layton was there with his camera last year. It is a very nicely made, ingenious camera, but all-in-all the Arca just wins. Contact Rod Klukas at Photomark in Phoenix, he is probably the best Arca source...Evan Clarke

Scott Knowles

1-Dec-2006, 08:55

Thanks for the responses. I'm looking at mid-range 4x5's to start until John gets the L-45A produced. I understand the idea to start with a basic camera, but initially it wasn't in the budget as long as the L-45A was on the horizon. But the horizon there seems distant(?). John isn't answering e-mail or updating his Website, and I don't know if life and other work are interferring or the production company or process.

I can understand the logic to buying low-end and upgrading, but I also learned from reading others' experience and my own with my 35mm system, a lot of cameras get sold, donated or sit on shelves, something I didn't want to do in 4x5, simply park or only occasionally use a perfectly good camera. But I now have to think again after getting the last stuff this summer to start and the L-45A wasn't coming as expected.

Amund BLix Aaeng

1-Dec-2006, 09:06

Scott, you`re in denial.
Get the $500 back, buy a Walker SF and start shooting NOW

Herb Cunningham

1-Dec-2006, 09:17

Might as well pile on. I have the Ebony 45su2 an Arca, a Canham, and use the Canham more that the others put together.

People that make their living, like Kirk Gittings, don't obsess about the camera. I dare say Edward Weston's gear was junk compared to what most amateurs use today. His work does sell for a tad more, however.

Most of us have been the magic bullet route. Get something bigger than a speed or crown, they have way too little bellows, but a used Tachi or such will work just fine and you can find out what you like from that.

Colin Graham

1-Dec-2006, 10:22

Scott, you`re in denial.
Get the $500 back, buy a Walker SF and start shooting NOW

Indeed. I would be worried about all the shots missed. Besides, what are limitations if not a shortcut to style?

David Karp

1-Dec-2006, 10:37

I have a Walker Titan SF. I love it. You might. You might not.

It sounds like you have no idea what you will like because you have not worked with a LF camera for any length of time. If you buy a used Cambo, Calumet, or Toyo monorail, you will probably be able to sell it for close to what you paid for it. You will probably pay less than your down payment on the Layton. Waiting for what you think is the perfect camera may be a huge mistake. You might end up hating it. There are people who love the Linhof Technika cameras. They are awesome pieces of equipment, beautifully engineered. I would never use one, because I don't like the way the back movements work. Others think I am crazy.

My recommendation: Get a cheap used monorail. That way you will have a camera with a full range of movements. Then use it for a while. See which movements you use, and which you don't. Figure out which lenses you actually use. For example, although my lens kit resembles my 35mm lens kit, I hardly use the lenses at the very wide angle end in LF, but use them frequently in 35mm. There is so much more variation between LF cameras than 35mm cameras. Figure all of this out before you spend a lot of money on a camera. It could save you a lot of wasted time, not to mention the money.

Plus, taking pictures with LF is a lot more fun than wondering when you will be able to start. Have fun.

scott_6029

1-Dec-2006, 11:23

Heck no, don't wait, isn't the whole purpose to make images? Pick up something used, inexpensive that you can sell later. Start photographing. For 4 x 5 there is no reason to wait with all the great alternatives....I have made some better images with an inexpensive tachihara (sold) vs. (to buy) an arca swiss.....

Scott Knowles

1-Dec-2006, 19:45

Boy, you folks are a tough audience. There are some excellent suggestions and I'll look into them, but for now I'd rather see when the Layton will be ready in the near future. Is that denial? No, just realistic and pragmatic, since I don't shoot much in the winter anyway (Reynauds Syndrome). I decided to buy only one camera and this one took over a year to research, decide and save, and since I only finished getting everything this summer, time is still on my side. Am I losing images? Not really, I have an excellent 35mm film-based system and looking at a digital system now too. Am I losing anything, like time learning? Yes, but nothing I can't catch up on when I start. I also have to fit my 4x5 work within my (retirement) budget around everything else in life, as we all must do. After all how much money do you spend on film each month for your 4x5 work along side your photography? We all make compromises in life for time, money, or whatever.

Have a good holiday. And please lighten up, the equipment is heavy enough.

Amund BLix Aaeng

2-Dec-2006, 04:32

Boy, you folks are a tough audience.

LOL, you got that right. :D

naturephoto1

2-Dec-2006, 05:13

LOL, you got that right. :D

True, so true. ;)

Rich

C. D. Keth

3-Dec-2006, 16:42

Get a Shen hao 4x5 and shoot some stuff. Then, if and when the Layton comes out you can sell the Shen Hao. They seem to keep their value very well lately, and are only 600 in the first place.

Rider

3-Dec-2006, 17:16

I did exactly what David Karp suggested: bought a used Toyo monorail for (compared to a new camera) pennies, learned a lot from it and now I have a better idea what I want from a camera. I would NOT get a Shen Hao to learn from because (1) it is too expensive even used), and (2) I think it's best to learn from a monorail, which you can get for one third the price of even the cheapest new field camera (i.e. Shen).

Michael Kadillak

3-Dec-2006, 17:44

No photograph ever found it necessary to divulge the pedigree of its source mechanics to share its message with the target audience. That is all that really matters if you are a photographer. A large format camera holds a lens and a film holder in a static position with a light tight bellows in the middle - it is no more complicated than that. Plus, there could be operational bugs that are not out of the ordinary with any new product that you may have to deal with. And last I checked, these cameras are not cheap. Nothing against the maker but he is entering a highly competitive marketplace at a very agressive price point. If I absolutely was affixed on a range finder 4x5 I would get a Linhof Master Technika that is a highly proven design that have been making photographs since the early 1900's.

Whenever someone tends to suffer angst over a camera I know for a fact that their priorities are not in the correct order. If you like to fondle supple leather or obscess over design and a brand name, have at it. One should list a set of basic specifications and get the best value that you can afford. There are a number of alternatives that others have listed that would serve you well NOW. Spend your money on optics, film and materials that you will need to use in relatively large quantities to get your craft down.

Hope it all works out well for you.

Cheers!

David Karp

3-Dec-2006, 18:48

Boy, you folks are a tough audience.

Often true, but not so much here. Most of us have been through what you have been through, so the voices of experience have some degree of force behind them. Most, if not all of us end up changing from our first camera. I suspect that this is as true of those of us who started with an expensive super camera as for those of us who started with an inexpensive used monorail. Even more, I think, than a 35mm or MF camera, large format cameras have their own personalities. These personalities match well with some photographers, and not with others. The problem is, a person does not yet know their personality as it relates to LF until he or she has done it for a while.

Think of buying a used monorail as a long term rental while waiting for your Layton to arrive. If you find the Layton is a perfect camera for you, you will be way ahead of the game with all of the practice (not to mention fun and photographs) you will have gotten in while waiting it to arrive.

Ole Tjugen

4-Dec-2006, 00:02

Most, if not all of us end up changing from our first camera. I suspect that this is as true of those of us who started with an expensive super camera as for those of us who started with an inexpensive used monorail.

Very true. I started with a 5x7" Technika with a 4x5" back, got a second 5x7" Technika with a 5x7" back, swapped the first one for a Linhof Color (inexpensive monorail), got a Gandolfi Traditional 5x7", sold the second Technika, bought a Carbon Infinity, sold the Linhof Color. And in the meantime had accumulated a range of old plate cameras from 6.5x9cm to 30x40cm, and an old pre-anniverary Speed Graphic.

I'm set now. For a while. At least I don't think it's possible to improve on the Carbon Infinity.

picsareus

6-Dec-2006, 17:43

I should first say that I don't own a LF camera either, but I have to give some input here since this decision process applies to almost anything whether it be a camera, a stereo system, a TV...etc. I've been through this thought process on other camera purchases and think its not too different here...

If you have to wait 3 weeks, then go ahead and wait. What's 3 weeks in the scheme of things?
If you have to wait 3 months or more, then you are better off buying something now even if you are not sure if you'll keep it or sell and upgrade. The reason I say this is the ultimate goal is to get pictures and in that 3 month (or longer) period you are for sure going to get some great pictures, and some good practice too. And getting the pictures should be the ultimate goal.

Worst case scenario is that you'll get a camera and after using it, you'll still want to upgrade and can sell it. Even in this worst case scenario you'll be better prepared to use the ultimate camera when you get it and be able to get great pictures with that right away versus having to go through a learning curve.

And I don't think this audience it being too rough. It sounds like people are giving some good rational advice!

riooso

6-Dec-2006, 21:43

Hey the wooden camera is a good idea! Most are light and would be a good backpacking companion. You simply must get the first image taken and processed, you are missing something very special! I have to tell you that the guys on this forum are on the spot on about almost everything. Of all the people that have answered your post there is easily a
total of 500 years of experience there. They know about what they speak! Whatever you decide have a good time, this is great stuff!

Richard Adams

walter23

7-Dec-2006, 19:28

I understand the logic to buy a "beginner's" 4x5 (<$1,000), and I know many still use theirs for many years, it wasn't my interest to go that route just to get started and discover its limitations. I'm not criticizing that route, it's just not my interest, which was to buy one camera to do 95+% of my needs.

I think you're carrying over some of the bad ideas perpetuated by digital camera marketing. The only limitations you will find on some field cameras are the shorter bellows draw and lack of movements (but some like the remarkably inexpensive Shen Hao and probably ebony have pretty much all the moves of a monorail, front and rear), but those are fairly standard features you lose when you decide to get a field camera instead of a monorail.

A large format camera is a dead simple thing. It's a box with a bellows and a ground glass and place to slide in film holders and another to mount your lens. There's really no such thing as a "beginner" camera; they're all simple manually operated boxes that offer movements. One of the appeals to me of this form of photography is escaping the clutches of the consumer camera marketing machinery; I always lusted after that 5D and that newest sharpest updated IS USM mark II lens (whatever it was). This is all silly. Large format is a great way to escape that gear-centrism, because pretty much all the gear works very well! You can throw a 70 year old lens on a 70 year old camera and pump out bleeding-sharp images that will exceed the quality of a $10,000 professional DSLR setup.