Docter Wetzlar Germinar-W 240 f9

[Capocheny]

Greetings,

Just a curiosity here... how does the Docter Wetzlar Germinar-W 240mm f9 compare with the Schneider G-Claron f9 in terms of coverage, coatings, etc?

Or, to the 240 Nikkor f5.6?

Any first hand experiences with this lens?

Thanks in advance! :)

Cheers

[Jim Rice]

It's my understanding that it's pretty damn nice. Think multicoated g-claron, with maybe a bit more coverage, but that's just from my research here. And yes I spotted it too, but can't afford it at the moment. Here's the thread: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=20265

[Eric Leppanen]

Here is Kerry Thalmann's write-up on the 240mm Germinar when he was selling them earlier this year:

http://www.thalmann.com/Ebay/240mm_Germinar_W.html

Here's also a description of what I did to address light fall-off (highly specialized, I admit):

http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26539&highlight=germinar

I believe the latest View Camera magazine has the first installment of a three part article by Kerry, where he compares the Germinar and G-Claron, among others.

[Ted Harris]

I have been carrying both the Germinar W and my trusty Fujinon 240A for many months now. When I remembeer and have the time I make an exposure with both. I am usually shotting 5x7 or 4x5 so I am not pushing the coverage limits of the lenses. In terms of image quality I am usuallyhard pressed to tell the difference between the two. When I can discern a difference it is very subtle and subjective but I prefer the Germinar W. I really can't say much more that will not become total subjective babble. I have never used a G Claron so no help there.

The 240 A will not leave my kit however as, in its #0 shutter, it will remain the lens that travels constantly.

[Scott Davis]

The Nikkor 240 F5.6 is a massive lens with massive coverage. I still drag mine around with my 8x10 kit as it produces some excellent results, especially for shooting architecture. I'd rather have the Germinar over other options if I were looking to replace the Nikkor - I've got a Fuji 250 F6.7, and while it is a smaller, lighter lens than the Nikkor, for 8x10 I don't think it offers anywhere near the image circle. I use it as a longish-normal on my 5x7.

[Jim Galli]

I shot my 240 Docter on a sheet of 11X14 film and posted the photo somewhere :rolleyes: Can't find it anymore. Anyways it pinched the corners in exactly the same place the G-Claron does. It is contrastier than the GC. Sometimes that works for you and sometimes it doesn't. If I were shooting 8X10 chromes in the jungle I'd think of this lens first. 8X10 portraits in the studio, dead last.

[wfwhitaker]

I've been using the 240W Germinar to shoot 8x10 chromes, although not in the jungle. I've been very pleased with the results. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but I admit that I am. It's so nice when a lens works well for 8x10 and isn't the size and weight of a brick. I have no scans at this time, but when I do, I'll post them.

[Christopher Perez]

I have shot a 240 GClaron f/9, 250 Fuji f/6.7, 240 Fuji A f/9, 240 Germinar W f/9, and a 240 Symmar Convertible f/5.6.

For 8x10 work I prefer the Symmar for it's larger aperture. I would never have guessed what a difference one stop would make. By comparison, the f/9 lenses all seem dark on the 8x10 ground glass.

Having said this, the Germinar W is a favorite of mine. I have shot it on 4x5 and 5x7. I has plenty of coverage for 8x10 (with movements) and the "feel" is very similar to the GClaron in the way the resolution very gradually dimishes as you reach the edge of the field of illumination. Nice and controlled.

The Germinar W's multi-coatings (if you have that model) do help somewhat. I shot a pair of steam locomotives in a dark dimly lit roundhouse. With the floor to ceiling windows near the edge of the frame, the Germinar W handled the problem of potential flare very well. Nicer, that is, than the already wonderfully nice GClaron.

The Fuji A f/9 barely covers 8x10. It's resolution drops off more suddenly as you go beyond it's claimed 70 degrees of coverage than any of the other lenses listed here. Given it's size and multi-coatings, it's a strong recommendation for use on 4x5 and 5x7.

The Germinar W, GClaron, Fuji f/6.7 provide more "apparent" coverage than the Symmar Convertible when working with 8x10 contact prints. For 4x5 or 5x7 work, any of the aforementioned lenses will provide enormous coverage.

[Capocheny]

Thanks kindly for all the information and links related to my question... I'm tossing the idea of bidding on one of these lenses on the bay but couldn't decide whether there was enough of a difference from my Nikkor 240 and G-Claron to justify the purchase, or not.

I realize the Nikkor and the Fujinon 240A (both @ 336) has a larger IC than the G-Claron (@298.) But, as Chris stated, "The Fuji A f/9 barely covers 8x10."

Bottom line is that one company specifies a more conservative coverage than the other company. Confusing, isn't it? :)

Therefore, my main question is, "Is there more or less coverage with the Germinar than the G-Claron/Nikkor 240/Fujinon 240A when used with 8x10?"

Thanks again. :)

Cheers

[Eric Leppanen]

"Is there more or less coverage with the Germinar than the G-Claron/Nikkor 240/Fujinon 240A when used with 8x10?"

I can answer one third of your question: the Germinar provides considerably more coverage than the Fuji A (roughly 400mm @ f/64 versus 336mm regardless of aperture). On 8x10 in portrait orientation, the Fuji will give you maybe one inch of front rise, beyond which things get soft really fast. Haven't owned the other two lenses so I can't help there...

[Capocheny]

Hi Eric,

Thanks... I may just decide to "go for it" and, if I win it, I'll do some tests to see what the actual coverage is. :)

Cheers

[Ted Harris]

HMMMMM.......I see the lens is now up to $676! Shaking my head. If anybody has an interest in one of these at a price somewhat lower than that send me a PM. Or, if you have a 55/58 floating around and want to do some sort of a swap + cash. If this is their current value then I just can't justify holding onto mine.

[Geary Lyons]

HMMMMM.......I see the lens is now up to $676! Shaking my head.

Wow! Maybe I should have Kerry pick my stocks as well as my lenses!!

Cheers,
Geary

[naturephoto1]

But, the f9 Docter Germinar W on eBay includes a Copal 1 shutter granted, we don't know if aperture settings are correct), a Zeiss Polarizing filter and a lens hood. Kerry sold the lens in barrel for $250 and we know that there never that many ever available. We will have to see the ultimate price when the bidding ends. So had someone purchased the lens from Kerry, gotten a used shutter, filter and lens hood the price probably would have been on the order of $400 to $500 without having the lens apertures checked, adjusted, or inscribed on the shutter.

Rich

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

The 240mm f9 Germinar-W lenses I sold earlier this year and last year were in barrel mount and included the Zeiss polarizer and the lens hood (like the one on eBay). As I sold several at once, the folks at SK Grimes offered a special on a brand new Copal No. 1 shutter complete with the proper scales. I don't remeber the exact price, but I think it was around $300 for the shutter and engraved and installed sales. So, about $550 total.

So, the seller on eBay is definitely making a profit, but that's the nature of the game. When I sold the lenses, they were meant to be a bargain for members of APUG and this community. They were deliberately priced low to sell fast and get them in the hands of photographers. That goal was met, and now the only place to buy them is through resale (eBay or private sale). There are no more (other than the one I kept for myself) and never will be. This is a very rare item (not just eBay rare). Based on user reports, it is also a highly desirable item (a small, lightweight, multicoated 240mm lens capable of covering 8x10 with generous movement). I'm a little surprised that the price has gone as high as it has, but it truly is a case of the market setting the value in a true supply and demand scenario - very limited supply + high demand = high price.

Kerry

[Ted Harris]

Incredible!!!!!!!!! The auction closed at $1625.

[Jim Galli]

Incredible!!!!!!!!! The auction closed at $1625.

This will bring a flood of Germinars by sellers with $$ signs in their eyes. If anyone wants mine for a mere $1400 let me know.

[Ted Harris]

Hey, I already ofered mine for $650 but $1400 works too.

[Capocheny]

YIKES!

I didn't bid on the lens when the price starting climbing up into the stratosphere! :(

Cheers

[Jon Wilson]

Amazing....I was fortunate enough to obtain this lens from Kerry through apug....had the cells installed in a copal 1 shutter, the aperture scale accurately prepared by Adam (SK Grimes), and simply love it! BUT....love in this case has its price.....so if someone REALLY wants it like the crazy bidding on feepay....then "SHOW ME THE MONEY"....it is available.

[Oren Grad]

Thus is a "cult lens" born. :rolleyes:

Hey, I'd take $1400 for mine too...

[naturephoto1]

Thus is a "cult lens" born. :rolleyes:

Hey, I'd take $1400 for mine too...

Hi Oren,

That or the bidders got caught up in a feeding frenzy. :eek: :rolleyes:

Rich

[Vick Ko]

Guys,

I have a chronic case of "gotta have mythical lens" syndrome.

I read about Docter lenses a few weeks ago, and now must find one, but not at the astronomical $1600 price.

Can someone please offer me a reasonably priced Docter lens for 4x5", preferably in a common-usage zone such as 150mm?

Thanks
Vick

[naturephoto1]

Guys,

I have a chronic case of "gotta have mythical lens" syndrome.

I read about Docter lenses a few weeks ago, and now must find one, but not at the astronomical $1600 price.

Can someone please offer me a reasonably priced Docter lens for 4x5", preferably in a common-usage zone such as 150mm?

Thanks
Vick

Hi Vick,

I have been looking for the 150mm lens for awhile. Unfortunately, I tried to get one from Kerry just after he ran out. Still looking.:(

Rich

[clay harmon]

So, does this mean that I should actually use the one I have? Hmmm.

[Dan Fromm]

Clay, if you actually use your wonder lens all of the value will run out of it and you'll be left with an unsaleable paperweight. If you doubt this, compare the prices fetched by "pristine, untouched by human hands" and "user grade" Leicas.

[clay harmon]

You're right, of course. I'm going to have mine put into a block of Lucite for safekeeping.


Clay, if you actually use your wonder lens all of the value will run out of it and you'll be left with an unsaleable paperweight. If you doubt this, compare the prices fetched by "pristine, untouched by human hands" and "user grade" Leicas.

[Ted Harris]

Clay, if you have already taken the elements out of their little baggies and cleaned the filter then the value is gone. If you have actually mounted it :::::::shudder:::::::::: in a shutter well then there is no hope :).

[Ralph Barker]

. . . Can someone please offer me a reasonably priced Docter lens for 4x5", preferably in a common-usage zone such as 150mm?


To quote my favorite line from the film "Clear and Present Danger", "Two meel-yone doh-lars." ;)

It's a great little 150.

[Oren Grad]

That or the bidders got caught up in a feeding frenzy.

Indeed! Actually, what I'd like is some of the catnip (lensnip?) that the seller sprinkled on his lens to attract everybody like that. Now that would be a lucrative product...

[Ted Harris]

Oren and Ralph,

Only time will tell if it was a feeding frenzy. Thing is that the Germinar W lenses are rare beasties as there were very few made. I don't recall the exact production numbers of each focal length. Kerry or Arne will have to chime in with that. In addition to being rare they, or at least the 240, are excellent performers.

[wfwhitaker]

So has this auction disappeared? I saw it when it was active back in the $600 range, but now cannot find it at all searching completed auctions. Anybody have a link, please?

[Oren Grad]

Yeah, there's something strange here - I couldn't find it last night, and assumed it was just the usual brief blackout between when a lot disappears from the active list and when it shows up on the completed list. But I can't find it this morning, either.

[Sheldon N]

I had to use google to find it...

It's auction number 120057279246.

[Oren Grad]

Thanks, Sheldon - this time I've saved it.

[Geary Lyons]

This really is a very nice lens. Mine sees duty in 45, 57, & 810 and I am always very pleased with the results. That is, from the lens, my part often sucks! With Kerry's purchase and my group buy of mounting in new shutters by Grimes, it was really a bargain. But $1600+????

These lenses are destined for the street rep of the G-Clarons with added cache from the MC and rarity.

Look at the trouble you started Kerry!
Cheers,
Geary

[Sal Santamaura]

Note that the high bidder is in China. Just sending some of those Wal Mart bucks back to Columbus.

[naturephoto1]

The other crazy that was competing for the lens is from New Zealand.

Rich