Does Toyo 45CF offer rear tilt and swing?

[Rider]

I'm asking this question because I've seen conflicting information on this.

Does anyone know for sure whether the Toyo 45CF field camera offers rear tilt and swing?

[Ken C]

No, it does not.

[Joseph Dickerson]

It does not. I believe you could use the drop bed to achieve rearward tilt but it would be awkward.

The 45CF has generous movements in the front but none on the rear. Check out the Toyo (USA) web site for a comparison I did of the 45CF and the Shen Hao.

Joe D.

[Joseph Dickerson]

Looks like Ken C. and I were typing at the same time.

Joe D.

[Jeffrey Sipress]

Why don't you simply go to their website??

[Rider]

To answer Jeffrey's question and to expand on my original question, Toyo's website has this info for the 45CF, which just confuses me:

Base Tilt front & rear: 90°+15°

What is base tilt for the rear?

Are there field cameras out there with rear tilt? The only one I am aware of is the Canham, but it is way too expensive. How important is rear tilt in the field.

Joe D, where is Shen Hao comparison.

Thanks all!

[tim atherton]

Are there field cameras out there with rear tilt? The only one I am aware of is the Canham, but it is way too expensive. How important is rear tilt in the field.

!

Toyo 45A, AII, AX

(and yes, the Toyo USA website is confusingly innacurate - it's always been a fairly useless source of Toyo info imo)

[Rider]

I just found Joseph Dickerson's Shutterbug comparison of the Toyo 45CF and the Shen Hao, very informative since I am also considering that one.

I still don't understand why Toyo advertises "rear base tilt" and what that does.

Tim, I had forgotten about the A series Toyos. Alas, they too are pricey, even used.

[Eric Brody]

Rider-The lack of rear movements on the CF has been a source of frustration to those contemplating what is otherwise a reasonably useful camera. As others have said the "A" cameras, 45A, AII, AX, all offer all the movements, front and rear, that most nature and landscape photographers need. I shall send you a PM about the 45A I am selling if you are interested in such a camera.

Eric

[Geert]

I would not want a field camera without rear (base) tilt. It's the movement that I use the most.
Just think about Schleimpflug.

Rear base tilt means that the center of rotation for that movement, is located at the bottom of the rear box.

At least base tilt is a must have, center tilt should even be more interesting but I never worked with a camera that had it. (my Toyo C is still unused...)

G

[tim atherton]

If you can find an older 45A in decent condition, the price is usually fairly reasonable. And as long as it hasn't been abused, it's almost identical to the AX (difference being rubberized knobs and that's probably about it as far as I can remember? - mine was bought used and has being going strong for 12+ years now in some pretty adverse conditions)

[Brian Ellis]

"Rear base tilt means that the center of rotation for that movement, is located at the bottom of the rear box."

But the point is, if the camera doesn't have back movements (e.g. back tilt) what is Toyo talking about when they refer to rear base tilt? My guess is that the person who wrote for the web site was someone who didn't know anything about large format cameras or perhaps got the models confused. That may seem strange but I remember calling Nikon in the U.S. years ago with questions about one of their LF lenses. The several people I spoke with didn't know what a large format lens was and after I explained they said that Nikon never made any lenses like that.

[tim atherton]

"Rear base tilt means that the center of rotation for that movement, is located at the bottom of the rear box."

But the point is, if the camera doesn't have back movements (e.g. back tilt) what is Toyo talking about when they refer to rear base tilt? My guess is that the person who wrote for the web site was someone who didn't know anything about large format cameras or perhaps got the models confused. That may seem strange but I remember calling Nikon in the U.S. years ago with questions about one of their LF lenses. The several people I spoke with didn't know what a large format lens was and after I explained they said that Nikon never made any lenses like that.

and toyo us lists exactly the same specs for the CX and the AII/AX...

[Rider]

and toyo us lists exactly the same specs for the CX and the AII/AX...


Which is why I used to think that the CF and AII/AX were identical in this regard and did not see any reason to consider the AII/AX.

[tim atherton]

Which is why I used to think that the CF and AII/AX were identical in this regard and did not see any reason to consider the AII/AX.

what's also confusing is that in a way it does have backwards rear tilt - with the drop-bed function. And possibly the same number of degrees rear tilt as the AX etc. But I imagine it's one stop only, not variable. Either it's tilted or it isn't, which isn't much use.

[roteague]

How important is rear tilt in the field.

I use rear tilt quite frequently, on my 45AII. It is very handy when doing landscapes, since it allows you to increase the depth of field without having to use a smaller aperature.

[Jean-Marie Solichon]

"in a way it does have backwards rear tilt...But I imagine it's one stop only, not variable. Either it's tilted or it isn't, which isn't much use"
This is perfectly acurate: the only purpose of the CF rear base tilt is to provide the drop bed function.
I have been usin a CF for 2 years now, and my AII, my first 4x5 camera 7 years ago, does'nt get much use now. The AII has rear tilt and swing but so difficult to use that you just forget them. The CF has everything on the front standard : good center tilt, easier swing than the AII, more rise and fall than the AII. And 2lbs less. Its only weeker feature is the lack of a fresnel: the AII groundlass is much better.
When I need more features than the CF has I take my Sinar F1 it's not heavier than the AII and a dream to use.

[David Karp]

I saw a Toyo 45CF at the local Calumet store years ago, just when it was being introduced. The Mamiya America rep was showing it to my friend, who worked at the store, and I happened to drop by to invest more of my money in Calumet's success. My impression was that it was a lightweight plastic successor to the Crown Graphic, without the rangefinder, and similarly hampered for field camera use, due to its lack of back movements. The improvement that the CF offered in the back was that it was reversible.

[Darren Kruger]

what's also confusing is that in a way it does have backwards rear tilt - with the drop-bed function. And possibly the same number of degrees rear tilt as the AX etc. But I imagine it's one stop only, not variable. Either it's tilted or it isn't, which isn't much use.

I think it's designed for using a wide angle lens so the bed and not having the bed in the picture. I've never had a problem with my 90mm lens but I have not tried my CF with anything wider.

-Darren

[tim atherton]

I think it's designed for using a wide angle lens so the bed and not having the bed in the picture. I've never had a problem with my 90mm lens but I have not tried my CF with anything wider.

-Darren

Oh exactly, but technically it's could also be describes as x degrees of reaward tilt - especially if the copy writer didn't know what they were talking about....

[neil poulsen]

It would seem that with the drop bed together with front rise and fall), one can achieve the same effect as variable tilt.

To me, the question is whether it has shift AND swing on the front. It seems that with those movements, along with front drop, rise, and tilt, one shold be able to achieve the same effect on all movements. although perhaps not to the same degree.

[Jean-Marie Solichon]

YES : it has shift and swing (same lever lock), center tilt and rise and fall on the front.
And zero detent on all movements except rise and fall (red mark for neutral position).

[Ted Harris]

I would be less concerned about the lack of rear movemnts on the CF than I would about its sturdiness. I use an AII-L and one of the reasons I use it is because it is bomm proof. Having said that I too use rear tilt a lot in the field. I was initially put off by the seemingly shoddy construction of the early CF's but they seem to have taken care of that.

I know one CF user who swears by it because of its weight and he is very satisfied with its performance. This is someone with several different cameras so he can pick and choose but often chooss the CF.

[Brad Rippe]

HI Rider,
I use the Toyo CF as my lightweight backpacking camera and the lack of rear tilt is something I get around by first dropping the bed,(one fixed position) then adjusting the front tilt. Its NOT my Arca, but it's light and sturdy even though its carbon fiber. Easy to set up and use and it folds into itself with a small lens attached.
The last thing I want to do backpacking is have many small parts to lose, like the light monorails.
I'm going to try to develop a clamp to hold the back in a partially tilted position. This may not be a good idea, but it could make this a very nice camera if I can make it work. I don't understand why Toyo wouldn't have rear tilt capability like their other field cameras. It would add very little weight. Perhaps parts from another Toyo could be added. I think it's one of the most underrated field cameras because it has a
plasticy feel to it.
-Brad