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Rory_5244
20-Nov-2006, 13:06
Woe is me. After months of taking pictures and then sending up the pile via DHL, with warnings taped all over the box, "PHOTOGRAPHIC FILM", "DO NOT EXPOSE TO LIGHT", etc., I received a bunch of transparent sheets back from Calypso Imaging today. Some sheets have images that are barely discernible. Everything went so well last time with a FedEx/A&I combination. I can't believe it. I don't know who to blame or where the film may have been exposed. Did I do it? I rather doubt it: I'm pretty obsessed. I was touting how great 8x10 was just a couple days ago, now this. I think I'll crawl into a dark corner now and DIE.

snuck
20-Nov-2006, 13:18
Woe is me. After months of taking pictures and then sending up the pile via DHL, with warnings taped all over the box, "PHOTOGRAPHIC FILM", "DO NOT EXPOSE TO LIGHT", etc., I received a bunch of transparent sheets back from Calypso Imaging today. Some sheets have images that are barely discernible. Everything went so well last time with a FedEx/A&I combination. I can't believe it. I don't know who to blame or where the film may have been exposed. Did I do it? I rather doubt it: I'm pretty obsessed. I was touting how great 8x10 was just a couple days ago, now this. I think I'll crawl into a dark corner now and DIE.

Obviously someone from the department of homeland security didn't believe tha it was film. You have my condolences. This has nothing to do with the 8x10 format, and everything to do with shipping.
Cheers

Ed Richards
20-Nov-2006, 13:38
Were they fogged? Was it uniform? Was it all of them?

Rory_5244
20-Nov-2006, 14:07
Hi Ed,

They were all uniformly transparent, except for 2 (at the bottom of the box) that were also uniformly exposed, but not as much as the others. On those two I can see a very light, burned out image on the film. I wonder of DHL will accept liability. Probably not.

Ben Hopson
20-Nov-2006, 14:10
Wow! I just returned home after about six weeks on the road. I have a bunch of 4X5, 8X10 and 120 that needs to be processed and I was ready to send the color film to Calypso. I still will, but after reading your horror story I will be more concerned about it's safe handling in route. I have not had any problem using Fed X or UPS in the past and hope the trend continues.

Sorry about your loss.

Capocheny
20-Nov-2006, 14:32
Rory,

OUCH! You have my deepest sympathies and condolences!

How many sheets were there?

[In the future (Ben, you might want to take note :)) you might want to divide up your films and send them at different times and dates.]

Any opportunities for re-shooting the images?

Cheers

Rory_5244
20-Nov-2006, 14:36
Thanks for the thoughts, everybody. You're all great.

Ed Richards
20-Nov-2006, 14:48
> They were all uniformly transparent, except for 2 (at the bottom of the box) that were also uniformly exposed, but not as much as the others. On those two I can see a very light, burned out image on the film. I wonder of DHL will accept liability. Probably not.

Does sound like they got hit with a pretty good dose. As for liability, how much did you insure them for? You might get the value of the film and processing back. Gives some pause when you think about mail order film, which most of us have to buy.

Rory_5244
20-Nov-2006, 15:15
Thanks, Ed. 20 sheets insured for $200. USD approx. (Kodak E100VS).

John Hannon
20-Nov-2006, 15:43
Rory, I am very sorry to hear about this. Do you think the film was zapped when it was mailed to you new or on the way to the lab?

I think the idea of dividing up a large shipment is a good one.

--John

Rory_5244
20-Nov-2006, 16:32
Thank you for the support, John. This batch of film came as a single shipment of 5 ten sheet boxes from Badger Graphic. I have exposed and developed 1 box already, and the results were perfect. So, I doubt it was zapped when I got it, as it would have affected the box I shot previously. Do you guys wrap the transparencies in some sort of black plastic bag or something, in addition to the film box?

David A. Goldfarb
20-Nov-2006, 16:51
No, I just put it in the film box. I'm glad I've got good labs that are local to me. If I couldn't take it in myself, I suspect I'd go back to running my own E-6.

Rory_5244
20-Nov-2006, 20:42
Heh, heh. Well this is all that I could pull out of the carnage. I had to convert it to b&w (no colours left anyway). Maybe I can lie and say I took it with a shoebox camera. :o

Jorge Gasteazoro
21-Nov-2006, 07:03
Rory, I know how dissapointing this can be. OTOH for future reference I have found out that once properly trained, UPS is the best carrier for exposed or un exposed film. I live in Mexico and have to import all my film, I tried all the carriers. Fedex and DHL had the quaint habit of opening the film boxes before they left the US. UPS was the only one which heeded the film warning taped to the box.

better luck next time

Michael Mutmansky
21-Nov-2006, 07:39
Rory,

That looks like heat fog to me, not x-rays. Did you leave the film in a trunk for any period of time? The delivery company may have left it in the back of a truck for a couple of days as well. What color was the fogged areas?

Do you see any patterns in the fogging that would suggest an x-ray machine? Can you find a precise overlap of the pattern from one sheet to the next?


---Michael

PViapiano
21-Nov-2006, 08:32
Rory...

Where did you send your film from? Inside the US?

Rory_5244
21-Nov-2006, 08:56
Hi everyone. Michael, the only surviving tranny had a reddish orange fog around the perimeter. All the rest were like completely transparent pieces of plastic. Hi PViapiano, the film was sent via DHL from Trinidad (in the Caribbean) to Santa Cruz, CA. I have done this before with FedEx without a problem.

I spoke to the DHL guy who took the package, and he swears that the box would not be reopened, once sealed in the DHL carrier. Only US customs will open a sealed package. DHL has given me instructions to file a claim.

I contacted A&I (my usual tranny-developer-people) to let them know I will be sending up a single 8x10 to process soon. If disaster strikes again, that will probably close the door on colour slide film for me: my job just doesn't allow me the time to process slide film myself.

Donald Qualls
21-Nov-2006, 15:18
Heat fog wouldn't affect the top films more than the bottom ones, unless the box was sitting on something cooler. That looks like *exactly* what I'd expect, however, if the box was opened.

I might add that it's not completely unheard of for a new employee at a film lab to open a box in the light; I've read a tale of a pro who came into the lab and berated the (new) girl at the front desk about how the last time they'd lost one sheet of his film, and they'd better be sure they returned every shot he'd brought in this time, so, after doing the paperwork, while she was walking the box back to the lab, she opened it to count the sheets...

Steven Barall
21-Nov-2006, 15:59
I agree that it's a terrible idea to ship that much film all at once. You have to be paranoid when it comes to your film.

Rory_5244
21-Nov-2006, 17:13
Yeah. Lessons learned the hard way. Speaking of labs, Calypso Imaging did not respond to my email. I just wanted to know if Gladys (customer service) remembered whether the package was unsealed when it arrived. Maybe they think I want them to reverse the processing charges. ;)

Rory_5244
21-Nov-2006, 19:00
Just to set the record straight; Calypso just replied. They're as mystified as I am. Oh well.

ronald moravec
21-Nov-2006, 21:41
Pros do things differently.

Film is bought in large batches and random sheets are checked before it is ever used on a job

Shoot multiple rolls/sheets of each subject

Never send it all in for processing at the same time

Now that we have x rays, further precaution need to be taken.

A few years back I heard of a film crew that spent 8 weeks in Austraila. You guessed it. X rays got every last can. This was before it was public knowledge.

My opinion, the x ray zelots should be shot. This whole situation is BS.

Convert to digital if you travel. It is the only way. We will not win this one.
Regardless of what they say, hand baggage x rays fog film too including slow stuff.

Jim Ewins
21-Nov-2006, 23:14
It's back to the middle ages, trust no one, take every precaution. King John or is it George is here to help keep us secure!

Michael Gordon
22-Nov-2006, 00:45
Regardless of what they say, hand baggage x rays fog film too including slow stuff.

That's why I demand a hand check and get it. Unfortunately, my international success rate with demanding a hand check has been close to nil :mad: The upside is that I've experienced no damages with hand baggage x-ray.

Michael Kadillak
23-Nov-2006, 20:46
In this day and age there is no system of transporting light sensitive materials (particularly in international transit) that can be trusted. Those are the facts.

If you decide that the insurance is worthy of the risk then go for it. Proving where the damage occurred will be a long hard road come claim time.

I have come to the conclusion that you need to own the entire process if you want to take this variable out of the equation. If I shot color I would use a JOBO if a local lab was not an option. You could pay it out with a few episodes like the one described here. Someone could make a lot of money figuring this one out. I have my hands full with a lens project or I would be on it.

Anyone?

Rory_5244
23-Nov-2006, 22:22
You are all absolutely right. Yes, Michael K., I have no choice now other than Tetenal! You're doubly right about the difficulty in pinpointing where the problem occurred. It is very likely that the carrier may suggest that I exposed my own box of film, though they seem rather sympathetic presently. I don't even know if someone opened the box, or the damage was the result of intense X-rays. The people at Calypso recently told me that everything about the package seemed to be in order until the film was processed.

I know it's my paranoia again, but it just seems like the denizens are making the use of film much harder than it should be. Last month I received a shipment of Ilford FP4+ 8x10 film from B&H. When I looked at the box, I saw the seals broken (by customs), and that the customs officer obviously didn't know how to put back the inner box properly. Luckily, the film packet was intact. It's only a matter of time before they'll open that too, I guess.

roteague
23-Nov-2006, 22:44
Bummer, but I would more inclined to blame the shipper. I just got a batch of 4x5 transparencies back from Calypso and they were just perfect.

I should add that I really have no choice but to use an outside processor. There are no E6 labs left here (AFAIK), and most E6 kits that I am aware are not shippable by air.

Rory_5244
23-Nov-2006, 23:43
Do you use QuickLoads, Robert?

roteague
24-Nov-2006, 11:12
Do you use QuickLoads, Robert?

Yes, about 90% of the time.

roteague
24-Nov-2006, 11:16
Convert to digital if you travel. It is the only way. We will not win this one. Regardless of what they say, hand baggage x rays fog film too including slow stuff.

I'll stick with film, thank you. I just returned from Australia, where I carried a 4x5 camera, 3 lenses, a 35mm with lens, and a lot of film on the airplane. I had very little problem at all.

Hand baggage x-rays, in most modern countries, DOES NOT damage film. I've had my film go through the hand baggage x-ray as many as 10 times, without noticeable problems. I live on an island, I have to travel by air, and I carry too much film to have it all hand inspected. I don't know who told you this, but it isn't true.

Chris_Brown
26-Nov-2006, 09:58
This is indeed a sad tale. The sick feeling is unlike any other: the desire to go back in time, the disbelief, the anger, the realization that anything you do won't fix the film and bring up an image.

The last time I had a problem was at my local lab, which I'd used for 15 years. I dropped off 20 rolls of 120 color neg. I told the owner to process it in five-roll batches and to make sure all was in good order before processing the next batch. This was something he'd done for me many times, and something he recommended to all customers with large quantities of film.

It didn't help. All the film was totally fogged. The film was fogged at the tails of the film, an indication that it was fogged while unrolled from the backing paper -- not a camera issue but a darkroom issue. Then the lab owner blamed me. I was shocked and told him that the first opprotunity to shoot digital and avoid his lab, I'd take it.

He went out of business last December. I wasn't the only photographer to cut him out of the loop, too.

Unfortunately, a cost effective digital alternative to LF photography doesn't exist. I think the best solution for you, Rory, is to process your own film (you didn't say why it wasn't possible for you). Think Jobo ATL. Hire a smart young person part-time and train them.

Rory_5244
26-Nov-2006, 10:37
Thank you, Chris. I will be taking up your advice, as well as the other advice forwarded by those of this most excellent community.

TLGG1
26-Nov-2006, 19:30
"Hand baggage x-rays, in most modern countries, DOES NOT damage film. I've had my film go through the hand baggage x-ray as many as 10 times, without noticeable problems."

Drunk drivers in most modern countried DO NOT kill people. I've driven in many countries for years and never been killed by a drunk driver.

Just because it has not happened to you does not mean it does not happen to others. It does happen. Play the odds often enough and one of these days they will catch up to you. Miscalibrated machine. Operator who decides to sit & watch your package a number of times or for a long, long time because he can't figure out what he is seeing. Many things can happen. Just because you have not had problems does not mean others don't.

roteague
26-Nov-2006, 19:36
Just because it has not happened to you does not mean it does not happen to others. It does happen. Play the odds often enough and one of these days they will catch up to you. Miscalibrated machine. Operator who decides to sit & watch your package a number of times or for a long, long time because he can't figure out what he is seeing. Many things can happen. Just because you have not had problems does not mean others don't.

Yep, and the sky is falling as well.

kjsphotography
27-Nov-2006, 02:40
Man my heart goes out to you. This is terrible. I also send out chrome to get processed but I've only used FedEx. Has anyone had any problems with FedEx? Also try E and J Photo in Dublin California. Eric is the owner and a pleasure to deal with. It has been a while since I spoke with him as I only do BW now but last I heard he was still processing chrome. Give him a call and ask fro Eric or Kurt and say Kevin sent ya.

Good luck and I am so sorry...

Rory_5244
27-Nov-2006, 07:44
Thank you, Kevin. I have used FedEx for my previous 8x10 transparency transport with no problems.

yelmarb
28-Nov-2006, 05:42
If an x-ray machine had fogged the film, the fogging would look like lens flare coloured bands (around 1cm wide) running down the length of the film. On 120 or 35mm this looks like a sine wave running through the length of the roll. The fogging is usually recoverable with the help of Photoshop.

This will certainly occur if you checked your baggage and film in as airports now use high dose x-ray machines for checked-in baggage. It's very unlikely to happen with a hand baggage x-ray machines as theses are low dose, designed to x-ray without fogging film. Just look for the "film ok" sign on the front of the machine. I've had my film x-rayed through hundreds of (hand baggage) machines at some dodgy airports too without any fogging.

My bet is that it's very unlikely DHL would open up a package. More likely that the office junior who received the parcel at the lab has opened up the box expecting to see rolls of film inside. Gone through a few sheets of the un-processed film, realised what they are and then attempted to close the box to prevent anymore film from being fogged.

Rory_5244
28-Nov-2006, 06:31
methinks that you are exactly right, yelmarb. Thanks.

roteague
28-Nov-2006, 10:32
More likely that the office junior who received the parcel at the lab has opened up the box expecting to see rolls of film inside. Gone through a few sheets of the un-processed film, realised what they are and then attempted to close the box to prevent anymore film from being fogged.

I can't see Calypso doing something like that - they know what they are doing.

cyrus
28-Nov-2006, 11:03
Funny - the 2 times I've accidentally left film in the checked baggage, its been OK. Pure luck I guess.

However, I really really doubt that FedEx or any of other shippers have a guy who checks each package for a sticker that says "Film - Do Not X-ray" and frankly I would really not risk it if I could just carry the stuff on board the airplane on my way back.

roteague
28-Nov-2006, 11:18
However, I really really doubt that FedEx or any of other shippers have a guy who checks each package for a sticker that says "Film - Do Not X-ray" and frankly I would really not risk it if I could just carry the stuff on board the airplane on my way back.

I don't think FedEx has to x-ray anything - they own their own airplanes, and don't carry passengers.

FWIW, I ship almost all my film for processing, to Calypso, via USPS.

BrianShaw
28-Nov-2006, 11:34
I can't see Calypso doing something like that - they know what they are doing.

I couldn't imagine this either... except just the other day I ahd a new employee at my local pro lab (who I trust with ANYTHING) ask me if the Tri-X I handed him for processing was E-6 or C-41. Anything can happen, I suppose, but I wouldn't expect it at a top-notch firm.

roteague
28-Nov-2006, 11:50
I couldn't imagine this either... except just the other day I ahd a new employee at my local pro lab (who I trust with ANYTHING) ask me if the Tri-X I handed him for processing was E-6 or C-41. Anything can happen, I suppose, but I wouldn't expect it at a top-notch firm.

I hope not. I just sent them another batch of film yesterday. :eek:

Actually, I'm quite confident of their quality and service. I just wish I had found them years earlier.

Rory_5244
28-Nov-2006, 12:43
Oh, I thought yelmarb was referring to an office junior at the shipping company. I wouldn't expect nonsense like this from Calypso, or A&I. X-rays didn't cause this particular problem either: the box was opened in daylight. I feel comfortable blaming DHL.

QT Luong
28-Nov-2006, 20:15
Sorry to hear about that Rory. Everything you describe points to someone opening the box rather than x-ray damage (I've suffered from both). The lab that Kerry Thalmann used and recommanded in Portland - don't remember positively the name - opened a film box of mine. In connection with their move to Santa Cruz, Calypso recently hired new employees. What I always recommend is to expose the two sides of each holder with the same image, and unload them in separate film boxes. Hold on your second box while the first is processed, even if you do not plan to make processing adjustments.

Graeme Hird
28-Nov-2006, 21:14
Hi Rory,

I hope you will be able to recreate the conditions which allowed you to shoot those films. The loss of the images is the most devastating thing from all of this, and you have my sympathies.

A new employee at my long-time lab from a few years ago ignorantly opened one of my boxes and fogged all the film inside. The results looked exactly as you are describing. I never used the lab again because the incident demonstrated they were not training their new staff in all aspects of film development. Apparently, the new staff member had never heard of sheet film and their boss neglected to mention it until it was too late.

Now I always tape my boxes closed and tape a note on the front of the box saying "Do Not Open - Contains Unprocessed Film", even if I know the lab to be a good one.

Oh, and I just bought myself a Job ATL two weeks ago, so I won't need to deal with the issue again with luck.

Cheers,
Graeme

F'ueco
5-Dec-2006, 09:55
Oh, I thought yelmarb was referring to an office junior at the shipping company. I wouldn't expect nonsense like this from Calypso, or A&I. X-rays didn't cause this particular problem either: the box was opened in daylight. I feel comfortable blaming DHL.


One of my co-workers tipped me off to this thread, so I figured that I should at least let my view be heard.

I am the film tech at Calypso, and have been running all of the film for the past few months, and before that I was running about 80% of it for the previous 2 3/4 years. I can guarantee that this problem was not caused by us.

I am fairly certain that the box was closed properly when we received it. I always notice when triple boxes are not properly closed. And if that had happened, I would have at least put a note in with the film. However, I would never know if the film had been opened somewhere in shipping. Most photographers reuse their boxes, so multiple layers of tape mean nothing. If it was opened, and then triple boxed again, it would look fine when it came in to us.

Usually when film comes in that is that badly exposed, I just assume that it is a case of someone who is new to large format photography not knowing how to handle the film. I can relate, it happened to me with 4x5's when I took Photo 2 years ago ('98).

My guess would be that DHL caused the problem, and you should at least be able to get your $200 back, and possibly the processing cost.

Another client of ours recently lost some film to FedEx. And another nearly lost his film to the Postal Service (an alert mail carrier caught that one for us, and was able to return the film the next day --She had seen it in a "lost mail" bin at the post office).

Your best bet is to be a bit paranoid. Multiple batches in shipping and in processing are the way to go...

Mike

naturephoto1
5-Dec-2006, 10:17
Yeah. Lessons learned the hard way. Speaking of labs, Calypso Imaging did not respond to my email. I just wanted to know if Gladys (customer service) remembered whether the package was unsealed when it arrived. Maybe they think I want them to reverse the processing charges. ;)

Hi Rory,

So sorry to hear about the lost images. Eric (who now works for Calypso) and his mother Gladys used to be Bill Nordstrom's (Laser Light Photographics) assistant and customer service respectively until earlier this year when they went their separate way. If you need printing off of a Chromira machine from your transparencies, consider Bill as your printer. He has been my printer for 12 years.

Rich

roteague
5-Dec-2006, 10:30
One of my co-workers tipped me off to this thread, so I figured that I should at least let my view be heard.

I am the film tech at Calypso, and have been running all of the film for the past few months, and before that I was running about 80% of it for the previous 2 3/4 years. I can guarantee that this problem was not caused by us.

Mike,

Thanks for dropping in and providing us with your perspective. Personally, I have nothing but good to say about Calypso. I have always found the service to be outstanding. In fact, I am expecting to receive another batch of LF transparenices in the mail today from you. Calypso service and price are such that, even if I had my own processor, I would still send my film to Calypso for processing.

Rory_5244
5-Dec-2006, 10:59
Thanks Mike. No need to defend Calypso; it's not their fault. DHL on the other hand...

F'ueco
5-Dec-2006, 14:58
Mike,

Thanks for dropping in and providing us with your perspective. Personally, I have nothing but good to say about Calypso. I have always found the service to be outstanding. In fact, I am expecting to receive another batch of LF transparenices in the mail today from you. Calypso service and price are such that, even if I had my own processor, I would still send my film to Calypso for processing.


I do remember running your film a few days ago. I'm always jealous when I see that address... One of these days I will visit Hawaii.

roteague
5-Dec-2006, 15:24
I do remember running your film a few days ago. I'm always jealous when I see that address... One of these days I will visit Hawaii.

Let me know if you do, I'll show you some neat places to photograph.

Ben Hopson
5-Dec-2006, 17:49
I just received my first order back from Calypso today. I only wish I had been using their service long before now. Quick turnaround and good price is hard to beat___ and my dog loves to see the UPS truck comming up the driveway. She always gets a treat from her pal the driver.

roteague
5-Dec-2006, 22:26
I got my order from them as well, excellent as always.

I used to use a lab in San Diego, until they went out of business, and I'm sure glad that I looked around and found Calypso. When I first found them, I asked a bunch of questions about their low prices on APUG, and the owner signed onto APUG and answered all of them. How is that for service?