Trouble clearing magenta stain

[Laszlo]

I have trouble clearing te magenta stain of TMax 100. My workflow is D76 straight (or XTol) - water stop 1min - TF-4 for 4 minutes - water 1min - Heico Perma Wash 1min - water 1min - water with PhotoFlo (sp?) 1min. The negs have a pronounced magenta cast. When I develop Maco IR in the same batch, the negs are clear.

I recently modified the workflow:
1. increased fixation to 6 minutes
2. increased Heico wash to 2 minutes
3. use 2 water washes after Heico

I have also mixed new TF-4 (and got new developer). My Heico concentrate is about one year old.

The negs still have a magenta cast, albeit less.

Does anyone have a suggestion on where to take it from here? Thanks.

[John Brady]

Laszlo, I am not familiar with "Heico Wash", but i shoot t-max and do my own processing. The magenta stain is very stuborn, but I find a 15 minute water wash does the trick for me. Make sure you do complete changes of the water bath for the rinse. When I have removed the stain I give the film a quick dip in hypo clear and hang it up to dry. I use pyrocat hd and t-max rs developer. Hope this helps.
http://www.timeandlight.com

[Yong-ran Zhu]

I also use Tmax film and Xtol developer. However, I use regular acid stop, which is the Kodak's routine. The water stop is recommended by Ilford for Ilford films. I use Ilford repid fixer, which can avoid using Perma as Ilford mentioned. Then you have to increase your wash time to 10 min. The film will be clear.
Yong-ran Zhu

[Mr. Doyle]

Laszlo,
Extended fix followed by an extended wash will cure this. In my early days processing and printing for the Topguns I had to send out many Tmax films magenta because the photographer wanted the film so quick. Most black and white films have a base colour, Plus x is green....
After ten years in the black and white printing and processing game I am open for questions about my dark past......

[Oren Grad]

I would shorten your fix back to where you started, but use a longer wash. If you extend the wash as long as ten minutes and still have trouble, I would then extend the Perma Wash step, not the fixer.

I did a run of TMX via rotary development in my Jobo earlier this week. 5 minute fix in Ilford Hypam 1+4, followed directly by a 12 minute wash in six changes of water, resulted in clean, completely cleared negatives, as always. No Perma Wash needed.

[Ron Marshall]

What Oren said. I add a presoak. Incidentally, Rodinal works very nicely with this film and also helps to rid it of the dye.

[Brian Ellis]

Magenta stains are often caused by improper fixing, either too short a time or exhausted fix. However, TMax is more prone to magenta stains than other types of film so a very slight magenta tint isn't unusual and won't affect your prints.

Your revised procedure seems fine to me except that the wash times seem short. I think you're using the wash times that Heico suggests in its instructions but I always thought those were very optimistic. I used to rinse TMax 100 for two minutes out of the fix, then Heico for the time recommended in the instructions (one or two minutes I believe), then wash for 10 minutes in a Salt Hill film washer (similar to a print washer with separate slots for each sheet and continuous water flow). That would normally remove virtually all the magenta, maybe just a very slight tint occasionally.

If the magenta really bothers you you could re-fix the negatives in a fresh batch of fix and see if that helps. There's no harm in refixing. But unless it's deep magenta as opposed to a slight tint I wouldn't worry about it.

[Andy Eads]

Lay the film out on a light table for a few hours. The dye bleaches out very fast.

[Ken Lee]

Sandy King suggested this to me, and it works nicely: After fix and a brief wash, soak the film in a 10% solution of Sodium Sulfite for 5-10 minutes. Then proceed with washing.

Note that in many formulas for "Hypo Clear", the active ingredient is Sodium Sulfite, and the remaining ingredients are preservatives. If you mix your own, a teaspoon of powder per litre is a good ratio, and is so cheap, it can be thrown away. Thus, there is no need for preservatives, since there is no "shelf-life".

As already stated, a few minutes of pre-soak also helps removes stain, in advance.

[Bruce Watson]

I have to ask what may be a dumb question: what does a magenta tint hurt? I would think it's just a component of base+fog and that you can print (or scan) right through it.

If it's a deep stain then it would be an indication of a processing failure of some kind (improper fixing most likely). A tint shouldn't matter -- but does it? If so, what's the effect?

I'm serious - just trying to learn something here...

[John Brady]

Sorry, I meant photo-flo, not hypo clear............

[Brian Ellis]

I have to ask what may be a dumb question: what does a magenta tint hurt? I would think it's just a component of base+fog and that you can print (or scan) right through it.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't think a slight magenta tint hurts anything and I'd just ignore it. I'm not sure even a deep, saturated tint would hurt either but I've never tried printing something ike that. If I ever got a really heavy magenta I think it would have been caused by exhausted fix and I would have refixed. But I have some TMax 100 negatives that have a slight tint and printing them wasn't a problem.

[Ken Lee]

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't think a slight magenta tint hurts anything and I'd just ignore it. I'm not sure even a deep, saturated tint would hurt either but I've never tried printing something ike that. If I ever got a really heavy magenta I think it would have been caused by exhausted fix and I would have refixed. But I have some TMax 100 negatives that have a slight tint and printing them wasn't a problem.

Wouldn't a Magenta tint affect the contrast of an analog print ? It seems to me that a Magenta stain is akin to placing a magenta filter beneath the enlarging lens.

[sanking]

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't think a slight magenta tint hurts anything and I'd just ignore it. I'm not sure even a deep, saturated tint would hurt either but I've never tried printing something ike that. If I ever got a really heavy magenta I think it would have been caused by exhausted fix and I would have refixed. But I have some TMax 100 negatives that have a slight tint and printing them wasn't a problem.

If you are printing with VC papers the magenta stain will have some impact on contrast. How much, I don't know for sure. Kodak, in some literature I read, said to just ignore the stain. But the stain is anti-halation dye and it needs to be out of there as far as I am concerned.

In any event, the stain is not caused by old or exhausted fixer, but it is simply a characteristic of certain films. TMY has a rather heavy stain. You can get rid of it by very long wash times, or by use of Perma Clear or Hypo Clear. As Ken noted, I just soak the film in a tray of a 1-2% sodium sulfite solution. That clears the stain up nicely.

Sandy King

[Brian Ellis]

Wouldn't a Magenta tint affect the contrast of an analog print ? It seems to me that a Magenta stain is akin to placing a magenta filter beneath the enlarging lens.

It might be a factor in selecting the appropriate contrast, it's kind of hard to say since you select the contrast based on the negative at hand, with or without the magenta tint.

[cobalt]

I find that by developing tmax in hc110, I don't have that problem any longer.

[robc]

I think all T-Grain films require more fixing than older non T-Grain films. The manufacturers spec state longer times for their T-Grain films such as Ilford Delta and Kodak T-Max. 5 minutes minmum I would say for the T-Grain films I have used.
Using slightly warm water also helps with the washing. Maybe 5 degrees warmer than your developing temp.
If you wash using cold tap water it will take a very long time to clear the magenta cast.

[Laszlo]

Wow, thank you all for your answers.

I increased fixing by 50% after reviewing Formulary's TF-4 literature and also because John Sexton recommended this (elsewhere in this site) for TMX. My comparison with Maco IR film (non-T grain, old formula) suggests TMX is indeed more demanding in terms of fixing and washing.

After reading your recs, I refixed some negatives I did a few months ago. Diligent washing (Heico x 2 min instead of the 1 min recommended on the bottle followed by several water exchanges) did indeed clear them.

I think will fix for 6 min from now on and use the above washing routine.

[robc]

The magenta tint could affect contrast on VC paper if it was not even across the neg. If it was even then you would adjust print contrast accordingly. But that is not relevant because it should be washed out completely. If it isn't then several things may happen. Firstly it may not be the same density from one development to the next so you will have inconsistent negs. Secondly it may not be washed out evenly across the whole film so you will have inconsistent negs. Thirdly, it may well fade over time so you will not have consistent negs from one print session to another. Fourth, if you change fixer you will likely have different amount of dye left than other fixer so negs wont be consistent from one development to another. i.e. get rid of magenta cast when you develop.

[chilihead]

when finished fixing, rinse the film with water for about 30 secs, dump and then soak the film in 1 rounded tsp Sodium carbonate to 1 L. of water for about 2-3 minutes - repeat if necessary - then wash --- works like a charm ... P

[John Bowen]

I too use the TF-4 with Tmax-400 films. I use a 6 minute fix (3 min lights off, 3 min lights on) then wash for 10-15 minutes in the Zone VI washer. No trace of magenta stain.

Have fun,

[ronald moravec]

The fresher the fix, the better the stain comes out. Second suggestion is the sodium sulphite ( hypo clearing agent almost) previously mentioned.

High waterflow rates don`t help after the first 5 rinses. Prolonged soaking does.

But fresh fix is the best solution.

[Laszlo]

Ronald, before writing my post, I replaced the TF4. Using spanking brand new TF x 4 minutes still left a stain. Thus it seems both a fresh fixer and more extensive fixing and washing are necessary to clear.

[robc]

What is curious about the longer fix time required for T-Grain films is that it always seems to be associated with removing the anti halation dye. There is no reason why the dye in t-grain films takes more fixing to remove it unless perhaps the gelatin was harder which I don't think is the case. Infact fuji acros seems to be very soft.

So why is longer fixing required? I suspect that its the actual silver halides that need extra fixing and that the dye has been made in such a way to make it more difficult to remove, which encourages longer fixing. But that is pure guess work so does anyone actually know why T-grain films require more fixing?

[Ron Marshall]

What is curious about the longer fix time required for T-Grain films is that it always seems to be associated with removing the anti halation dye. There is no reason why the dye in t-grain films takes more fixing to remove it unless perhaps the gelatin was harder which I don't think is the case. Infact fuji acros seems to be very soft.

So why is longer fixing required? I suspect that its the actual silver halides that need extra fixing and that the dye has been made in such a way to make it more difficult to remove, which encourages longer fixing. But that is pure guess work so does anyone actually know why T-grain films require more fixing?

I find it much harder to remove the dye from TMX than TMY. I always do a presoak with TMX which takes much of it off.

[robc]

It also occurs to me that the magenta colouring is a by product of the fixing process.

Iodine gives off a deep purple/magenta colour and I think T-Grain films use more iodine than normal films so that could be one possible cause of the "Magenta" cast. So it may not be anti halation dye at all.

We need an expert chemist to answer this.

[Ole Tjugen]

It's not the anti-halation dyes, it's one of the sensitising dyes that is the problem. The T-grain grains have an iodine-rich core, and silver iodide has a different spectral sensitivity from silver bromide and chloride. So to get a good spectral response, the T-grain films need a different sensitising dye from what's used in "traditional" films.

The magenta stain has nothing to do with the iodine itself, but is in a way a consequence of the higher iodide content of T-grain films.

All of the above is pure conjecture on my part...

I have found that the stain disappears when at least one of the baths in the process has a sufficiently high pH. It's much stronger if the developer is D-23; still present in D-76, and practically none at all in Neofin Blau.

[robc]

Ole, that makes more sense

[George Grosu]

I think yours problems it s a little concentration or to miss of potassium or sodium bisulphite ( K2S2O5 or Na2S2O5 ) in your fixer.
If the b/w films have a magenta cast after the processing, you can eliminate with a solution of potassium bisulphate 10.0 g/l (time 4 min. at 20 oC). After the treatment with the bisulphate solution make a good wash for the film.

1) make a test;
2) make a test;
3) make a frame.

Good lake,
George

[Laszlo]

George, thanks for the suggestion. I doubt the fixer is lacking anything. As noted, I used fresh TF 4 prepared the same day. The problem is solved, BTW, as noted above. I get clear film base with slightly longer development and a lot longer washing.

[HorsemanShooter]

I've been using TMAX 100 for over decade, I used to have this problem, pinkish negs, then solved the problem:

Fix 10 minutes in FRESH fix, not 5.
Use hypo clear as directed
Wash 5 minutes.

I now get perfectly neutral / gray negs, no pink residue. This is the solution, proper processing, not futzing around with other chemicals or "it wont have any effect on the print" - that is NOT a solution. Just do it correctly when processing and your problems will vanish, gauranteed.

[Louie Powell]

I have to ask what may be a dumb question: what does a magenta tint hurt? I would think it's just a component of base+fog and that you can print (or scan) right through it.

If it's a deep stain then it would be an indication of a processing failure of some kind (improper fixing most likely). A tint shouldn't matter -- but does it? If so, what's the effect?

I'm serious - just trying to learn something here...

Two things. First, the magenta color will affect how the negative prints on variable contrast paper - pink negatives will be biased toward higher contrast, and coloration in the negative will interfere with intentional contrast changes that you might want to make by selecting filters during printing.

Second, as you note, the presence of a stain indicates that either fixation or washing may have been incomplete. "Processing failure" may be too harsh a term. The risk of an actual problem increases with stain density, but since iit was not intended to be a calibrated indicator, there's no way to read the stain to determine when there is a problem. However, the converse is true and the absence of stain suggests that the negative was fully fixed. My practice is to err on the side of safety and assume that if the negatives are pink, they need to be refixed and rewashed.

[toyoman]

I confer with Louie, the magenta does have an effect. All you have to do is scan the pink'sh neg and compare it to scanning the #2.5 to #3.5 multicontrast filters (Kodak or Illford), and then comparing the RGB color in the info. window within Photoshop. You'll see that the color info will carry the same range of colors with slightly less saturation. Knowing how most multicontrast papers respond to filters, you can make your own conclusion. One caveat, if you use single contrast papers, you can use this stain as a way to control highlight detail. Getting the pink stain to hold evenly over large areas of the film and be stable (staying evenly pink) for a long time has been something I have not successfully experimented with. Fresh fix and a longer wash time is the trick to clearing the negatives. I have been processing T-Max for a really long time (roll and sheet), and have noticed that if it hasn't disappeared that re-fixing with fresh fixer and re-rinsing does the trick. Kind of keeps it simple too without having to use other solutions.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Fix 10 minutes in FRESH fix, not 5.

In a rapid or conventional fixer? When I used to use tmax I found that fresh rapid, non hardening fixer for 5 minutes was enough, followed by a 5 to 10 minute soak in water.