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Alan Rabe
15-Nov-2006, 07:40
I was looking at the bergger site checking on their paper and noticed they have a film BPF200. 200 asa with a nice linear reciprocity curve. And it comes in all flat sheet sizes.
I was wondering if anyone has any experience with it.

steve simmons
15-Nov-2006, 07:58
This is Gordon Hutching's favorite film. It works very well in PMK and possibly the other staining develpers as well.

steve simmons

Eric Biggerstaff
15-Nov-2006, 09:18
I have used some and developed it in Rodinal 1+25, it is nice film. As Steve mentions, I understand that it is a favorite with many of the staining developer fans.

Alan Rabe
15-Nov-2006, 11:13
Thanks Eric, Steve. I have been thinking of changing from Tri-X. Kodak keeps changing it and who knows when they will stop making it altogether.

Jay DeFehr
15-Nov-2006, 12:09
It's a stop slower than TX, and doesn't enjoy anything like TX's expansion/contraction potential, or manufacturing quality and consistency. Still, it's a nice film in its own right, and capable of excellent results. I use it, along with Fote/J&C Classic 400 in 3x4, develop in 510-Pyro and contact print on Azo.

Jay

sanking
15-Nov-2006, 16:05
It's a stop slower than TX, and doesn't enjoy anything like TX's expansion/contraction potential, or manufacturing quality and consistency. Still, it's a nice film in its own right, and capable of excellent results. I use it, along with Fote/J&C Classic 400 in 3x4, develop in 510-Pyro and contact print on Azo.

Jay

Bergger BPF200 is the same film as JandC 200. What Jay says is about right on. It has wide latitude with both exposure and development, and stains heavily, and its real EFS is about 100, not 200, though age of the emulsion can have a big impact ion film speed. For silver printers it should satisify all needs.

However, the limited expansion capability of this film, along with the heavy B+F stain you get with all of the staining developers, makes it less than optimum for alternative processes where you need a lot of contrast. In low contrast situations, for example, it is virtually impossible to get sufficient contrast from this film with alternative processes without resorting to special developing procedures, such as the semi-stand procedures used by Steve Sherman. I limit my use of Bergger BPF 200/JandC 200 to high and medium contrast scenes, and never use it in scenes where a lot of zonal expansion is needed.

Sandy King

steve simmons
15-Nov-2006, 16:16
Gordon uses it for silver printng and has for years. He is also a big fan of it in PMK. He feels that it works well for normal, plus and minus. If you are interested, or potentially interested in using the Bergger film in PMK get a copy of Gordon's book The Book of Pyro. It is the reigning authority on Pyro. There is also an article in the Free Articles section of

www.viewcamera.com

on staining developers.

The book is available from Bostick and Sullivan and Photographer's Formulary.


steve simmons

Jay DeFehr
15-Nov-2006, 16:56
Steve,

I consider The Book of Pyro a good primer on the subject, but fairly specific to PMK. Much has happened in the world of staining developers since its writing, and it is mostly outdated except as it applies to PMK. Maybe you should have called it "the reigning authority on PMK", instead of "the reigning authority on pyro", which is a stretch, to say the least.

Jay

steve simmons
15-Nov-2006, 17:19
I disagree, stain works as stain as it has for 100 years. But if people want a more generic source of info the article in the Sept/Oct 06 issue of View Camera is a good one. This is in the Free Articles section of

www.viewcamera.com

steve

Don Hutton
15-Nov-2006, 17:42
"stain works as stain as it has for 100 years
www.viewcamera.com

steve

Wow - that's about as sensible as suggesting that automobiles work as automobiles have done for the past 100 years. Staining developers have actually come quite a long way in the past 20 years, but you wouldn't know, because you'd far rather keep your head where it is (and I have my suspicions...) rather than look around.

steve simmons
15-Nov-2006, 17:51
I probably know more about staining devlopers than you ever will. And lets keep the personal remarks out of this forum. Since I was involved in the early testing of PMKback in the early 80s as well as having used ABC and W2D2 I am well aware of how staining developers work. Two years ago I also worked with one of King's many formulae. Hutchings' book is the best modern resource on Pyro and the article we did is the best overall generic article on staining devlopers published in many years. I have watched the evolution of staining developers since1978 an used many of them

BTW, this thread is about Bergger film. I smply mentioned PMK, and other staining developers as info related to Bergger film.

steve simmons

Michael Kadillak
15-Nov-2006, 17:51
I tested this film after I read Gordon's View Camera Article touting Bergger 200 as the modern version for Super XX. After plotting the curves using D76 and pyro (PMK) I arrived at the conclusion that Gordon was in fact correct when the scene photographed was normal and the paper printed on was silver.

Unfortunately, the film has a distinct propensity of flattening out and not building density beyond a certain point with increased development. This has an effect on the results for photographers that are working in flat lighting and are desiring a higher density range necessary for Azo Grade 2 or with a number of the alternative processes. HP5 tested similarly.

There are several alternatives that work like a champ and do not exhibit these characteristics such as FP4, PL100 and T Max 400.

Cheers!

Don Hutton
15-Nov-2006, 17:59
I probably know more about staining devlopers than you ever will.
steve simmonsYou may well do Steve - and there's no doubt in my mind that you think that you know more than just about everyone on the subject apart from Gordon; however, your statement was still dumb. I'm very aware of the flawed comparison that you published of PMK and Pyrocat HD where you published a blatant lie about comparing prints when in fact you later admitted on this forum that you didn't (you compared scans). I certainly don't think it was "landmark work in Pyro" by any means. This forum is in fact a public one, not a View Camera Magazine Forum - I'll post what I like here, not what you choose; obviously within the guidelines (which you frequently flagrantly ignore). If you really think nothing has happened of any consequence in the evolution of Pyro developers in the past 100 years, I'm not going to attempt to change that - however I'll state that it is a dumb statement and contrary to the opinion of everyone I know personally who actually use Pyro developers on a daily basis (as opposed to publishing and trolling forums).

steve simmons
15-Nov-2006, 18:07
Before you take me to task on my test go back and read the article. I scanned negs done in PMK and one of King's formulae.It was a valid test. Each developer was tested for its EI and dev time for a vc paper without a filter which is approx the same as a grade 2 filter. The negs were then scanned and compared for shadow detail, mid value tones, and high value separation. We have been over this way too many times and for you to bring it up shows how bankrupt you are in your inability to stay on topic. You are not sharing any info on either the film in question or staining developer. As I said above

"BTW, this thread is about Bergger film. I simply mentioned PMK, and other staining developers as info related to Bergger film."

Now, if you have real life experience with the film or a staining developer as it applies to this film we can continue the discussion. If all you are going to do is bait and chum I am done.


steve simmons

Don Hutton
15-Nov-2006, 18:14
Before you take me to task on my test go back and read the article. I scanned negs done in PMK and one of King's formulae.It was a valid test. Each developer was tested for its EI and dev time for a vc paper without a filter which is approx the same as a grade 2 filter. The negs were then scanned and compared for shadow detail, mid value tones, and high value separation. We have been over this way too many times and for you to bring it up shows how bankrupt you are in your inabilty to stay on the current topic. That article and test does not have anything to do with this thread.

steve simmons

You claimed to have worked with one of Sandy King's Pyro developers (a recent development which you completely discarded the significane of). I've read your "test" several times and you state in black and white that you compared prints, not scans on a screen. You still don't realize the importance of that deceit.... You claimed to be extremely knowledgable on Pyro developers and the recent developments. The only brief experience you seem to have had with recent developments of Pyro developers seems to have been your own flawed test - not exactly "honors material' I don't think.

Don Hutton
15-Nov-2006, 18:29
Now, if you have real life experience with the film or a staining developer as it applies to this film we can continue the discussion. If all you are going to do is bait and chum I am done.


steve simmons

My experience with Bergger echos Michael's experience - I tested it in Pyrocat HD and found it to be a little short on expansion potential for a lot of situations with alt processes. I do have some very nice negs from it which were shot in medium to high contrast situations, but I personally think that there are better choices available - faster, more development flexibility than BPF200 (I found half a box of 12x20 at the bottom of my freezer last week - I sold my 12x20 about a year ago!).

Bill_1856
15-Nov-2006, 19:22
I don't know Steve Simmons, but is there no way that he can be limited to one post per thread? Every time I see his name appear I cringe, knowing that it's probably going to divert the thread with unnecessary arguement, and he always seems to think that he has to have the last word. It is really irritating.

Bill_1856
15-Nov-2006, 20:39
My response to a private communication from Mr. Simmons:

Dear Mr. Simmons,
I don't know or care whether you're the world's greatest authority on any particular subject, I am weary of the pissing contests you so often seem to incite in the Forums. Can you not learn to just let things go, like an adult?

Jay DeFehr
15-Nov-2006, 21:45
I appologize for my part in this needless distraction. Steve has a right to his opinion of Hutchings' book, and I didn't mean to impugn either. The Book of Pyro is an excellent resource for those interested in pyro developers, especially PMK, and there aren't many competing resources, so I'm grateful for it.

Regarding Bergger/Forte 200, I might have overstated my point there, as well. Forte 200 is a very good film, capable of excellent results, and only compares unfavorably to the very best films, like the legendary Tri-X. I have no trouble using it for portraits in flat light to be printed on Azo, which is not an extreme test of its potential, but beyond the needs of most silver printers. If you decide to use it, I hope that above all, you enjoy yourself. Good luck.

Jay

Eric Biggerstaff
15-Nov-2006, 21:52
You know, this is stupid.

Steve did not jump on anyone in this thread, and I notice that there are generally a couple of people who like to jump on Steve everytime he makes a statement.

Allen had a question on Bergger film, Steve gave him some information.

It was not Steve who implied that someone had his head up his ass. And posting the private communications shows no class what so ever.

Despite the fact that I write the occasional article for VC and may been seen by some as being biased, I will continue to defend Steve in cases such as this. He did not start this and Allen thanked him for the input. Any "pissing contest" on this thread was not started by Steve.

When people get jumped on in an open forum like this, they will come back swinging. It is not fair to the person who posted the origional thread, it is not fair to those of us wanting to read and learn, and it is certainly not fair to the person being jumped on.

If you have a concern with Steve or anyone else, then send them a private message and keep it private - show a little class.

scott_6029
16-Nov-2006, 01:50
A suggestion for film posting questions....and responses. Like how do you like film b?

I have found that if you are not clear on: a) film developer b) SBR of scenes and c) type of printing (silver, azo, platinum - you can be way off) d) development method (tray, drum, semi stand, etc.) and TASTE (i.e do you like contrasty, warm, or 'softer' prints....of which taste may even be different for different subject matter - (landscape, portrait, etc.) so, maybe we should build in some guidelines.

Thus the variety of answers I see on these forums for 'film reviews'.

I think Michael provided some nice insight - can't build density for alt. process for normal or certainly low sbr scenes with the developers mentioned. So for him it didn't work as well as others.

Some posters thought the film could work on portraits in flat light, etc.

There is a lot going on rather than the simple - it works great in dev. x....at x degrees for x minutes. etc./

Why not build in some guidelines?

Alan Rabe
16-Nov-2006, 05:39
Thanks folks for all the info. As I said I was looking for a replacement for Tri-X and have come to the conclusion that BPF200 isn't it.:cool:

BrianShaw
16-Nov-2006, 08:19
Alan,

I started out using Bergger 200 as a replacement for Plus-X (sheet). After using it in both sheet and roll film, I'm not disappointed, but didn't get what I want. So now using FP-4+. As a Tri-X "replacement" (even though I never was much of a high-speed film buff) I use HP-5+. That being said, I also have been using Tri-X lately and find it quite acceptable.

Brian

Alan Rabe
16-Nov-2006, 08:39
Brian, I agree and love Tri-X. My concern is with Kodak. So I was just looking to see if there was another film that was similar. I am also looking for a replacement for Brilliant. Have been using Kentmere Fineprint and find it a beautiful paper but it does have a limited contrast. I haven't seen it as a problem yet as I do have quite contrasty negatives but I was just looking at Berrger's paper, since they made the original Brilliant, and came across thier film and was just wondering.

BrianShaw
16-Nov-2006, 09:35
My concern is with Kodak. So I was just looking to see if there was another film that was similar.

I don't want to twist your thread too much, but what's the concern? Probably not quality. If it is longevity in the market, I suppose you have a valid concern. But if we don't buy, they can't keep producing... right? I, too, have been expanding my film horizons and trying other films... just to be ready for any unexpected market alterations.

But I'm also reluctant to draw a line in the sand and declare one (Ilford) over the other (Kodak). So currently I walk the line; sit on the fence; vascillate; or whatever other expression for being indecisive you can think of.

Both companies have been good to me and I hope they both survive and ocntinue to serve our needs. Although, now that I think about it (I've been repressing these memories)... Kodak did kill Super-XX... and then my most favorite film, Plus-X in sheets.

Good luck in your quest!

p.s. Not long ago I heard an off-handed comment from someone that US Federal law (which I never looked up but it is probably somewhere accessable by the public) requires physical, specifically film, archiving of official US Government images... even if they are digitally captured. I also heard in the same conversation that Kodak is the film provider. If the story is credible, that should keep them in business for quite a while, shouldn't it??

Jay DeFehr
16-Nov-2006, 13:45
Steve Simmons,

clean out your mailbox, I have a PM for you.

Jay

steve simmons
16-Nov-2006, 13:56
I just did

steve

Michael Kadillak
16-Nov-2006, 14:10
I cannot help but think of a similar set of conditions when the Weston's, Strands and Adam's of the world were caught in a similar "transitional" period from materials that they learned with early on in their photographic careers to the new materials that were thrust upon them and the subsequent phasing out of the familiar.

The point that I want to make is that we as photographers wheither we made images in the 40's 60's or currently in 2006 are challenged to make the best images we can with what we have access to. Secondly, the only way that a film or paper becomes user friendly is for people to embrace it with open optimism.

As the contributor "Photo Engineer" stated with his wealth of experience (and I am taking some literary liberties paraphrasing his comments as I remember them) - I have made photographs with current materials that are sharper and as contrasty as ones I made with Super XX many years ago.

Just my $0.02







I don't want to twist your thread too much, but what's the concern? Probably not quality. If it is longevity in the market, I suppose you have a valid concern. But if we don't buy, they can't keep producing... right? I, too, have been expanding my film horizons and trying other films... just to be ready for any unexpected market alterations.

But I'm also reluctant to draw a line in the sand and declare one (Ilford) over the other (Kodak). So currently I walk the line; sit on the fence; vascillate; or whatever other expression for being indecisive you can think of.

Both companies have been good to me and I hope they both survive and ocntinue to serve our needs. Although, now that I think about it (I've been repressing these memories)... Kodak did kill Super-XX... and then my most favorite film, Plus-X in sheets.

Good luck in your quest!

p.s. Not long ago I heard an off-handed comment from someone that US Federal law (which I never looked up but it is probably somewhere accessable by the public) requires physical, specifically film, archiving of official US Government images... even if they are digitally captured. I also heard in the same conversation that Kodak is the film provider. If the story is credible, that should keep them in business for quite a while, shouldn't it??

Scott Davis
16-Nov-2006, 14:12
Give the Fomapan 200 a try if you want another alternative. Beautiful film, especially in sheet sizes. I have gotten excellent results with it for printing Alt Process prints with Pyrocat HD 1:1:100, in a Jobo Expert drum, exposed at ISO 100.

Jay DeFehr
16-Nov-2006, 14:39
Scott,

I'm surprised you're only getting EI 100 from Foma 200 when developed for alt printing. I get a solid EI 200 when developed in 510-Pyro for printing on VC paper. I really like this film.

Jay

Scott Davis
16-Nov-2006, 15:05
Jay- I'm not ONLY getting 100. That is what my testing bore out as a good working speed for this film. For silver, I think I probably could get away with 200, but I felt the negs were a bit thin for good pt/pd prints that way. In every other way, I really like it though- nice smooth creamy tonalities, sharp details. It was my film of choice for my Argentina trip (www.theflyingcamera.com/Argentina.htm ... please ignore the amateurish page design), that got me accepted into the Alt Process juried exhibit at Viewpoint Gallery in Sacramento. The image in question is the Ficus Tree, Buenos Aires (2nd or 3rd from the bottom of the page).

Kirk Gittings
16-Nov-2006, 15:39
Nice images by the way.

BrianShaw
16-Nov-2006, 15:42
As the contributor "Photo Engineer" stated with his wealth of experience (and I am taking some literary liberties paraphrasing his comments as I remember them) - I have made photographs with current materials that are sharper and as contrasty as ones I made with Super XX many years ago.

I totally agree with Ron's sentiment. It still doesn't keep me from pineing over the old favorites. Truth be told... if FID ever becoems a reality, I will still be making photographic images - evolution isn't much of a problem unless one fights it.

Jay DeFehr
16-Nov-2006, 15:48
Scott,

your "amateurish" page design works just fine for me. Your logic, however, is lost on me. Pt/pd prints require negs of higher contrast and density range than silver papers do, and the greater development should give higher film speeds than silver, not lower. For a CI of .7, suitable for pt/pd, I get an EI of 250++ with Foma 200 and 510-Pyro. Maybe you're overexposing your film?

Jay