New article by Ernest Purdum: Shutters - History and Use

[QT Luong]

A new article by Ernest Purdum,
Shutters - History and Use (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/shutters-history-and-use.html) has been posted. Please feel free to comment here.

[Shen45]

Thanks for the information Ernest. A most enjoyable read. I have just stepped back in time using a Veliostigmat [12"] and a Verito [9] in Studio shutters. One is really modern and has a cable release whereas the Verito is a bulb release.

[Ole Tjugen]

Very nicely done.

One minor niggle though: Compur shutters were made in sizes 00 to 2 and Compound in 3 to 5, and not 00 to 3 and 4&5 as the article states.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Very nicely done.

One minor niggle though: Compur shutters were made in sizes 00 to 2 and Compound in 3 to 5, and not 00 to 3 and 4&5 as the article states.

Ole,

I have two Schneider lenses in Compur 3 shutters. There is currently a 240mm Symmar-S in a Compur 3 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Schneider-Symmar-S-View-Camera-Lens-240mm-f5-6_W0QQitemZ260052364233) listed on eBay (the words "Compur 3" are clearly visible on the shutter in the photos). Both of my lenses are from the late 1970s, but I know Compur 3 shutters continued to be made through the late 1980s, possibly early 1990s.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

And, of course, there was also the Syncro Compur Electronic 5FS.

Kerry

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Thanks to Ernest for this superb article. A reference document indeed !

About the question of modern large format shutters, to what Ernest says :
Copal, and perhaps Prontor, are almost all that are left.
we should add : in terms of 100% mechanical shutters with 0% electricity.
And the Packard shutter is still made !

As far as electro-mechanical shutters are concerned, Rollei / Franke & Heidecke fabricates a #0 and a #1 for any kind of large format lenses needing #0 or #1 sizes. As far as I remember, the Prontor Magnetic might still be available frome the famous Calmbach factory (Bob S. !! help !!)
Schneider-Kreuznach has developed its own electrical shutter as well, and there is, or used to be, a Horseman ISS, not for International Space Station but most probably Intelligent Shutter System.

About historical references, you'd be amazed by the number of companies that used to fabricate shutters in Germany in the past, as mentioned in this book :

Deutsche Photooptik von A - Z. (Erweiterte Neuauflage von ""150 Jahre Photooptik in Deutschland 1849 - 1999"") Thiele, Hartmut München 2004
The book is self-published by the author but can be found at the Lindemanns bookstore in Stuttgart for example.

[Ole Tjugen]

Ole,

I have two Schneider lenses in Compur 3 shutters. There is currently a 240mm Symmar-S in a Compur 3 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Schneider-Symmar-S-View-Camera-Lens-240mm-f5-6_W0QQitemZ260052364233) listed on eBay (the words "Compur 3" are clearly visible on the shutter in the photos). Both of my lenses are from the late 1970s, but I know Compur 3 shutters continued to be made through the late 1980s, possibly early 1990s.

Kerry

That's correct Kerry, but my point was that as long as the Compounds were made there were no Compur #3's. Until the "new" Compur shutters were introduced, size 3, 4 and 5 were Compounds and all Compurs were 00 to 2.

[Bill_1856]

Can anyone comment on the "Worshing Light Counter?" Apparently some sort of lens shade/shutter used by Edward Weston, at least on his California and the West trip.

[Dan Fromm]

Ole, I have a tiny 130/6.3 CZJ Tessar, made late 1911 or early 1912, in an equally tiny Compound. Also a slightly larger 5 3/8"/6.3 B&L Ser. IIb Tessar, probably made in 1914, in a slightly larger Compound. Will measure the cells' ODs tonight and report. Whatever their sizes may be, both of these shutters are considerably smaller than the Compound #3 you're thinking of.

Ernest, if accurately timed long exposures are needed Ilex, now Melles Griot, electric shutters are an option. Georg Holderied, see http://www.chemie.unibas.ch/~holder/ , has published a design for a digital shutter timer that controls them. I believe that the original Ilex control boxes used RC circuits to time them.

FWIW, some oscilloscope cameras have electronically timed shutters. A few, not many, are easily adapted to photographic use. Some time ago I bought a Coleman Systems scope camera that contained a real Ilex #3 Electronic and control circuitry. I haven't yet used the shutter seriously, but have verified that it functions and checked speed. It runs very slow at all marked speeds, not clear whether the timing circuits aren't quite correct, the blades are gummy (but they look clean), or the spring that snaps the shutter closed when the solenoid is depowered is weak.

Cheers,

Dan

[JasonC]

Ole and Dan, I think compound shutters were available in sizes from #00 to #5.

http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/zeiss/p61.html
http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/goerzcat/compounda.html

And the Worsching Counter Light Trap.

http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/meyerc/p49.html

[Bill_1856]

Thank you, JasonC. I've wondered about the Worsching ever since first reading of it in a Modern Photography article about Lens & Repro in about 1975. Thanks!

[Ole Tjugen]

Not to be argumentative, but...

Yes, the Compounds were made in all sizes around 1910. The the Compurs took over, and were the model of choise for sizes 00 to 2 for the best part of the century - at least 60 years. In this period the Compounds were still made in sizes 3 (two versions), 4, and 5 (two versions).

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

That's correct Kerry, but my point was that as long as the Compounds were made there were no Compur #3's. Until the "new" Compur shutters were introduced, size 3, 4 and 5 were Compounds and all Compurs were 00 to 2.

Ole,

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. From your quote: "One minor niggle though: Compur shutters were made in sizes 00 to 2 and Compound in 3 to 5, and not 00 to 3 and 4&5 as the article states.", it sounded like you were saying there was no such thing as a Compur 3. Obviously there was, but as you say, it came later.

Kerry

[Arne Croell]

Hi Ernest, a really nice overview, I think you touched all the important points. A small correction for your next version: That old German behind the lens shutter you mention is called "Grundner", not "Grundmann". Pretty rare, I have seen them on the German ebay about once or twice a year.

[Jay Wolfe]

Nice article. Another correction: it's www.flutotscamerarepair.com/ --with an "s" on flutot.

[Ernest Purdum]

Arne and Jay, thanks for the corrections.

[anton orlov]

Just stumbled upon this article and reply thread by Ernst Purdum. Rest In Peace Mr. Purdum!
I happened to have stumbled upon his estate after he passed away and I bought a good amount of stuff that he collected such as shutters and lenses. I wish I would have been a little more knowledgeable at that very moment because now I know I passed up some amazing items there that i could have had for 1/10th the real value or less. The thing that really made me sad is that the store wanted to throw away Mr. Purdum's hand-written (with parts of it typed) manuscript - luckily I got it jut in time. I don't know what to do with it though - I feel it should be published somehow, but I have no idea how. If anyone wants to chime in on this I would be happy to listen to any ideas. I'm in San Diego, CA.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Yes, his manuscripts should be preserved!

Let us put our heads together on this!
.

[John Kasaian]

Perhaps offer it as a download like the Vade Mecum for historic lenses?
No doubt it would need some vetting---perhaps an MFA candidate might take it on as a project in lieu of writing a thesis? There are several educators on board here who might be able to hook you up with a motivated graduate student.

[BrianShaw]

As we discussed before, I'd be interested in helping make the information available... but still not able/interested in paying lots of money to buy the manuscripts.

[Ralph Barker]

Just stumbled upon this article and reply thread by Ernst Purdum. Rest In Peace Mr. Purdum!
I happened to have stumbled upon his estate after he passed away and I bought a good amount of stuff that he collected such as shutters and lenses. I wish I would have been a little more knowledgeable at that very moment because now I know I passed up some amazing items there that i could have had for 1/10th the real value or less. The thing that really made me sad is that the store wanted to throw away Mr. Purdum's hand-written (with parts of it typed) manuscript - luckily I got it jut in time. I don't know what to do with it though - I feel it should be published somehow, but I have no idea how. If anyone wants to chime in on this I would be happy to listen to any ideas. I'm in San Diego, CA.

Q.T. Luong, the owner of this forum, curates the LFPF Home page (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/), which might be the appropriate place to make the manuscript available. You can contact him via http://www.terragalleria.com/.

It may be necessary to get written permission from the estate to publish the manuscript, but I suspect that as long as it is offered to the public at no charge, they might not object.

[Steven Tribe]

I had a quick read of this introduction to shutters this morning. Reads very much like a wet Sunday afternoon project with at least one very bad mistake. Perhaps a revision with illustrations is called for?

[IanG]

I had a quick read of this introduction to shutters this morning. Reads very much like a wet Sunday afternoon project with at least one very bad mistake. Perhaps a revision with illustrations is called for?

The lack of illustrations in most of the articles is frustrating in this day & age, most would be greatly improved with revision to include relevant images - photographs or diagrams.

The shutter article is one where this would help enormously, also it could do with better discussion of focal plane shutters. There's a huge difference between the clumsy Graflex shutters with their long multi slit curtains and the more sophisticated self capping European shutters with two curtains.

Ian

[Tim Meisburger]

Sound like volunteers:rolleyes:

[Ralph Barker]

In general, articles on the Home Page were written, without compensation, for the purpose of sharing the information (and the author's expertise) with the LF community.

While I agree that most of the articles on the Home Page would benefit from additional illustration, the LFPF does not "own" the articles. The copyrights remain with the original authors, who have simply given us permission to publish the material here. As such, we do not have the authority to make revisions to the articles, absent additional permission from the authors. Obviously, that becomes problematic in the case of a deceased author.

Volunteers could, however, submit illustrations or photos as part of a separate addendum article. Such efforts should be approved in advance by discussing the proposal with Q. T. Luong via e-mail or PM.

[IanG]

In general, articles on the Home Page were written, without compensation, for the purpose of sharing the information (and the author's expertise) with the LF community.

While I agree that most of the articles on the Home Page would benefit from additional illustration, the LFPF does not "own" the articles. The copyrights remain with the original authors, who have simply given us permission to publish the material here. As such, we do not have the authority to make revisions to the articles, absent additional permission from the authors. Obviously, that becomes problematic in the case of a deceased author.

Volunteers could, however, submit illustrations or photos as part of a separate addendum article. Such efforts should be approved in advance by discussing the proposal with Q. T. Luong via e-mail or PM.

Your points are spot on. It would be great if some of the writers could update their articles with images and re-submit them. In the case of the few where the authors have passed away you make a good suggestion.

Ian

[Dan Fromm]

I am not an attorney and I'm especially not an intellectual property attorney but for one of my projects I've had to review what the U. S. Copyright Office says about derivative works. Short version, derivative works include revised versions. The holder of the original copyright also holds copyright to derivative works.

With this in mind it isn't obvious that Ralph's objections to revising text, including adding illustrations, amount to anything.

I agree with Mr. Tribe's comments, think that they apply to many of this site's FAQs.

[Steven Tribe]

Sound like volunteers:rolleyes:


Perhaps the way forward is to supplement with more detailed shorter articles on sub-sections?

This would be more do-able and more likely to attract volunteers. I doubt whether there is any one person who could cover the whole field, without doing a lot of research.

I would have thought that the following could be worthy of independent articles (just off the top of my head though!):

Gravity /Spring Gullotine shutters.
Early clockwork shutters.
Early FP shutters.
Single curtain FP shutters
Double curtain FP shutters.
Front mounted TP and later curtain shutters.
American shutters with mounted lens cells.
Compur and Compound.
Wooden pneumatic Shutters (Guerry and Grundner). I would like to have a go at this one!
Simple front mounted shutters (Luc, Zettor etc.).

Perhaps the separate articles could include info about reliability and repairs (for the more simple types)? I think that earlyphotography.uk now has a section on shutters which I need to check how comprehensive it is so we don't meddle in something which is already covered.

[IanG]

The Earlyphotography website is rather comprehensive, yes there will be gaps but I doubt there's much else if anything like it and it keeps expanding. The site catalogues early equipment etc but doesn't provide a history.

Ian

[anton orlov]

If anyone is interested I have the manuscript for what I assume was a book that Ernst Purdum was writing prior to his passing. I got it from his estate. Since I don't check into here too often better to email me at orlovphoto@gmail.com

[angusparker]

I just wrote a short blog post on the Compound 5 and comparing large shutters for mounting barrel lenses: less history and more of a why and how to. Plus it has pictures! I hope I have the data right. Let me know if you see something incorrect.

http://www.angusparkerphoto.com/blog/2015/6/compound-5

[Dan Fromm]

Gus, there are industrial Compound #5s with no diaphragm. You should mention them so that people who want to put their lenses in shutter will be aware of them. You should also mention front mounting and point out that mounting the shutter in front of the lens can be preferable to mounting the lens in front of the shutter when the lens' barrel is wide enough to obstruct access to the shutter's controls.

[angusparker]

Gus, there are industrial Compound #5s with no diaphragm. You should mention them so that people who want to put their lenses in shutter will be aware of them. You should also mention front mounting and point out that mounting the shutter in front of the lens can be preferable to mounting the lens in front of the shutter when the lens' barrel is wide enough to obstruct access to the shutter's controls.

Great input - will do

[premortho]

The lack of illustrations in most of the articles is frustrating in this day & age, most would be greatly improved with revision to include relevant images - photographs or diagrams.

The shutter article is one where this would help enormously, also it could do with better discussion of focal plane shutters. There's a huge difference between the clumsy Graflex shutters with their long multi slit curtains and the more sophisticated self capping European shutters with two curtains.

IanClumsy Graphlex shutters? What is clumsy about it? It works, and what is more important these days, they work with no attention for at least fifty years. I've owned five Speed Graphics, and one Graflex, and all of their focal plane shutters worked. My oldest Speed Graphic was made in 1919. The focal plane shutter was still working as late as 2007, when some vandals burned my house down,with the Speeder inside. The engineering rule of thumb is that for every step up in sophistication, reliability and/or product useful life decreases as the square of the increase in sophistication. Packard shutters are also "clumsy". Many of them have never seen the inside of a camera repair shop, and some of them are over 100 years old.

[IanG]

Clumsy Graphlex shutters? What is clumsy about it? It works, and what is more important these days, they work with no attention for at least fifty years. I've owned five Speed Graphics, and one Graflex, and all of their focal plane shutters worked. My oldest Speed Graphic was made in 1919. The focal plane shutter was still working as late as 2007, when some vandals burned my house down,with the Speeder inside. The engineering rule of thumb is that for every step up in sophistication, reliability and/or product useful life decreases as the square of the increase in sophistication. Packard shutters are also "clumsy". Many of them have never seen the inside of a camera repair shop, and some of them are over 100 years old.

That doesn't mean the Graflex shutters aren't clumsy in their design, they are and also quite crude compared to the more sophisticated self capping European focal plane shutters of the same era. That simple crudeness does mean they are easy to fix but they are nowhere near as smooth as the Thornton Pickard focal plane shutters in Ruby Reflex cameras where the shutter and mirror box is a complete unit.

I have 2 Speed Graphics (both restored) and also a Graflex Compact Reflex, and have restored 3 or 4 for other people. I've also restored British and German Focal plane shutters so I'm speaking with experience and can make a valid comparison.

http://lostlabours.co.uk/photography/cameras/images/ruby-14sm.jpg

This particular shutter was damaged and the curtains torn after the camera had been dropped and someone tried to use it, part of the frame holding the shutter had been shattered it was actually an easy repair

http://lostlabours.co.uk/photography/cameras/images/ruby-17sm.jpg

Ian

[linhofbiker]

Were Compur shutters licensed to Japan in the 1930's? I have a Hexar Ser.1 1:4.5 f=13.5cm in a K T I - TIYOKO shutter that is a copy of the Compur shutter. The lens came from a 1937 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 Military Lily with sheet film back. I had it cleaned and it works great.