Tell me about field cameras

[Steve H]

All,
Im getting to the point where my travels are taking me further, and carrying around 40lbs of Sinar is holding me back (rock climbing with it poses a challenge..). So Im thinking of getting a field camera that will easily fit into a backpack.
Im sure there aren't any that will use the same lens board as the sinar (right ?), so that isn't much of an issue. I want 4x5 format, and something that will use regular film holders. Realistically speaking, I'll take durability over weight, and I don't think I'll need more than say, 10 degrees of swing, and 15 degrees of tilt. Rise I don't think I'd need anything more than say...20mm. 12" of bellows should suffice.
I've been looking at the crown/speed graphics, and some of the regular field cameras. I'd prefer metal (or thoughts on the Toyo CF material ?) over wood.
Lets put the price (on the used market) at $700 or less for the body and one lens board.

Thanks !

[Ed Richards]

A member just listed a Toyo yesterday that would be perfect. Check the FS section.

[Frank Petronio]

Not so fast:

http://www.glennview.com/sinar.htm

HALFBREED SINAR/GLENNVIEW CAMERA

The Sinar modular system is extensive, but some of us are never satisfied. I wanted a compact and lightweight yaw free camera with self-braking movements that accepted Sinar lensboards. The Sinar Alpina or A1 came close, but wasn't quite there, so I designed and built my own. It is offered w/o back, bellows or lensboard because likely you already have those items. The camera is less than 9.5" tall by 7.5" wide. The camera is 2.5# when mounted on the 6" rail. The camera is 3# when mounted on the 18" rail. A Sinar GG back and bellows will add 1.5#. Such a lightweight camera will allow you to use a lighter weight tripod. $500.

There was also a lightweight Sinar adaptation that was made by a car photographer in South Afrcia in the 1990s and SK Grimes imported it. But he passed away and I never heard anymore about it, now the website is gone too.

But I think the concept is a great idea. Kind of like a hybrid Sinar with an old pre-F Arca rail and function carriers, combining the best of both systems.

[Michael Gudzinowicz]

Steve,

Check the equipment reviews listed on the home page for a somewhat detailed overview of most of what's available. Used prices may be found on auction sites and the web. It would be very easy to throw a list of cameras at you that meet your specs, however it wouldn't be as informative. I will add that you'll find a Graphic annoying if you're accustomed to using a Sinar.

Mike.

[Ron Marshall]

Have a look at Karry Thalmann's review of the Toho.

The only downside is that it breaks down into two separate parts for storage. But set-up takes less than a minute. The parts are well made and sturdy.

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm

[Steve H]

Thanks for the info thus far Gentlemen.
Frank - the sinar idea seems OK; but I would prefer something that boxes into itself. Ditto for the Toho.
I want something that could live in a backpack, along with some other items that would be needed for the day.

[Robert Ley]

Steve, Check out the Super Graphic. It has all the front movements that you might need, 12" of bellows, bullet proof and tough and all for well under $700. For $700 you could probably get the camera plus a couple of light lenses to boot. Check out this web site:http://www.cameraquest.com/supergrp.htm

[Bill_1856]

Technika, Technika, Technika. Just pay the extra money and quit worrying about it.

[Brian Ellis]

The standard recommendations for a field camera with the characteristics you describe and in your $700 price range are probably Tachihara ($600 new), Shen Hao (about the same), and maybe a used Wista, Zone VI, or Toyo. Since durability is a major concern you might search around for one of the metal Wistas or Toyos though they, as well as a Shen Hao, will be a little heavier than you might like. I'm not sure the metal cameras would be under $700 but I don't think they'd be far off.

FWIW my suggestion would be a Tachihara but there's so much personal preference involved with cameras that rather than urging you to buy it I'd only suggest you take a look and see what you think. There are detailed specs for the Tachiharas on the MidWest Photo Exchange web site and there's an informal review on my web site.

Questions like this always end up eliciting at least five or six different recommendations from people with their pet cameras so you'll likely have lots to choose from.

[Frank Petronio]

FWIW there was a clean Linhof Technika on eBay yesterday that sold quickly at a Buy It Now of $850. Then it is a simple matter of getting a Sinar to Linhof adapter lensboard...

The slightly heavier cameras are a bit more forgiving of damage and usually have easier controls to manipulate, so don't get overly concerned about the weight... I used to through my Technika into a backpack and let it bounce around in the trunk -- pretty rugged compared to a Tachihara.

[John Kasaian]

How light you want to go? With a Speed or Crown Graphic you don't need a tripod in handheld mode. If you require a tripod look at Gowlands(monorail) the new Argentiums or the old Nagaokas(self boxing styles)

[Steve H]

Thanks again. I would prefer durability over light-weight.

[Steve H]

So...
At this point (window shopping) Im going to try to look at these models in person:

Toyo 45CF - This seems like it may be the most durable of the group, although composits sometimes aren't the most shock-resistant. I am sure that on the used market I can find one for around $400-$500 range.

Tachihara 45 - Im not really a fan of the looks, but we'll see what its like to actually use. $595 new.

Shen Hao HZX 4x5 IIA - This might be my favorite out of the bunch, shame its not completely metal...But I do like the blacked out controls, rear rise/swing etc. It also looks to fold up nicely. $595 new, however I will have to talk to a friend of mine who lives in ShangHai and see how much one can be gotten for there.

Super Graphic - this looks like it may be the most durable of the group. Im not a fan of the rangefinder, flash control, etc etc. But for something rough and tough, this may be the best option. I have yet to see some used market prices, but there's one on ebay right now for around $225 with a couple of days left.


Thanks again,
Steve

[Mark Stahlke]

Since nobody has asked this yet I will.
What are the minimum and maximum focal length lenses you want to use? Answer that question and then choose a camera that will accommodate them.

I vote for the Tachihara. It can handle lenses from 75mm to 300mm on flat lens boards. It folds up very small and it's light weight.

Cheers,
Mark

[Ken Lee]

Lets put the price (on the used market) at $700 or less for the body and one lens board.

I got my Wisner Technical Field used, for less than $700.

It has enough bellows draw to acommodate my Fujinon 450C at much closer than infinity, and let me focus a 240mm Fujinon A at 1:1.

Unless you're planning to climb mountains, it's the same basic size/weight as my old Tachihara, and extends further than my old ArcaSwiss Discovery. It is just as rigid too.

[Alan Rabe]

If it is durbility you want then a Zone VI is a good choice. I have been using one since 1989 and never had a problem. It has more than adequate movements for my needs, landscapes. Although it doesn't support shorter than 90mm with out a different bellows. But it does have a 22 inch bellows extension. They can be readily had on e-bay at any time.

[Eric Brody]

I am the member listing the Toyo Field 45A in the FS section. I am obviously biased but did use this camera for some time and made great images with it. I am selling it because for a milestone birthday, don't ask which one, I decided to get my dream camera, an Arca Field. It doesn't make any better photos, the lens does that, it's just what I've wanted for some time.

The Toyo is quite durable, metal does have some advantages over wood, and I believe reasonably light weight. I recall weighing it at about 5.5lb. You can look at my description in the ad and the referenced specs at the Toyo website. Please feel free to PM me with any specific questions if it sounds interesting to you. The price is negotiable and I have a bunch of lensboards as well, including a hard to find deeply recessed one. I'd be willing to make some concessions to the purchaser of the camera.

Thanks.

Eric

[Brian Ellis]

"I used to through my Technika into a backpack and let it bounce around in the trunk -- pretty rugged compared to a Tachihara."

I've owned two Technikas and a Tachihara. I don't abuse cameras but I don't treat them with kid gloves either. I never had any problems of any kind with the Tachihara in the three years or so that I used it. The Technikas have been another story - I've had them to Marflex at least five times for repairs probably totalling several thousand dollars. Twice the Technika V fell out of an open back pack as the pack was being lifted, a distance of a foot or two, onto a soft dirt path. Both times the camera landed on one of back knobs, both times the internal knob mechanism was damaged. Then there was the front standard release mechanism that stuck in position on the Master Technika so that I couldn't use front tilt. And then there was the front standard tilt locking mechanism on the Tech V that stopped locking. And there was the time the wind blew the tripod over and the back was destroyed.

As between a Tachihara and a Technika I'll take a Tachihara every time for durability. Technikas are great cameras and fortunately only one of the above five repairs was to the Master Technika but they're finely tuned, precision instruments with a lot of German over-engineering built in IMHO.

[squiress]

I found a Toyo 45 AX with three lens boards, changing bag, 10 film holders, two Calumet film holder bags, photo vest, cable release, Zone viewer all for $780 on Ebay. Sent my Toyo CF back (didn't really have a complaint, but the AX put it to shame). Patience might net you something there. Also have a Speed and two Crowns. If the Speed's shutter is in good shape, you can't find a better economical solution. I have been buying Wollensak barrel lenses and really have a nice, inexpensive and really durable setup. Finally, there's not much difference between the AX and A Toyo 45s. Both very solid.

Stew

[Peter Galea]

Technika. It's what your are looking for. Clamshell design. Hands down the finest.
A word of caution though, don' t drop it, then again don't drop your Rollex, and don't drive your BMW into curbs. :)

[CXC]

I have owned two of your candidates, a Super Graphic and a Shen-Hao.

IMHO the reasons to go Graphic are two: 1) price, and 2) rangefinder.

I was quite pleased with my SH, which I don't hesitate to recommend to anyone who is satisfied with its bellows length/compression. I traded up when I outgrew its short bellows.

In re: durability, do you have a history of dropping/abusing your equipment? If not, the biggest risks are in the backpack, and getting it in/out. Consider addressing this issue from the other, backpack, side: get/build a sleeve of styrofoam or packing bubbles or something, that you can slide the camera into, so it is protected when carried.

A general comment on price/saving money. There is quite a bit of sticker shock in entering the LF marketplace, which lead many of us to purchase low-end, old, or used. Later we decide that it is a false economy, and buy what we really want/need, at a much higher price (rationalizations can and will be found). A better way to save money would be to skip the first purchase, since you will make the second anyways.

[Steve H]

Mr Condit,
Thanks for the input. I am always very cautious with my cameras (perhaps overtly so...), but then again being somewhat fresh out of college - every penny still counts.
My main concern is just making sure that the camera will be OK strapped to my back over rough terrain.
As far as the graphic goes, I really don't ever see myself using the rangefinder. Over the last year I've gotten used to the groundglass, and even now I find the viewfinder of a 35mm 'restrictive' for some reason. Maybe its just me....

Thanks to all for their time. A friend of mine has a speedgraphic, so Im going to borrow it and see how I get along with it over the course of a weekend. At this point, Im between it, and the Shen Hao.

[Scott Davis]

Steve- the Shen will hold up just fine over rough terrain - I took mine hiking in high alpine desert, up extinct volcanos, shot with it on the beach in the salt spray and fog of San Francisco, and it is just fine. I managed to lose a locking nut off one standard once, in my studio. If you're back to the Philly/DC area sometime before you make your decision, and would like to try shooting with one, I'd be glad to make mine available for a day.

[Steve H]

Thanks Scott, I'll shoot you an email.

[walter23]

Technika, Technika, Technika. Just pay the extra money and quit worrying about it.

Cameras are pretty simple. I don't see the sense in paying a ton of money for one.

I just got a Shen Hao and I love it. It's not geared; you unlock a movement and just wiggle around until it's in the right place, then tighten it up. But I find it pretty easy to use. Short of dropping it onto concrete I don't think it's going to fall apart any time soon. If you saw the evidence I saw that USPS played football with the package on the way you'd be convinced of its sturdiness too. Here's a shot of the bag bellows that was packed with it - didn't fare so well. Glad I paid the $30 extra for the aluminum case for the camera. Camera is completely unscathed.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b377/walter2323/IMG_0303.jpg

[Steve H]

Ouch....And I've always found USPS to be superior to UPS and FedEx.
Thanks to Scott, I'll have the chance to check out the Shen Hao. Considering that the supergraphic on Epay went for over $400, I'd prefer to just add the extra cash and get something new.

Thanks again for all of your help, I'll keep you abreast of my findings.

[Richard Littlewood]

Walker Titan SF. Has to be up there with the most rugged field cameras ever.

[Jim Jones]

Steve H -- I use both view and press cameras, depending on the circumstances. Speed Graphic gets all the attention, but isn't the only camera in its class. I have both Speed Graphics and a B&J press camera. The latter has been stripped of rangefinder and tubular viewfinder for field use. In some ways it is better than the Speed Graphic, in some ways not. My model has rugged all metal construction, better front movements, and a revolving back. It lacks infinity stops, which is no great inconvenience for most field work. Like the Anniversary model Speed Graphic, it has a drop bed and takes 4 inch lens boards which are easy to fabricate. Other models of B&J may have different features. Busch and others also made good press cameras with their own idiosyncrasies. The Super Graphic was the final stage of evolution from that company, but may be too sophisticated for us who don't mind tailoring a camera to our own requirements.

[CXC]

When I upgraded from Shen Hao I ended up with a Walker, which is probably the toughest standard-design field camera, made of machined ABS plastic and stainless steel. I chose it for its durability, non-traditional materials, reasonable price, Technika-size lensboards, and long bellows, and am completely happy with it. Also, Mike Walker is a joy to deal with. However, the camera is more than double the indicated price range.

[Rakesh Malik]

I think that if you pick out a camera you like, you'll be fine... there is some merit to the suggestion that you skip your first one and move right to the second, but if you can't afford it, you can't afford it :)

When I bought my camera, I babied it a lot... still do, to some extent -- and mine's built like a tank. But when you look around at what the pros use, some of them on some pretty serious trips, you'll see lots of wooden field cameras stuffed in padded packs, and they clearly hold up just fine -- and they use those cameras a LOT.

[Dave_B]

I use the Toyo 45AII. It is a great camera, built like a tank. Very rugged, but heavy. Everything is quite solid and smooth. I backpack with it a fair bit. The camera has been subjected to some pretty hard knocks and it comes through them just fine. However, I wish I could say the same for my back. If you are going to backpack for a couple of days with this camera, get a bottle of Advil to go with you. You will need it, especially if you want to bring along some other things like a tent, sleeping bag, food....

[Bill_1856]

If you can live without swing, an almost perfect camera for you both in price and weight is the Busch Pressman model D. Lots of them come up on ebay.

[Jim Noel]

I disagree that heavier cameras are more forgiving of damage.

A wellmade wooden camera is much more easily repaired in the field of necessary and new parts can be made by a competent cabinet maker.

I have had Toyos and Technikas and just never liked them primarily because of excess weight.. Give me a good old wooden Deardorff (I have three), Tachihara or even Shen Hao anytime. Warmer in winter, cooler in summer, when accidentally dropped they "bend but don't break" in most cses.

Jim

[William Barnett-Lewis]

goes, I really don't ever see myself using the rangefinder. Over the last year I've gotten used to the groundglass, and even now I find the viewfinder of a 35mm 'restrictive' for some reason. Maybe its just me....


[/lurk mode] Perhaps you won't ever want to handhold, but the RF gives you that as an option. Without one, you don't have that option. That's not always a good enough reason, but it is something to consider...

OTOH, this message comes from someone who loves to go out with an Anniversary Speed, hand held with the old Ektar 127/4.7... ;)

But in the end, have fun with whatever you choose. This game isn't worth the heartaches if it isn't fun.

William
[lurk mode]

[Steve H]

Thanks again to everyone for their suggestions.
As I said earlier, I made a short list, and Im slowly but surely getting a chance to check out all of the instruments in person. We'll see what the new year brings.

Thanks again,

[al olson]

I use both a Technika IV and a Toyo Super Graphic for field photography. If I am going to be hiking any distances at all, I go for the Super Graphic. The Technika is much too heavy. I think it was Edward Weston who said, "Anything more than 500 feet from the car is not photogenic," but back then he was referring to his 8x10. In my case it refers to the Technika.

I bought one of the early Super Graphics in 1958 and used it for press photography for 3 years. Traded it in later on a Nikon Nikkorex F and I am very sorry about that. I was fortunate 4 years ago to find a used Toyo in pristine condition and I have added a couple of cammed lenses to go with it.

You may find situations where the rangefinder comes in handy. I do a lot of low light and night photography, oftentimes where I can barely see my subject on the ground glass. I have rangefinders on both cameras and I find them very handy for checking focus in "unavailable light." They are also very handy for determining the ranges to your selected points for near and far depth of field. I also use a viewfinder to check my composition and ensure that my camera has not moved between shots.

The Super Graphic is light, it is sturdy, and there are enough used ones around that you can pick up a whole kit with case, holders, filters, etc., on ebay for around $350. I keep checking on ebay and have noted a lot of good buys over recent years.

The one deficiency that may deter you is that the only back movement is rotation, but you can accomplish most contortions using the front standard.

al