I Want It All...

[wfwhitaker]

I'm looking for a lens which has the following characteristics:


Around 14" focal length
Image circle large enough to allow moderate movements on 8x10
Sharp, yet with soft and pleasing out-of-focus areas (OK then, nice bokeh!)
Good color fidelity
A reliable shutter suitable for use with those touchy chrome films

Clearly I want to have my cake and eat it, too. There are lots of 14" lenses. But there seem to be few which meet all the requirements, particularly on the bokeh bit. I'd be interested in your suggestions. Any Cooke Series XVa users may feel free to chime in. 311mm is a little short, but would still work.

Thanks,
Will

[lee\c]

355mm G-Claron. it may have more movement than you want but more is better. Copal #3 fits directly no spacers. It is single coated though if that makes a difference but it is tack sharp.

lee\c

[tim atherton]

I'm looking for a lens which has the following characteristics:


Around 14" focal length
Image circle large enough to allow moderate movements on 8x10
Sharp, yet with soft and pleasing out-of-focus areas (OK then, nice bokeh!)
Good color fidelity
A reliable shutter suitable for use with those touchy chrome films

Clearly I want to have my cake and eat it, too. There are lots of 14" lenses. But there seem to be few which meet all the requirements, particularly on the bokeh bit. I'd be interested in your suggestions. Any Cooke Series XVa users may feel free to chime in. 311mm is a little short, but would still work.

Thanks,
Will

14" Commercial Ektar - lovely for colour, I've always found has very nice Bokeh-y stuff and sharp. Only downside is making sure to get a good running shutter.

Beyond this, you probably couldn't beat a 14" Kern Dagor - fantastic (take a look at Lynne Cohens work) - but harder to find

(this one went fast :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330045146618&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 )

[Jack Flesher]

At 355mm, I Second the 14" Gold dot Dagor (Kern) in a Copal #3. Beautiful everywhere, great oof rendering.

HOWEVERBUT! I sold mine because I got a nearly identical look in the Cooke Triple -- but it's a 311/476/646 *and* costs twice what the Kern 355's are selling for... But then it is three great focals for 8x10 and even the single cells are surprisingly sharp and smooth *and* it all fits in the space and weight of one lens ;)

[Scott Davis]

14" Commercial Ektar - lovely for colour, I've always found has very nice Bokeh-y stuff and sharp. Only downside is making sure to get a good running shutter.

Beyond this, you probably couldn't beat a 14" Kern Dagor - fantastic (take a look at Lynne Cohens work) - but harder to find

(this one went fast :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330045146618&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 )

I'll second the remark about the Commercial Ektar. Will- if you'd like to shoot one sometime, to see how it goes, I'd be willing to let you try mine out. The shutter on mine has been CLA'd recently and timed, so I know that the shutter speeds are basically on, except for the 1/25th, which I think is essentially the same as my 1/50th. Either that or the same as the 1/10th- I'd have to look at my cheat sheet.

[Steve Hamley]

I'll second the Kodak Commercial Ektar.

Steve

[squiress]

Are these Cooke triplets readily available or are there long waiting times to purchase one, or are they only available in the used market?

Thanks

Stew

[Christopher Perez]

360mm Schneider Symmar Convertible in a CLA'd #5 Compound shutter.

The optic is as large as the Queen Mary's main anchor, but it's razor sharp (even wide open), has beautiful "bokeh" (due to the circular aperture of the Compound shutter), and privides enough coverage to spill light over 12x20 inches. Oh, and they're cheap.

[Scott Davis]

360mm Schneider Symmar Convertible in a CLA'd #5 Compound shutter.

The optic is as large as the Queen Mary's main anchor, but it's razor sharp (even wide open), has beautiful "bokeh" (due to the circular aperture of the Compound shutter), and privides enough coverage to spill light over 12x20 inches. Oh, and they're cheap.

Chris- A: How cheap, and B: how easy are they to find in that configuration?

[Christopher Perez]

A: In mint condition, I've seen these (even on eBay) for $300 to $400.

B: I had no problems chasing three down inside an hour when I started looking. I was either very lucky or there are plenty out there. There was even one guy who had one in his eBay Store with an attractive Buy It Now. If you find nothing on the open market, call Jim at MidWest Photo to see what he might have.


Chris- A: How cheap, and B: how easy are they to find in that configuration?

[Jack Flesher]

Are these Cooke triplets readily available or are there long waiting times to purchase one, or are they only available in the used market?

Thanks

Stew

I bought mine about 6 weeks ago from Jeff at Badger and at that time he claimed he had "several" in stock.

[JasonC]

Scott,

355mm Schneider Symmar Convertible in a Copal #3 is the same lens as the 360mm in Compound. They show up quite often. I got a 355mm for not much more than buying the shutter alone.

Jason.

[Christopher Perez]

This is a good point.

The reason I went the #5 Compound route was specifically to take advantage of the aperture shape. The Copal #3's shape isn't 1/2 bad (as these things go in modern times). The Compound's aperture shape is truely round gloriousness! :)



355mm Schneider Symmar Convertible in a Copal #3 is the same lens as the 360mm in Compound. They show up quite often. I got a 355mm for not much more than buying the shutter alone.

[Steve Hamley]

Just a comment, the Symmar may be available cheap, but if you plan on using even one 105mm filter all your savings go down the tube. The 14" Commercial Ektar uses 72mm filters.

Steve

[Scott Davis]

Just a comment, the Symmar may be available cheap, but if you plan on using even one 105mm filter all your savings go down the tube. The 14" Commercial Ektar uses 72mm filters.

Steve

Steve- absolutely true - but the 14" Commercial Ektar covers 11x14 with modest movement. If the above posts are true, the Symmar covers 12x20, which is a radically different animal. Depending on your purpose, the filter would be just the cost of doing business, or else you'd use Lee gelatin filters instead.

For the purpose of the OP, the 14" Commercial Ektar is a more practical lens, especially when comparing the Compound #5 to the Ilex #5.

[Christopher Perez]

The 14" Commercial Ektar is indeed a brilliant optic. Sharp from wide open. Kodak really knew how to build those lenses. They are small and light enough to fail the anchor test. :)


... For the purpose of the OP, the 14" Commercial Ektar is a more practical lens, especially when comparing the Compound #5 to the Ilex #5.

[Steve Hamley]

Scott,

Lee resins are 100mm x150mm. They won't cover a lens that uses 105mm filters. I'd love it if they did. Might be able to use them behind the lens, but then you've knocked the effective lens speed down if you focus with the filter in place.

Steve

[Capocheny]

355mm G-Claron. it may have more movement than you want but more is better. Copal #3 fits directly no spacers. It is single coated though if that makes a difference but it is tack sharp.

lee\c

And, nice bokeh as well... :)

Cheers

[John Kasaian]

I'll 4th or 5th (or is it 6th?) the 14" Commercial Ektar. I've got one and it truly is a lovely lens. Everytime I get a hankerin' for a 355 G Claron or a Symmar, I take the Commercial Ektar out to play and the urge to add another 14"er vaporizes. I'd be willing to bet Carol Miller can make a #5 Universal sing like a Rolex watch

[Scott Davis]

Scott,

Lee resins are 100mm x150mm. They won't cover a lens that uses 105mm filters. I'd love it if they did. Might be able to use them behind the lens, but then you've knocked the effective lens speed down if you focus with the filter in place.

Steve

Ok- then Kodak 6" wratten gels or something. I know larger filters exist. If not Wrattens, then Rosco makes all kinds of gel filters for cinema lighting in all kinds of sizes.

[C. D. Keth]

then Rosco makes all kinds of gel filters for cinema lighting in all kinds of sizes.


Those are definately not optical quality, plus they scratch when you look at them. You want wrattens if not glass filters.

[erie patsellis]

In theory, I agree with you christopher, but in reality, I've used many many 6" lighting gels in front of and behind my 360 Componon and have never seen any ill effects.

erie

[Ted Harris]

One more to add to the pot .... a Docter 360 Apo Germinar

[Steve Hamley]

Filter characteristics notwithstanding, my point was the Commercial Ektar's 72mm filters are cheap and easy. The 360mm Symmar's front screw-in 105mm filters are easy and extremely expensive or cheap and relatively inconvenient (gels or rear-mounted filters).

If you're in to 8x20 or 12x20, the Symmar is the better choice; suck it up and get out the checkbook. As ULF shooters have to do more often than we prefer.

If you need the covearge for 8x20, I'll add the superb 360mm f:9 WA Apo Nikkor.

Steve

[wfwhitaker]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I appreciate everyone's input.

[wfwhitaker]

Anyone have experience using the 14" f/7.7 Dagor with regard to color performance and those out-or-focus areas? Would be interesting to compare it to the 14" Kern...

[Steve Hamley]

I have a 16-1/2" uncoated Series III Dagor in barrel that used to belong to a commercial photographer. It was one of his favorite 8x10 lenses, and he's taken color photographs in a studio that have won awards. I'm assuming you have your eye on one and it is uncoated. Should be fine, especially if you use a lens shade.

I used to have a 14" Kern Dagor, and have a 14" Blue Dot Trigor. Both are the design that does not have front filter threads, and as a result the glass really sticks out there and a lens shade must be used IMO, otherwise flare is a real issue outdoors.

The older Dagors have more coverage, and the 14" Kern reportedly is only good for 8x10 with movements or 11x14 max without. Jim Galli loves his 14" Kern Dagor, but I was underwhelmed with mine. It seemed to be nothing special and shading the glass sans filter threads was always a challenge when using a filter, especially without 3 arms.

Unless money is of no concern, I'd go with the 14" f:7.7 Dagor if it was in good condition. YMMV.

Steve

[Jim Galli]

Clearly puzzled. The Kern Dagor is surely un-beatable. I think what you really want is a 14 1/2" Hermagis Eidoscope but you'll have to forego at least 4 of your 5 original requirements. I have a lovely 7.7 14" Dagor in barrel if you'd like to borrow it to compare.

[Chuck Pere]

My 355mm Kern Dagor does have filter threads. I believe they are 60mm. This is a MC version.

[Jack Flesher]

My 355mm Kern Dagor does have filter threads. I believe they are 60mm. This is a MC version.


I think there are three distinct Kern 355's -- single coated, no filter threads, multicoated no filter threads and MC with filter threads. Rumor has it the SC is the smoothest of the bunch as the MC versions are almost too harsh, but it is also supposedly more flare prone. The version I owned was the SC version, so I can only say it was stellar and in the limited i used it had no undue flare issues...