Film Holder brand? Does it matter?

[Tony Flora]

I am new to 4x5 and have read that some film holders are prone to light leaks (wood). Is there a specific brand that is less prone to light leaks? Do any of them tend to hold the film flatter then others? What's your favorite 4x5 sheet film holder and why?

Thanks,
Tony

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Tony,

Most of the Fiedelity, Lisco or Linhof holders will be fine. They come up for sale on eBay all the time and you can score 10 or so pretty cheaply. I have used all of these brands and they each are fine.

Hope that helps.

[Merg Ross]

My collection of film holders includes Lisco, Fidelity, Riteway, Burke & James and Graphic. The latter two are wooden holders. I can not recall ever having a light leak due to a particular design or brand. However, I would suggest that when in the field it is wise to shield the holder with a dark cloth when removing and inserting the slide. As to film flatness, it has never been an issue although I have read of such concerns by other photographers.

[Gordon Moat]

Hello Tony,

I went with the Kodak Readyload and Fuji Quickload packet systems for a few reasons. Mostly convenience, portability, processing simplicity (lab drop-off), consistency, and reliability. That last one should surprise a few people, since it seems like many people have posted comments on the internet about problems with both. They are not ideal, but the film flatness seems quite reliable for long night exposures, selective focus, or any other type of shooting. They are almost entirely dust free, though it can depend upon your shooting conditions. The downside for many, which admittedly is a huge issue, is the lack of film choices. If you want to use a wider range of films, or you favourite films are not available in these packet systems, then they are a bad choice. This is also a more expensive way to do 4x5, since the available film choices are more expensive. Anyway, you asked about favourites, and these are mine.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

[Brian Ellis]

I've never heard that wood holders are prone to light leaks. I've had quite a few and never had a leak that I can remember. I guess warpage is at least a theoretical problem though I've never had that either. The only real downside I know of is that they tend to be a little heavier than plastic. Nevertheless, I've always liked the wood holders. I sometimes remove the paint and find a very attractive wood underneath. They're also usually less expensive than newer plastic ones.

[reellis67]

I've used the old plate holders that came with my Korona 4x5 (with film sheaths) and not had light leak problems. I have Toyo (bought new), Lisco, Fidelity, and 4 cherry plate holders and they all do a good job. I mostly use the newer holders, but if I need a lot of sheets at one time, I have no problems with any of them. Mostly the problem children are the holders that have been ill treated, and some of the older holders have been around so long it's hard to think that they haven't been rode hard and put up wet, so to speak.

As far as flatness goes, the only problem I've ever seen was once, and only once so far, the film wasn't sitting square in the holder - it was higher at one end than the other - but all that did was create the need for a slight rotation of the negative carrier in the enlarger. I've never had flatness problems with any holder, vintage or new.

- Randy

[Glenn Thoreson]

I use all kinds of old holders. Rarely do I ever have a problem. When I do, it's usually the light trap felt. Draping the dark cloth over the whole thing is not only a cure for these things, but good practice in general. The biggest concern I have when I get a new batch of holders is replacing hinge tapes, cleaning really well and keeping them clean. I rarely pay over a buck or two each for holders.

[David Karp]

I have heard that the Tiltall brand of film holders is prone to light leaks.

[cyrus]

Wood holders don't generate static electricity when pulling the darkslide and hence less dust

[Capocheny]

Tony,

I've used pretty much all the major brands available out there but my favorites are the Linhof and Toyo brands. IMHO, they're built like brick walls and "seem" to hold the film a bit flatter. These tend to be the most expensive of all the varieties out there.

[If you're going to pick up some of the Linhof holders... just make sure that they're not of the plate holder variety.]

The Lisco and Fidelity brands are also pretty reliable.

That said, the choice of favorites is mostly a personal thing.

Like Brian, I've also not heard that wooden holders leaked light any worse than any of the others. And, I've never had any of mine warp on me... :)

As for the wooden ones not generating any static electricity and, hence, are less attractive to dust... interesting! I'll have to test that this out with some of my wooden holders. :)

Cheers

[Tony Flora]

I have to confess that I did not actually hear that wood film holders were "prone" to light leaks. I made that assumption after reviewing listings on ebay and searching this forum. A large percentage of the listings on ebay say "no light leaks" and there are several threads on this forum about how to test for or repair light leaks.

[Frank Petronio]

There is a Sinar holder that uses a special adhesive sheet to hold the film absolutely flat. And there are vacuum holders than require a pump to suck the air out, flattening the film against the base.

Once you get to that level of anal prescision you have to start measuring the thickness of the film and calculating whether you want to focus on the emulsion or base. Layered color materials just throws some people into fits.

[C. D. Keth]

Wood holders don't generate static electricity when pulling the darkslide and hence less dust

Hah! Another person with my opinion (fairly substantiated, in my case) on wood holders. The plastic ones just seem to collect dust like a TV screen.

[C. D. Keth]

Once you get to that level of anal prescision you have to start measuring the thickness of the film and calculating whether you want to focus on the emulsion or base. Layered color materials just throws some people into fits.

I'd love to meet someone that particular in LF.

It used to be with motion pictures (which obviously have much higher tolerances due to the wildly higher enlargement ratio for projection vs. paper prints) that you would adjust the flange focal depth depending on the film you wanted to shoot. The flage focal depth for color films was about .01mm less than for B&W because, the idea was, you want to focus on the middle layer in color films to get best average focus on all layers and on the only layer for B&W. Since the middle layer would hold a position slightly closer to the lens than B&W emulsion, this adjustment was often made.

[paulr]

Wood holders are just prone to being older ... which means there's a better chance that the tape or trap has had time to wear out. If these are both ok, then there's no problem with wood ones.

I have a few wood ones ... they do seem a little easier to get dust free.

[eric mac]

I have an assortment of used fidelity and lisco and have some that leaked, but most are ok. I did pick up a couple Toyo holders and these are the bee's knees compared to the others as far as fit and build. They are a little more expensive and are less frequently seen used.

Eric

[Jim Rice]

I experienced some dark slide dimensional differences between brands and eras in 4x5. Not wanting to experiment in 8x10, I'm sticking to Fidelities, since these are the first I've aquired.

[Andrew O'Neill]

For us poorer folk, lisco fidelty...used...from ebay.

[John Kasaian]

IMHO the thing that really matters is if the film holder works. To know that, you've got to test the things.

[Tony Flora]

Thank you all for the responses. I have been doing some searching for information on the web and It seams like wood holders are a less dusty option then plastic, due to the static electricity generated by the plastic rubbing on other materials with a positive charge. However, it appears that storing film holders in an anti-static bag up to the moment of exposure can reduce the amount of built up static electricity associated with plastic holders. Here is an interesting link http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/static_materials.htm.

It seams from your feedback that light leaks are not a common problem to any particular material and that testing and visual inspection should be performed. Also, film flatness does not seem to be a large concern with cut film holders.

Thanks again.

[Per Madsen]

I recommend Toyo. Very good construction and very stable.

I have not tried Lisco, Linhof or Riteway, but I have had two Fidelity holders
which had loose dark slides and flimsy construction. They are sold now.

Remember to check the hinge tape on the holders. If it is
loose do not buy them. If you can feel the spring through the
hinge tape it indicates that the hinges are very loose.

[Tony Ilardi]

After struggling for a year with a new Fuji Quickload holder (first the film would not pull out, then the holder developed light leaks I could not cure) I switched to traditional holders, Toyo in particular. I purchased them new from Freestyle at a very good price; as far as I know, Freestyle may still have them at that price.

[Emrehan Zeybekoglu]

I have Fidelity & Toyo holders. Although the ones I have are all fine, I can tell the difference in quality between Fidelity and Toyo. The latter is better constructed and it even feels better. Toyo is generally more expensive but you might be able to find reasonably priced ones on the well-known auction site.

[reellis67]

Tape is easily replaced. I've re-taped many holders in 4x5 and 8x10 and never had a problem. I find that they sell for a lot less if the tape is loose, since people think they can't be repaired. Simple black 'artists' tape comes in many widths and does a knock up job.

- Randy

[Antonio Corcuera]

Another vote for Toyo, better build quality and seem to hold the film flatter. However, I have bought all my holders used and have found that the Toyo dark slides are easier to crack, chip or break than the flimsier and more flexible ones from the current Fidelities.

[Kevin Crisp]

Tony: The Toyo ones are really well made. I have a few of those and all other things being equal, I certainly prefer them.

The Lisco's and Fidelity's are fine too. The black paint on one side of the slides with the metal pulls seems to readily flake off on these.

The graflex/riteway ones are very nice, they usually need a cleaning since the slides stick, but a little scrubbing with simple green and a light coat of pledge will fix that. They seem to be quite reasonably priced used and I've never had one that wasn't perfectly usable once cleaned up. Blow out the dust traps on the old ones.

In 4X5 I find myself using grafmatics more often these days.

I have used many wooden 8X10 holders and if I take the time to redo the hinge tape when necessary and clean out the light trap I've had no problems with them. I prefer the ones with the screws that allow me to take the light trap apart. The older dark slides can have cracks that are hard to spot, so check carefully.

[Glenn Thoreson]

If you ever run across any old Alkon film holders in decent shape, grab 'em. All aluminum and no hinge tapes to go bad. Almost indestructable, but not often seen. I just bagged 7 - 5X7s in really bad shape for ten bucks. If I can salvage a couple, it will be a bargain. Refurbished one today.

[mccartney]

Hello!

I have a 4*5 B&J camera! And I am missing the original film holder. Does anybody know if a regular Fidelity 4*5 holder will do the trick? It's not a press one and it's not a monorail one. It's a flat view one.

thanks to all the LF colleagues!

Cesar Juarez-Vargas
Studio Six Photography

[Donald Qualls]

As far as I'm aware, all the B&J cameras had standard spring backs and will work as designed with any brand of ANSI type 4x5 or 9x12 cm film holder.

[Pete Watkins]

I know that you're in the States but if you do find any by the British firm M.P.P or Micro Precision Products I understand that they vary in registration from the norm. They all seem to be made from wood, some have an insert that was used to convert them from plate holders to sheet film holders. I would avoid them.
Best wishes,
Pete.

[Donald Qualls]

I know that you're in the States but if you do find any by the British firm M.P.P or Micro Precision Products I understand that they vary in registration from the norm. They all seem to be made from wood, some have an insert that was used to convert them from plate holders to sheet film holders. I would avoid them.

And there's your reason -- they were originally plate holders; without the film sheath, the film may rest 1 to 1.5 mm (the thickness of a plate) behind where it should, resulting in focus much closer than what showed in the ground glass. With a film sheath installed, they're probably perfectly serviceable -- but it's worth being aware, so you know you need to *look* for the film sheath...

[Ole Tjugen]

The film sheaths offset the emulsion 0.3mm back (I've measured). So if you want to be ultra-precise, you should mobe the lens back 0.3mm after setting focus when using film in plate holders.

BTW I use Lisco, Fidelity, two types of Linhof, and an assortment of plate holders. I've only had two wooden plate holders leak, and that was beacuse the wood in the dark slide itself had cracked from age. I caulked them with black silicone (for ship deck use), and they're perfect now.

[Turner Reich]

Wood is good, so is plastic. Unless they were used as frisbees they should be fine. If you want to test them out for light leaks that would be wise before that favorite trip. I pull the slide under the dark cloth as not to expose the slot to direct light. After you do so let the camera settle down from any slight movement. Good luck and happy hunting.

Ole, I ran a test on my medium format camera and though the film plane distance measured the same optically as the prism did, a slight turn to the right of the lens focus hits the emulsion at the absolute critical spot. Focus on a target and expose on focus then take another and focus when it looks to be on then turn the lens a slight bit to the left and one a slight bit to the right. By focusing from beyond, on, and before the target you will see in the negative if there is an error or just where the film plane is.

tr

[Ole Tjugen]

tr,

there was at least one late 9x12cm plate camera that had an "extra" focus switch which was to be moved after focussing if using film sheaths in the plate holder. It moved the front standard 0.3mm back. Shimming the GG 0.3mm would acomplish the same, except that I would then have to move focus when using plates. Since plates cost about 10x as much as film, I prefer getting those exact, and rather bracket-focus the films. Now if films are used with a stiff backing and not the sheaths, there will be no shift and the focus is the same.
That's why the Linhof Universal Cut Film & Plate holders have a pressure plate - the register is the same regardless. They can be quite fiddly to load with film, as you have to push the pressure plate down while sliding the film in.
There's another Linhof version too, which is more like a (very high quality) regular film holder. If I have a choise, these are my favorites.

[Donald Qualls]

there was at least one late 9x12cm plate camera that had an "extra" focus switch which was to be moved after focussing if using film sheaths in the plate holder. It moved the front standard 0.3mm back.

Both of my Ica Ideal plate cameras have this switch, but the (newer) Zeiss-Ikon Ideal does not -- not sure they're really comparable, though, as there were a LOT of options on the Ideal such as drop bed, spirit level, different wire finders...

However, on my Ideals, the switch moves only the *scale*, but does nothing whatever to the front standard, apparently on the assumption that if you're the type to use the ground glass, you'll have it shimmed to match the material you shoot on (or have a spare, one for film and one for plates). I haven't had any complaints with the focus on these (and have only one ground glass for the lot), so I haven't messed with it -- especially since I'll probably never buy a box of plates at current prices... :eek: