Alternative Process, Pyro, etc. Users Health Status?

[Frank Petronio]

After seeing those Michael J. Fox commercials I can't help but wonder how my friends who use all these heavy metals and toxic chemicals are doing? Notice anything?

[Kerik Kouklis]

What photo chemicals have been linked to Parkinson's disease?

[Ron Marshall]

After seeing those Michael J. Fox commercials I can't help but wonder how my friends who use all these heavy metals and toxic chemicals are doing? Notice anything?

Definately, lately I've noticed an intense feeling of gratification as my Pyrocat negs come out of the Jobo.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

I did not know that Fox was a photographer using pyro? Unless you are doing mercury or chromium intesification the only heavy metal used in photography is silver. WHat does Fox's disease have to do with us?

[Jim Rice]

Some of us also aspire toward platinum.

[C. D. Keth]

I've has intense feelings toward making dageurrotypes (real ones) but have refrained for just the health reasons. I don't want to play with chlorine gas and boiling mercury any time soon (well I do, but I don't want the eventual outcome healthwise):p

[Peter Lewin]

If you haven't already seen it, there is an article on pyro "dangers" in the View Camera magazine free articles section: http://www.viewcamera.com/pyro.html. Essentially says that as long as you don't inhale the pyro dust while mixing, and wear gloves if you tray process (as I do), pyro shouldn't be any worse than other developers. I've also got a good book on the overall subject: Overexposure- Health Hazards in Photography by Susan Shaw, published by Friends of Photography (copyright 1983, but don't think the hazards have changed much...) If you have a specific chemical in mind, and can't find the info elsewhere, let me know and I'll see if Shaw's book provides an answer!

[Frank Petronio]

Well, unless the answer is exposure makes you paranoid, it was just a general check up on how people are doing.

[C. D. Keth]

Oh...in that case I'm fine. Rochester's weather has me feeling a bit down but I'll be fine in a day or two.

[Ben Calwell]

Frank, I'm Ok so far.

[Kerik Kouklis]

Just a sec.....



OK, I still have a pulse. Rest easy, Frank.

[Brian Ellis]

Did Michael J. Fox use pyro? I thought he used D76.

[John Berry]

The interrogation of my pacemaker says I'm still alive. ( brain still busted ) I would have answered sooner but I was out on the porch smoking a cigar.

[sanking]

I've has intense feelings toward making dageurrotypes (real ones) but have refrained for just the health reasons. I don't want to play with chlorine gas and boiling mercury any time soon (well I do, but I don't want the eventual outcome healthwise):p

I don't blame you for health concerns about making daguerreotypes as there are some really dangerous substances and steps involved. However, if you have the proper equipment and knowledge it can be done safely. If you really want to learn to make daguerretypes I would recommend that you take a workshop with Mike Robison of Toronto. Mike is one of the few real masters of this process and he also makes a line of supplies, including a fuming hood, that make the process very safe.

Sandy King

[steve simmons]

Do you know how I can contact Mike Robinson?

steve simmons

[Don Hutton]

Do you know how I can contact Mike Robinson?

steve simmons


Steve

Try googling - "Mike Robinson Daguerreotypes" - all will be revealed on the first hit...

However, if that's such an apparent stretch, his email is mike@centurydarkroom.com and his phone number is 416 469 8128.

[paulr]

I've has intense feelings toward making dageurrotypes (real ones) but have refrained for just the health reasons. I don't want to play with chlorine gas and boiling mercury any time soon (well I do, but I don't want the eventual outcome healthwise):p

i'm not sure what qualifies as a real daguerrotype vs. a fake one, but my friend Chris (http://christopherlovenguth.com/newflashsite/) makes very real looking ones and does it without mercury. i don't know the details of his process. he says mercury gives somewhat better speed than what he does, but like you, he's not that interested in getting poisoned.

[steve simmons]

Thanks both of you.

steve

[Don Hutton]

I think some are of the opinion that Dags made with the Becquerel process are not quite as "real" as those made with the more traditional mercury process... If anyone on this forum has never seen a real daguerreotype, make a point of tracking some down in an exhibit of some sort - thay are remarkable.

[Christopher Perez]

D76? Check.

Rubber gloves? Check.

Slight tremor? Check. Hold on... it's work related stress... and nothing that a fine local organic microbrew or stunning Malbec red won't cure...

[Jim Noel]

In case you are interested, pyrogallic acid is only a slightly different compound than hydroquinone, or coffee. You should try developing some negatives in left over coffee some time, it works. With moderate safety precautions, there is no reason for any of the chemicals we use to cause health problems, except for metol to which many are allergic.

[Al Seyle]

I submit we take far greater health risks hanging off the edge of cliffs than in the darkroom.

[Kerik Kouklis]

I submit we take far greater health risks hanging off the edge of cliffs than in the darkroom.I would take it a stop further to say that driving to wherever you choose to make photographs has a much higher level of risk than exposure to photo chemicals.

[Frank Petronio]

Living in Rochester is not without risk. One RIT student's MFA thesis had him developing negative in the water downstream from Kodak. It took a couple of hours but it was a good, solid N-3 development.

[Christopher Perez]

Indeed. Taken to it's illogic extreme, 3,000 unfortunate souls died on that fated day five years ago at the hands of crazy fools. In contrast, 150,000 US citizens have died in the ensuing 5 years of gun shot wounds. 200,000 US Citizens have died in automobile accidents since that time.

Unbrideled fears can drive strange cultural behaviour. Yet when faced with facts, we as a society fail to act with the same passion that our fears can drive.

Yet another saying: Process and print early. Process and print often.

Consider the "cautions" and take prudent (not senseless) steps to protect your health from photographic chemicals.


I would take it a stop further to say that driving to wherever you choose to make photographs has a much higher level of risk than exposure to photo chemicals.

[sanking]

Do you know how I can contact Mike Robinson?

steve simmons

The contact information provided by Don Hutton is the same I have.

BTW, in addition to being one of the very best daguerreotype artists in the world Mike is also a true expert on the history of the daguerreotype. His home, which is located in what was at once time the Wrigley Spearmint factory in Toronto, is equipped as a true working daguerreotype studio and laboratory. And the lighting there is simply wonderful, as one entire side of his apartment, which is quite wide and with a very high ceiling, is covered with windows with orientation to the north.

I hope you are thinking about something in View Camera on the daguerreotype. That would be something really interesting IMO.

Sandy King

[sanking]

I think some are of the opinion that Dags made with the Becquerel process are not quite as "real" as those made with the more traditional mercury process... If anyone on this forum has never seen a real daguerreotype, make a point of tracking some down in an exhibit of some sort - thay are remarkable.

Also, exposures with the Becquerel process are much longer than those with traditional daguerreotype.

Sandy King

[steve simmons]

Chris Lovington did a how-to article for us about 3 years ago but we may do a portfolio ofhis work in an upcoming issue.

We will post the article on staining developers from or Sept/Oct 06 issue inte FreeArticles section of our web site in the next couple of days.

steve simmons

[Ben Calwell]

Can you really develop film in coffee?

[sanking]

Chris Lovington did a how-to article for us about 3 years ago but we may do a portfolio ofhis work in an upcoming issue.


steve simmons

I would really like to see a portfoliio by Mike in View Camera. He is an outstanding artist in this media and really deserves the attention. Kudos to you if it comes to pass.

Some of you might be interested in looking at a small daguerreotype that Mike made of me in his studio in Toronto. I posted this over on APUG back in May or June but many folks here probably have not seen it. Exposure time was about 15 seconds as I recall, with a 7"-8" lens wide open. If you lok carefully you will notice the very limited depth of field, with only the eyes really in best focus. I really like the image, and of course the real thing is just dazzling. Course, you must look beyond the ugly mug and conentrate on the artistry of the photograpaher.

Sandy King

[Christopher Perez]

Sandy, Mike's portrait of you is quite stunning.

As a physicist friend here at work noted, "why, it's fun with mercury!"

[Ron Marshall]

Sandy, I just want to thank you again for your advice on Pyrocat. I just completed my initial testing using TMY semi-stand in Pyrocat-HD 1:1:150 and the results are stunning. I will post something when all are completed. A 14 stop range was rendered beautifully, with tremendous tonality and microcontrast. Much nicer than the same neg processed semi-stand in Rodinal 1:150; which by itself looked quite good.

[Frank Petronio]

Sandy, that really is a wonderful portrait. And you don't look at all like what I expected ;)

[Capocheny]

\Slight tremor? Check. Hold on... it's work related stress... and nothing that a fine local organic microbrew or stunning Malbec red won't cure...

Chris,

The 2001 Valsacro diOro (a Spanish Rioja) has been known also to cure tremors of the kind you're mentioning. The downside is that, consuming too much, it can also cause slurred speech and blurred vision. :)

Sandy,

I agree with all the comments about the portrait... great image!


Ben,

Only if it's a double dry macchiatto! :)


Cheers

[Ben Calwell]

Sandy -- that's a swell portrait of you. How did you manage to keep your head still for 15 seconds -- that seems as if it would be a long time to be absolutely stationary.

[sanking]

Sandy -- that's a swell portrait of you. How did you manage to keep your head still for 15 seconds -- that seems as if it would be a long time to be absolutely stationary.

Ben,

As best I can remember I just steadied my body and held the pose. Some people use a head rest for long exposures but holding steady for 10-15 seconds is not all that hard to do. I am certain there would have been some slight movement, or blinking of the eyes, but it does not detract from the portrait so far as I can tell.

Sandy King

[Christopher Perez]

Ooooo... NOW 'er talk'n.

Truth be known, the wife and I roundly enjoyed Rioja's over this last summer. It goes exceedingly well with a wide variety of meat dishes. Combined with a dry rub pork loin cooked on the BBQ... ah... heaven...

In fact, we had the opportunity to try a couple Riojas along side a pair of California single varietals (spell that expensive "boutique" supposedly fine wines). The California wines were thin, short on complexity, and syrup'y cough drop flavored. In stark contrast, the Spanish wines were full, rich, deep, nuanced, complex, utterly wonderful tremor reducers.


The 2001 Valsacro diOro (a Spanish Rioja) has been known also to cure tremors of the kind you're mentioning. The downside is that, consuming too much, it can also cause slurred speech and blurred vision. :)

[Scott Davis]

Ooooo... NOW 'er talk'n.

Truth be known, the wife and I roundly enjoyed Rioja's over this last summer. It goes exceedingly well with a wide variety of meat dishes. Combined with a dry rub pork loin cooked on the BBQ... ah... heaven...

In fact, we had the opportunity to try a couple Riojas along side a pair of California single varietals (spell that expensive "boutique" supposedly fine wines). The California wines were thin, short on complexity, and syrup'y cough drop flavored. In stark contrast, the Spanish wines were full, rich, deep, nuanced, complex, utterly wonderful tremor reducers.


Yes, Riojas are very nice. Hard to beat a good Rioja. Although, now having tried Malbecs in their native soil, I'm quite partial to a good Argentinian Malbec. I still have a bottle and a half or so left of a Bodega Catena Zapata Saint Felicien Malbec that I brought back with me. Gorgeous stuff, but you can't find it here in the States. Grrr. And so cheap too! Down there, in the duty-free, it was $10 a bottle. If you could get it here, it would have to be at least $30.

[Christopher Perez]

As a stress induced tremor reduction agent, Riojas and Malbecs are wonderful. When we were in Italy a year ago, we tried all manner of local tasty treats. So I'll add France and Italy to my short list of favored nations.

A doctor across the street is part of the Carlton Wine Coop up here in Oregon. He and a small crew of vintners crafted the Malbec we had. It was so outstanding that I felt (and still feel) that is was the finest American made wine I ever had the pleasure of drinking.

As for Riojas, give me pork, a hot BBQ, plenty of tart veggies and I'll easily believe that the gods love us humans.

I get the strong impression that the peoples from the Latin countries not only know how to create beautiful wines, but that they also know how to live! :)



Yes, Riojas are very nice. Hard to beat a good Rioja. Although, now having tried Malbecs in their native soil, I'm quite partial to a good Argentinian Malbec. I still have a bottle and a half or so left of a Bodega Catena Zapata Saint Felicien Malbec that I brought back with me. Gorgeous stuff, but you can't find it here in the States. Grrr. And so cheap too! Down there, in the duty-free, it was $10 a bottle. If you could get it here, it would have to be at least $30.

[Ole Tjugen]

I get the strong impression that the peoples from the Latin countries not only know how to create beautiful wines, but that they also know how to live! :)

For pure relaxation and stress-knot-removal, try a good Amarone. The Veronese call it "Vino da Meditazione" - wine of meditation.

They are also reductive enough that I wouldn't be surprised if you could develop film in them, but that would be a waste of good meditation!

[Scott Davis]

As a stress induced tremor reduction agent, Riojas and Malbecs are wonderful. When we were in Italy a year ago, we tried all manner of local tasty treats. So I'll add France and Italy to my short list of favored nations.

A doctor across the street is part of the Carlton Wine Coop up here in Oregon. He and a small crew of vintners crafted the Malbec we had. It was so outstanding that I felt (and still feel) that is was the finest American made wine I ever had the pleasure of drinking.

As for Riojas, give me pork, a hot BBQ, plenty of tart veggies and I'll easily believe that the gods love us humans.

I get the strong impression that the peoples from the Latin countries not only know how to create beautiful wines, but that they also know how to live! :)

Give me a good Malbec with a properly grilled grass-fed steak, a nice side of grilled or fresh veggies, and a waist-thickening dessert and I'll be happy enough I might consider turning down sex.

Yes, the Latin countries (stretching the definition to include Italy) have a much better concept of pace-of-life than we do here in the States. Oh, to live in Spain where they still honor the siesta! Argentina is more like here than Spain, because they don't really do the siesta per se, but everything down there is just more laid-back. And you can eat like a king if you're there on a Yankee budget.

[Glenn Thoreson]

I'm feeling awfully old lately.

[duckarrowtypes]

I think some are of the opinion that Dags made with the Becquerel process are not quite as "real" as those made with the more traditional mercury process... If anyone on this forum has never seen a real daguerreotype, make a point of tracking some down in an exhibit of some sort - thay are remarkable.

I can see how some people might say that Becquerel dags aren't "real". The difference in the chemical process is two-fold:

1. The speed of the Becquerel plate is quite longer than those using Bromine as a sensitizer and Mercury as a developer

2. Bromoiodide-sensitized dags developed with Mercury have a far wider dynamic range in the 8-10 stop range versus the 2-3 stops of a Becquerel dag.

I make Becquerel dags and I have seen plenty of mercury dags. A trained eye can tell the difference but both are arguably still "real" daguerreotypes!

By the way, Don, do you still have your Schneider SSXL 150mm for sale?

-Jonathan
http://photographs.danforthsource.com

[Frank Petronio]

Every Argentinian restaurant I've tried has been so meat-heavy that I wonder why they aren't all dead by 40? I mean the last one was great but I think we had 13 different kinds of meats in one sitting.

That is danger.

[Fred Braakman]

Hi all,
I've worked with chemistry for over 25 years, although in a controlled environment, and have never experienced any negative impact from the chemicals I work with, some pretty toxic. However, it is easy to become "familiar" with the chemicals one works with, and not treat them with respect.
I would be very careful with any chemicals that do have a higher toxicity. Long term exposure of minute amounts can have a long term impact. It is prudent to know the toxicity of what you are working with. I would never handle any chemicals without rubber gloves, and I always treat all chemicals as highly toxic.
Residues can be left behind after disposing to waste due to inefficient cleaning, and as such, "dust" can accumulate, which can be inhaled, or picked up with your hands, or clothing. If safe conditions are used in the darkroom, there should be no serious after affects.

Fred

[Don Hutton]

I can see how some people might say that Becquerel dags aren't "real". The difference in the chemical process is two-fold:

1. The speed of the Becquerel plate is quite longer than those using Bromine as a sensitizer and Mercury as a developer

2. Bromoiodide-sensitized dags developed with Mercury have a far wider dynamic range in the 8-10 stop range versus the 2-3 stops of a Becquerel dag.

I make Becquerel dags and I have seen plenty of mercury dags. A trained eye can tell the difference but both are arguably still "real" daguerreotypes!

By the way, Don, do you still have your Schneider SSXL 150mm for sale?

-Jonathan
http://photographs.danforthsource.com

Jonathon

I wasn't suggesting that the Becquerel dags are not "real" simply conveying that some folks did not consider them "as authentic" as real dags. Personally, I'm in awe of anyone making dags of any sort! I sold the 150mmXL on Ebay (in a flash)... I'm quite happy with my decision to let that one go and keep my miniscule Cooke VIIb - I just about never carried the 150 because it is a fair size chunk of glass and not a focal lengh I shoot often.

[Gary L. Quay]

A quick clarification on the main subject: Michael J. Fox is not the only member of the cast of "Family Ties" that came down with Parkenson's. The cause of this is debated, but the conjecture is that substances used on the set containing heavy metals were the cause.

--Gary L. Quay