Tours/Workshops/Whatever they are called

[Paddy]

Questions-----

If any of you were to go or think of going on a photo tour, what would you want or prefer.

Would you want to visit as many photographic sites chosen by a local guide as possible during that tour? ( in otherwords go home with as many good pics as possible )

Would you want to pay more and have some kind of an award winning or qualified photographer fly over with you to take you around and give instruction? ( in otherwords a photographic workshop )

Obviously in theory perhaps one should be more expensive than the other, but say would you prefer your money to be spent on you or would you prefer to pay for tutorial? during the time in question.

Purely fact finding thats all as i appreciate most here know their stuff but please any of you reply with your thoughts.

Thankyou

[John Kasaian]

I'd pack up the truck with the 'dorff, a cooler of lah-mah-joons, some camping equipment, a credit card and hit the highway. I don't want to know too much about where I'm headed or be too caught up in a schedule. If I miss something then I've got a good excuse to return some other time.

In big cities, I'll get up before sunrise and roam around between Starbucks with the Speed Graphic as the sky starts turning steel gray (My Speeder has a cup holder attached ;) ! )

[Brian Ellis]

I've done many workshops but only two photo tours. One was the John Sexton/Ray McSavaney Southwest - A Sense of Place workshop (it's called a workshop because there's some instruction and portfolio critiques but it's basically a tour of Canyon de Chelly and several other great places). The other was Ron Rosenstock's Ireland tour. Both were for LF photographers, both were excellent. I don't think I'd go on a photo tour with a LF camera unless the person conducting the tour was oriented towards LF.

[Mark Sawyer]

If spending the day with a tutor/mentor/guru, I'd hate to waste it photographing. I'd much rather spend the day drinking coffee early/red wine late, talking and looking at prints...

And my most productive photo tours lately have been through my own backyard...

I think I'm setting a bad example...

[Paddy]

OK suppose the schedule was sourced before hand ( as much as possible ) by the people who are going on the tour, and the tour is kept to a small amount of people say no more than 6 people as that lessens the amount of messing about.

Is your Tutorial money better spent at or on a Schooling course than a photographic workshop????

And Brian, what if the uninstructed photo tour took you to the same places and more that your instructed photo tour did, and ended up a lot cheaper but with more of your money spent on you other than paying for your instructor to travel.?

Are you saying you needed the instructor so that you could take your pics??

A tour where we can sit around looking at pics talking and drink wine all day----Book me on that one !!!

[Ed Richards]

> Would you want to visit as many photographic sites chosen by a local guide as possible during that tour? ( in otherwords go home with as many good pics as possible )

One could also argue that spending the entire time in one spot would be the best way to assure as many good pics as possible. If you are shooting locations for stock, the tour sounds good, but do folks really come back with a lot of good fine art shots from drive by shooting?

[Ole Tjugen]

That depends entirely on the location.

When I arranged the "gathering" here in Norway, I decided that simply dropping a lot of LF photographers in the middle of some stunning scenery would give everyone some pictures, a chance to chat and compare equipment, and hopefully also to learn from each other. It was also the easiest arrangement for me, although I did have a contingency plan in case of bad weather...

[Ed Richards]

> although I did have a contingency plan in case of bad weather...

Did that involve the photography of quaint pub interiors?

[Ole Tjugen]

Did that involve the photography of quaint pub interiors?
Unfortunately not, as "quaint pubs" are rather thin on the ground in that region. It involver rather a lot of talking by me, and a demonstration of a few different alternative printing methods using a greenhouse growlamp. And lots of beer to make the ordeal survivable.

[Brian Ellis]

"And Brian, what if the uninstructed photo tour took you to the same places and more that your instructed photo tour did, and ended up a lot cheaper but with more of your money spent on you other than paying for your instructor to travel.?

Are you saying you needed the instructor so that you could take your pics??"

I've never been on a photography "tour" where I was just paying an instructor to travel. The two "tours" (as opposed to the dozen or so workshops) I've been on involved many things other than simply paying an instructor to travel. For example, with Ron Rosenstock's Ireland tour Ron met us at the airport, did all the driving for 10 days, selected locations based on his 30+ years of part-time residency and personal photography in Ireland, put us up in his lovely 8 bedroom home, and his gourmet cook provided us with breakfast and dinner. Sure, I probably could have bought my own airline ticket, rented a car, figured out what hotels to stay at and what restaurants to eat at, and wasted tons of time driving all over the place trying to figure out where to photograph. That woud have saved some money but I was there to photograph, not to be my own travel agent, so I was happy to let Ron do most of the work while I concentrated on photography.

In the case of the John Sexton/Ray McSavaney "tour" of parts of the southwest, I was paying for some instruction and a portfolio critique but mostly for John and Ray's knowledge of places to photograph, plus making all the arrangements to get there.
Photography based workshops and tours come in all kinds of shapes and forms.

I've never had any interest in the tours that I've seen advertised in photography magazines such as "Shutterbug" or "Popular Photography" if that's what you have in mind when you talk about "instructed tours." My feeling has been that I'd end up with a bunch of people many of whom just wanted a vacation with a little photography thrown in and/or who knew little about photography so that I wouldn't benefit from whatever instruction was involved. Every workshop and tour I've been on that comes to mind has been oriented towards large format photography. With those kind I feel like I'll be with other people who aren't totally ignorant of photography and who are there mainly for the photography, not just for a vacation.

[Paddy]

Sorry i should have re-worded and explained better.

I will try again

1. ...A vacation for example may cost you say $1000, and you drive yourself around getting lost and basically wasting your time though enjoying yourself but not getting the best/most pics.

2. ...A photographic workshop with a qualified instructor/ photographer with you all the time taking you to all the known photographic sites and hopefully ( being as you have paid for it ) if required giving you instruction--say for example $3000.

3. ...A photographic tour where you are taken to the same photographic sites as above ( maybe more ) by a local guide but no instruction --say for example $2000

Now which would you prefer, i think No1 is a no no even though rather exciting but not good for getting to the photographic sites.

No2 Is it for those who think they still need to learn photographic skills? But as you can see by my example with the instructor you have to pay extra for their instruction.

No3 is basically the same as No2 but with significantly reduced cost and no instruction.

Now gentlemen which would you prefer? for those who havent and have been on these, I think we have all done No1.

[Paddy]

Ed.

On your point, do you have to travel thousands of miles to stay at one place to get Fine Art pics?

I wouldnt dare comment as i am not qualified but to me that seems slightly strange, could you explain?

[Ole Tjugen]

... Now gentlemen which would you prefer? for those who havent and have been on these, I think we have all done No1.

I find the whole concept of "photographic sites" difficult to comprehend. Do you really mean that great pictures can only be made at specific locations?? And that most photographers need guides to find such places? :confused:

[Paddy]

No Ole i dont mean that far from it.

All i am basically doing is trying to find out whether you/people who go on these Tours or whatever they are called would really want to pay a lot extra per person to be taken around with a Photographic Expert/Tutor or would rather have a local guide take them around to exactly the same places and maybe more for far less money and maybe have extra's included in the lower cost.

I am sounding you out for one of my ideas thats all, i didnt mean to complecate things.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

"To Tour or Not To Tour - that is the question!" - I think.

If the "tour" was with a photographer whose work I really respected and was structured as a small group of photographers with enough one on one interaction between myself and the leader, then I might consider it.

Also, taking a tour to a far off "exotic" location might not be a bad idea as it may allow you to be productive more quickly, but you might be restricted to only the areas where the tour goes which I would find kind of boring.

However, I would probably lean actually towards number 1 on your list as this is what I will often do ( without the getting lost part - which is fun however). I do prepare for the trip by doing some research on the areas that I am interested in, contact other people who might of been there, see if guides exist, etc.

For me, the best photographs are made in areas not in the guide books but the guides can at least get me in a general area and would be valuable as an information resource.

For the most part, I prefer to go it alone or with another "photo buddy" as I come and go into areas as I please and can take as much time as I want.

I think that answers your question.

Thanks for the post.

[Paddy]

Thankyou Eric, i do actually agree with you on your later points because one of the things i was trying to get across in my clumsy way is that you need a " Local " person to find you those hidden away "sites " ( sorry Ole ) meaning those places where you think it would make a good photograph which you would never find unless you had local knowlage or instructions before hand.

[DavidFisk]

If spending the day with a tutor/mentor/guru, I'd hate to waste it photographing. I'd much rather spend the day drinking coffee early/red wine late, talking and looking at prints...

And my most productive photo tours lately have been through my own backyard...

I think I'm setting a bad example...

Acutally, I think Mark has a really good insight here. If I were to pay a kilodollar or more (the going rate these days), I think I would rather have the instructor to myself to pick his brains thoroughly about how he addresses a subject, how he feels about a scene, and especially in light of the foregoing, what specific techniques he would use to create the image. Having a mentor devoted to you exclusively for a couple of days or so seems a lot more beneficial than dealing with a workshop leader for a week who has to split his/her time among a dozen or so particpants.

Eschew the digital.
Embrace the Dark Slide.

The photo curmudgeon has spoken.

[Paddy]

So your money is better spent on instruction IF you need to learn--Totally agree David.

Would you go on a paid guided tour with a local guide or would ramble along on your own or with a mate??

[DavidFisk]

So your money is better spent on instruction IF you need to learn--Totally agree David.

Would you go on a paid guided tour with a local guide or would ramble along on your own or with a mate??

If I had a choice and the money, then I would cough up for a couple of days with a local pro, spending at least 2 months ahead of time thinking of all the questions I could possibly ask. If he had the misfortune to publish a book that I had obtained, then I would also spend the down time, e.g. mid day, going over his work and querrying him intensely about each image that caught my fancy.

The basic idea here is that you would be paying for his time, so make each minute count. If all I came away with is 10 images over 2 days but a wealth of insight as to that photographer's thinking, that would be a good deal. And you don't always get this from reading what he has published.

Note, this is NOT to say that I would follow or agree with all I heard. But it is beneficial to know where each instructor is coming from, even if you don't always totally agree. You can always learn something this way that you otherwise wouldn't in a workshop setting.

[brian reed]

Hi Paddy,

I have done all 3 of your examples. I would favor example 2 if I have some excess cash. There are many Pros who offer individual instruction, whether for 1 day, or a week. the problem with your 3rd example, and I have been on many photo tours is you are bound by the schedule, trying to get to as many places as they can fit in, and there could be anywhere from 8 people and up, which means not a lot of one on one time, and people wandering out in your compositions, or as soon as you find something to photograph its time to leave. The last few years I've done your 1st example, which is fine if you know a location or have some good guide books or tips on places to go. Which I have found this forum to be very helpfull.
If you go the tour route choose wisely, there are some good photo tour companies and then I've heard horror stories on others.

good luck BR


www.brianreedphotography.com

[Paddy]

Hi Brian points taken.

But if i was going to do this i would do my tour to suit the photographers and not a schedule and spend as much of your money as possible on your accomodation and amenities.

The idea is for you to go away happy and contented, so my tour i think would be limited to 6 people so the photographers have plenty of time and less hassle as a lot of tours now go for around 11 people to get the money !!!!!

[Jim Rhoades]

Tour guide vs. L/F photographer:

The tour guide knows all the local hot spots. He may not know about light. Or how long it takes to set up a L/F camera. " OK, folks here's the canyon, now back on the bus, next stop Geronimo's teepee."

The L/F photographer knows to be at the hot spot before sunrise. Where the sun/moon will rise. When to have breakfast, lunch and dinner. Where to go based on weather conditions. What looks good in fog or rain. He knows he might have to change the itinerary from hour to hour. What to shoot on a windy day.

I live in New Jersey but know the Great Smokey Mountains well enough to run my own tour. If I were going to Ireland on a once in a lifetime trip I would book with Rosenstock.