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Ben Calwell
23-Oct-2006, 10:07
Having barely made it through math in high school, I offer up the following question.
How much HC110 (diluted from stock at 1:15) should I use to develop five sheets of 8x10 film in an 11x14 tray?
I've been developing them one at a time in an 8x10 tray, with 32-ounces total volume of solution (30 ounces of tap water, 2 ounces of HC110 from stock).
I checked Kodak's Web site, but my eyes glazed over, and I gave up.
I offer my thanks in advance for any adult supervision you could provide.

j.e.simmons
23-Oct-2006, 10:57
Are you talking about five sheets at a time? With that dilution of HC-110, I believe that whatever total amount of solution you'd need to achieve the depth you need in the tray would be plenty of developer to avoid exhaustion. In other words, if 32 ounces gives you enough developer in the tray to shuffle the sheets, it would not exhaust. But I doubt that 32 ounces is enough for an 11x14 tray - probably a liter or more. If you have some old negatives, try shuffling some in a tray of water and see how much total liquid you think you need.
juan

Ben Calwell
23-Oct-2006, 11:19
Juan -- yes, I'll be doing them all at the same time. I had thought that as long as I had enough solution for adequate depth in the tray that I would have, at my dilution, enough developer strength to do five sheets at a time -- wasn't sure, though.

PViapiano
23-Oct-2006, 12:15
Ben...

Please clarify for me...you're making a working solution from stock, right?

You're making the stock from 1 part concentrate to 3 parts water, right?

You are then mixing 1 part stock with 15 parts water, resulting in your final working solution?

Just remember that 3ml of HC110 syrup/concentrate has a development capacity of 80 sq inches of film or 1 8x10 sheet.

And another note...it is so much easier to use HC110 direct from concentrate as a one shot than to mix stock solutions and worry about its shelf life.

Ben Calwell
23-Oct-2006, 12:38
Yes, I use HC110 from the stock solution, not the concentrate. I've never tried it from the concentrate -- I always thought it would be too hard to measure accurately. The Kodak site, if I read it correctly, recommends using it from stock (no doubt because it will expire faster, requiring additional purchases of their product).
I've been using it from stock for so long, it would be hard for me to change horses mid-stream, so to speak.
It makes sense, though, to mix from the syrup, to avoid having the stock solution go bad after three months, or so.

PViapiano
23-Oct-2006, 14:12
Hi Ben...

I use a small medicinal syringe/eyedropper for measuring the concentrate, found at any drug store. It's pretty quick and easy, but I know what you mean about changing horses. At least I hope the capacity info was useful...

Cheers...

j.e.simmons
23-Oct-2006, 14:45
When I answered, I was thinking of mixing directly from concentrate, so you may need to think about exhaustion. I used HC-110b when I used it - which is one ounce of concentrate to 31 ounces of water. I measured the one ounce with a small graduate - no problem. One ounce is essentially the same as 30ml, so under PViapiano's formula, that would be enough for 10 sheets of 8x10 - more than enough capacity for five sheets.
juan

Ben Calwell
23-Oct-2006, 15:59
Gentlemen -- bear with me. So, if I'm using HC110 from the stock (not concentrate), then 1 ounce of stock solution per 8x10 sheet should be Ok? In other words, if I pour 75 ounces of water into an 11x14 tray and then pour in 5 ounces of HC110 stock solution for 1:15 ratio, that should be enough for five sheets?
Or, if I got brave and decided to do it from concentrate, what would be a comparable mixture (using syrup) to my tried and true 1:15 from stock?
Thanks for spoon feeding this to me.

eddie
23-Oct-2006, 20:23
hi ben,
i too have difficulty with all this math. check out this link. http://mysite.verizon.net/fowler/photo/hc110.htm
it is helpful. accordingto the site, you should be able to mix dilution A from concentrate to make your 1:15 solution.
you need atleast 3ml per 8x10 sheet. at dilution A,B,C,D you should have no problems with the min.

so, if you are using 75 oz of fluid (2218ml) you would need 4.6 oz (136.4ml) of concentrate. (i use google to convert from oz to ml. i type in "75oz in ml" and get 2218. it makes converting real easy) this will give you the 1:15 you are looking for. i hope this helps you.

you may consider using different dilutions. i use 1:119 with my 4x5 and i love it. i use it mainly for my pinole images cause i gain a bit of speed this way. i use dil. H (1:63) to do 8x10 in a tray so i do not have to stand in the dark for so long. another reason i use higher dilutions is that it makes the hc110 last way longer. i would guesss that dil. B would be about 2 times longer than dil. A and dil. H is about 4 times longer than dil. A. i hope this helps out. good luck and keep us posted.

eddie
ps. 5 sheets at a time make scratches a bit more likely. what i do is use two 8x10 trays and then i shuffle 2 sheets per tray. it makes it real easy. (2 sheets in one tray and 3 in the other will be fine too.)

eddie
23-Oct-2006, 20:46
if I pour 75 ounces of water into an 11x14 tray and then pour in 5 ounces of HC110 stock solution for 1:15 ratio, that should be enough for five sheets?

if you have 75 oz of water and add 5 oz of stock you will not have 1:15. right now i can not figure what dilution you have.....brain cramp. i think you are working with 1:45 doing what you just said. that is dil. E to get that dil. from concentrate you would need 1.5oz (44ml) of concentrate per 75 oz (2218ml) of water

Or, if I got brave and decided to do it from concentrate, what would be a comparable mixture (using syrup) to my tried and true 1:15 from stock?
Thanks for spoon feeding this to me.
ben,
use dil. E. that will give you your tried and true. keep us posted.

eddie

eddie

PViapiano
23-Oct-2006, 22:55
OK, Ben...

Here's your answer and I'll break it down for you:

You want to end up with 32 oz of total fluid for your tray, made up of 2 oz stock solution and 30 oz water. You mentioned that you would like to use your favorite dilution of 1 (stock solution) : 15 (water).

Since HC110 stock is made of 1 part concentrate and 3 parts water (1:3 ratio), let's use this to come up with our 2 oz of stock, which will make it very easy.

1/2 oz concentrate PLUS 1 1/2 oz water EQUALS 2 total oz of stock solution.

Adding 30 oz of water to the 2 oz stock solution EQUALS 32 oz working solution to use in your tray.

1/2 oz EQUALS 14.78 ml. This is how much raw concentrate is in your dilution.

It takes 3ml of HC110 (in any dilution) to process 80 sq inches of film.

So, your dilution will be able to process just under 5 sheets of 8x10.

To tell the truth I'd probably add a hair more stock solution to my final working solution and call it a day...close enough.

-----------------------------------------

You are essentially using Dilution H, an unofficial dilution, which is 1:63 from concentrate. I always use this dilution with roll film and sheet film, mainly with TXP 320.

PViapiano
23-Oct-2006, 23:03
Eddie...

Dilution E (1:47 from concentrate) will not yield Ben's requirement for an equivalent to his 1:15 from stock.

It gets tricky because you have to read Kodak's tech sheet correctly and understand that there are many different ratios being discussed and whether they are mixed from concentrate or working solution makes all the difference.

See my post above...

robc
23-Oct-2006, 23:07
I don't see why this is so complicated.
Your working strength dilution is between Dilution E and Dilution F according to the kodak hc110 chart:
941
so erring on the side of caution you would assume dilution F but using E will likely not cause a problem because manufacturers are conservative with these figures.

The capacity chart then says that for Dilution E you need 1 litre of working strength developer for 1.5 sheets of 8x10. For 5 sheets you will need 3 and a third litres of working strength solution. Again because of the conservative figures given by Kodak I think 3 litres will do it for 1+15 from stock (stock being 1+3 from concentrate).
942

Or putting it really simply using the chart, you need a gallon of working strength solution E for 5 sheets of 8x10 and I think a gallon will also be enough for your dilution of 1+15 from stock.

this is 128oz of working strength solution. So:

128/16 = 8 therefore you need 8 oz of stock and 120 oz of water for 1+15.

If you want to err on the side of caution then use the working dilution F figures which means 5 litres of working strength which is 170 oz which we round up to 176 for simplicity.

176/16 = 11 therefore you would need 11oz of stock and 165oz of water for 1+15.

PViapiano
24-Oct-2006, 00:04
Robc...

Now that I look at the capacity charts you posted, I question my statement of 3ml concentrate per 80 sq inches of film. I believe I got that info from the HC110/Covington site, but that doesn't necessarily jibe with the data sheet, does it?

I use Dilution H for 4x5 development using 12ml concentrate to 738ml water for a total of 750ml in my 8x10 size tray.

It's so easy to use HC110 straight from concentrate. I can't see why anyone would want to use it any other way...

Ben...maybe you should read this thread and look at the last post:

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0038BB&tag=

robc
24-Oct-2006, 00:36
the problems arise because manufacturers are very conservative about the capacity of developers and people then try and squeeze every last bit out of their developer. Result is a huge range of numbers which people think will work.
My advice is not to try and squeeze too much out the developer capacity because you will hit the limit sometimes and not others. Use Kodaks figures but round down instead of erring on the side of caution and you should be OK. Fact is that HC110 is very cheap so why risk your negatives by trying to squeeze to much use out of the developer.

The Dilution E figures work out to 16ml of concentrate to 80sq in of film. Or 0.5oz (rounded) so that would be 2.5oz for 5 sheets of 8x10 which at 1+63 = 160oz working strength which is between the two figures I gave based on kodaks numbers but is a bit more economical than the figures given in the thread link you gave. So I think your 3ml is somewhat optimistic.

PViapiano
24-Oct-2006, 00:39
OK...one more shot at this:

I worked out the Kodak capacity data and came up with 15.4 ml (rounded) of concentrate for each sheet (Dilution E)

And...12 ml for each sheet (Dilution A)

Where in the world did Covington get 3 ml per 80 sq inches from?

PViapiano
24-Oct-2006, 00:48
Robc...

I posted my last comment before reading yours!

That's interesting, because I normally use Dilution H in a stainless tank to process 120 format, 7ml concentrate in 450ml total liquid and it works just fine.

robc
24-Oct-2006, 01:01
Like I said, the manufacturers are very conservative about capacity and given the maths involved and people experimenting it is probably a good job that they are or there would be a lot of ruined negatives.

And your 120 film is only approx 75% the area of an 8x10

Ben Calwell
24-Oct-2006, 05:08
I really appreciate everyone's time and help on this. Eddie, if my math is correct, I would have a 1:15 ratio with 75 ounces of water and 5 ounces of HC 110 from stock.
Think of it this way: there are five, 15-ounce units of water in 75 total ounces of water. Adding one ounce of HC 110 for each one of those five units of 15 ounces works out to a 1:15 ratio.

Ben Calwell
24-Oct-2006, 08:42
One more question, and I swear I'll shut up about this.
It makes sense to start mixing from concentrate, and dilution B looks easiest to figure, for me.
As I understand it, I will mix one ounce of concentrate into 32 ounces of water. So, carrying that further, if I, say, pour 64 ounces of water into an 11x14 tray, I would add two ounces of the concentrate to make diution B.
If I pour 96 ounces in, I would add three ounces of concentrate to make dilution B.
Ninety-six ounces would surely provide enough depth to submerge five sheets of 8x10, but would that provide the needed developer energy?

Amund BLix Aaeng
24-Oct-2006, 08:53
Ninety-six ounces would surely provide enough depth to submerge five sheets of 8x10, but would that provide the needed developer energy?

No problem at all.

eddie
24-Oct-2006, 18:11
man! i am glad that processing B&W negs is as forgiving as it is! we have 4-5 different mixologists amoung us and we are all getting great results using different mixes. bravo!

eddie

(my fav. mixes are: foma 100 in 119:1 for 18 min for pinholes. and 22 min for lens shots. for fp4 it is the same, and for Tmax 100 i use D76 stock for 11min)

Ben Calwell
25-Oct-2006, 06:29
So -- is my idea of using three ounces of HC-110 concentrate in 96 ounces of water Ok for five sheets of 8x10 film? This would equal, I think, dilution B from concentrate.
Again, I thank everyone for their help on this.

robc
25-Oct-2006, 08:29
LOOK AT THE CAPACITY CHART I POSTED!

its so simple. It says that for for Dilution B 1 gallon of working solution is sufficient for 10 sheets of 8x10. If 1 gallon is enough for 10 sheets then half a gallon is enough for 5 sheets. Half a gallon is 64oz. So you tell us, do YOU think that 96oz of B working solution is enough.

Amund BLix Aaeng
25-Oct-2006, 13:10
LOOK AT THE CAPACITY CHART I POSTED!

its so simple. It says that for for Dilution B 1 gallon of working solution is sufficient for 10 sheets of 8x10. If 1 gallon is enough for 10 sheets then half a gallon is enough for 5 sheets. Half a gallon is 64oz. So you tell us, do YOU think that 96oz of B working solution is enough.

Rob, your chart says 20 sheets per gallon. OP is using his HC-110 one-shot, not replenished. Makes it even clearer...

Charts aside, Jock Sturges is developing 24 sheets of TXP in two liters(67oz) of dil B(almost, a 1:28 mix from syrup)

robc
25-Oct-2006, 13:18
Rob, your chart says 20 sheets per gallon. OP is using his HC-110 one-shot, not replenished. Makes it even clearer...

Charts aside, Jock Sturges is developing 24 sheets of TXP in two liters(67oz) of dil B(almost, a 1:28 mix from syrup)

go back and have another look at what dilution Ben says he want to use and then go and have another look at the chart and then come back and tell me what the chart says for the dilution Ben wants to use.

Amund BLix Aaeng
25-Oct-2006, 13:32
I misread between tanks and trays, do`h...

Ben Calwell
26-Oct-2006, 05:12
Thanks for everything, fellows -- case closed.