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PMahoney
15-Oct-2006, 08:13
Before I start, I know toning, whether digitally or not, is a matter of personal preference. But I thought it was worth asking how many tone their digital scans for print using more traditional tonal looks.
If you do tone your scans, what method or approach do you use? Quadtones, curves adjustments in RGB, etc?
Also, do you find yourself consistantly using the same tone adjustment from one scan to the next or do you vary it depending on the image and its characteristics.
Below I've attached two images: the first is what the scan originally looked like with slight curves and contrast adjustments and the second using Ken Lee's Warm Bronze Quadtone (which is one of my favorites, thanks Ken).

Hillsborough River State Park, Florida
Shen-Hao 4x5 w/Roden 150mm
1s @ f/32

Walter Calahan
15-Oct-2006, 09:45
I don't tone, but if I did, I'd do it in LAB color so as not to infulence the B&W detail. The A & B channnels only adjust the color. I'd use curves to change the two channels.

To back up, I scan my B&W as RGB color negs, then desaturate the color.

Kirk Gittings
15-Oct-2006, 10:03
I use the tint adjustment in Imageprint which also incorporates a split tone function separating the tone in the highlights and shadows on a fully changeable percentage basis.

IMO every image requires a different application. I recently did a special limited edition for a museum sale of three images. I wanted them to work as a set even though two were predominantly light tones vs. one which was predominately dark. The warm tone highlights of the lighter images was negligable on the darker print so the ratio of the splitone mix had to be changed on the darker print to include a broader range of tones to be tinted. This can be done without IP too but it is a bit complicated.

Having said all that though I often think initially that I want a strong tone as you have shown above, I always back off to a very slight tone, cool in the shadows and warm in the highlights which gives a bit of three dimensionality.

Paul Butzi has some useful stuff on his site related to doing this with normal PS tools rather than IP. If you use his curves in a separate layer you can easily adjust their intensity.

Ken Lee
15-Oct-2006, 10:51
...do you find yourself consistantly using the same tone adjustment from one scan to the next or do you vary it depending on the image and its characteristics.

I rarely use my own curves at 100% strength. After converting to quadtone, I often convert back to RGB and then apply a layer which lowers the saturation by as much as 50%, depending on the image.

The page which shows these curves has been updated (http://www.kenleegallery.com/bronze.htm) in recent months, to illustrate this approach.

Once you are back in RGB mode, you can cool the shadows, warm the highlights, or perform any other adjustments you like.

Brian Ellis
15-Oct-2006, 13:01
Hillsborough River State Park! The only decent site for landscape photography in all of Hillsborough County (at least the only one I ever found, which may say more about me than it does about the County). I must have photographed the area you've included here at least 20 times. Whenever I'd get desperate to go out and make a photograph and couldn't think of a place to go I'd often end up here. Did you flip the negative? I can't figure out any other way of having the water running towards you and also running from left to right (I don't mean to suggest there's anything wrong with flipping the negative, I'm just curious since I know the area so well).

But I've digressed. One of the many reasons I like printing with Photoshop is the ability to try so many different ways of toning. I like the Ken Lee bronze curve that you've shown here and I use it occasionally as well as the other curves that Ken has made available. I also use duotoning and tritoning curves in Photoshop. As Kirk said, I think that each photograph calls for its own tones and methodology, I haven't found a universal system that I liked with all photographs.

Leonard Metcalf
16-Oct-2006, 04:36
Until recently I was toning using curves, and am now printing from a greyscale image through Quadtone Rip, and creating the tones through the mixtures of warm and cool curves.

paulr
16-Oct-2006, 07:40
I use quadtone inks that have their own color (based on the size of the carbon particles ... similar to how untoned silver can be warm or cool).

This eliminates choices, unless you're printing on different papers. But it also reduces headaches. I spent years of my life in the darkroom, and just outside of it, holding prints under every imaginable color of bulb, squinting, wondering if this print is really greener than the last one or if I'm going crazy. Give a little, get a little. At least now I know the prints will go with each other.

If I was using CMYK inks or some equivalent, then it would be more like the darkroom--a range of choices, with all the corresponding benefits (and frustrations). I think it would be silly to have all those colors of ink and not feel that your at liberty to use them.

Gordon Moat
16-Oct-2006, 10:28
I am guessing you just mean for inkjet printing. In such a situation, I would recommend toning, since a true B/W without some colour cast is not possible in most images when using colour inksets. Many people will not see the difference when a print is mounted and under glass. I have no desire to debate this, nor to start a war about inkjet printing, if you don't see the colour cast on a B/W inkjet print, then no worries.

If going to publication, or offset, then the recommendation is using Duotone or Tritone. Choose the Pantone ink you want to mix with black to create a plate to give the resulting toned image. You can control the Pantone plate(s) curve to vary the mixing with black. It is recommended to have printing samples showing Duotone and Tritone mixes before attempting, since most hard copy proofs from such converted image files will be poor simulations for actual Pantone inks.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

robc
16-Oct-2006, 10:29
no silver gelatin print was ever completely neutral. Digital allows that possibility but why you would want a truly grayscale image I don't know. Just look at all the papers and developers and printing techniques that are available to put colour into a black and white silver gelatin print. Why wouldn't you want to tone a print? or Why would you want a completely neutral print?

PMahoney
16-Oct-2006, 17:33
First, thank you all for your responses. I'm relatively new to film photography, having only been practicing LF for approximately a year now. I develop my own negs, but I've unfortunately never had the opportunity to create darkroom prints (don't have the space or tools to do so). Whereas I have been practice digital photography for longer and have had the tools necessary for digital output (Epson 4990 w/ an Epson 2200). When I first started in B&W film, I was somewhat dissatisfied with completely neutral prints, but loved the look of what I was seeing in traditionally toned prints. I would agree with what many of you have said and feel that toning to some degree is important. I was just curious how many actually did it.

Kirk-
Thanks for the advice. I have visited Paul Butzi's website (a great resource) when I first started out with toning, but found (at least with my experience level) to have less control of the process than with duo-, tri-, or quadtoning. Ultimately, I think I would like to find a program that gives such control as ImagePrint during the output process. I'll have to give it a shot.

Ken-
Thank you for the help. I had never considered controling the intensity through adjusting saturation in RGB (and have since visited your website to review). Great idea! I've yet to print and compare, but I can already tell it will look nice.

Brian-
Yup! You're absolutely right. It is by far the best place I've found in Hillsborough County and one of the best in the central part of the state! Saturday was the first time I had ever visited and I took easily three times the photos I normally do on a days outing with a higher yield of what I would deem good photos. BTW, the neg IS flipped horizontally. I started working on it before I realized I hadn't flipped and when I did, I didn't like it. I hope I am not violating some law of landscape photography! Any recommendations for good places to go throughout the state that you've had some success in the past?

Leonard-
Do you think the quadtone RIP with Piezo inks is worth it? I've heard tremendous things about it, but seeing as I haven't pursued selling photos, I can't legitimize the expenditure (or better yet my wife!).

Thank you all for your responses,
Peter

Ken Lee
16-Oct-2006, 17:53
Here is a new look I have been working on: "Tintype".

I may get flamed for this, but it's fairly easy to do in Photoshop.


http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/portraits/tintype.jpg

David Luttmann
16-Oct-2006, 18:04
Nice Ken. Now we just need to add some distortion and edge "flaws" and it's a good mimic...although Ive never been a fan of the tintype look. Love your bronze settings though...and I agree, I reduce the saturation somewhat to allow for a look I prefer.

I recall a thread way back that got nasty when it came to mentioning digital toning. Nice to see many have gotten over it!

David Luttmann
16-Oct-2006, 18:04
oops, I forgot....do you have the tintype curve ready for download?

Ken Lee
16-Oct-2006, 19:04
Part of the look of Tintype and others from the early days, is rather shallow depth of field. This is best achieved when the photo is shot, but one can always add the same, using one of the various Blur functions, as I did here. The trick is to get the right amount of blur, and to use the Extract tool to select a region that will stay in focus.

Another element of the look, is a somewhat compressed tonal range, with slightly empty low values. That can be done by tweaking the contrast Curves, with Levels, or by adjusting contrast and brightness, etc.

Another component is the color scheme. If you use a fairly recent version of Photoshop, you can use the Photo Filter tool. For this image, I used a RGB value of 194, 164, 136.

If you like, I can make a Photoshop "action" to perform the adjustments to contrast, and the change to the color scheme, etc.

TLGG1
16-Oct-2006, 19:13
You are not toning. Tintype has been done by wet plate photographers for years on real tin, not faked.

Why not admit it, you are coloring the pictures, not toning.

Come up with your own vocabulary to describe accurately what you are doing with your pixelography and digital printing and quit stealing from photography.

David Luttmann
16-Oct-2006, 19:13
I never decline an offer of a premade action :-)

David Luttmann
16-Oct-2006, 19:14
Oh, I see one has crawled out of the cracks to attempt his pound of flesh....shame there is no ignore button.

David Luttmann
16-Oct-2006, 19:16
You are not toning. Tintype has been done by wet plate photographers for years on real tin, not faked.

Why not admit it, you are coloring the pictures, not toning.

Come up with your own vocabulary to describe accurately what you are doing with your pixelography and digital printing and quit stealing from photography.

Hmmmm, "pixelography"? I'll make of point of referring to silver based imaging as "grainography" when responding to your posts from now on.

Ken Lee
16-Oct-2006, 19:52
I think the author of the thread was pretty clear about the ambiguity of these terms, and specified his area of interest, which he called "tonal looks".

I would be surprised if any readers were confused or baffled by this discussion, or by any of the terminology that we have used in discussing the variety of tonal looks that digital imaging allows.

Where confusion can arise, is when we insist on sticking to rigid definitions of things - especially in Art, which like Life itself, evolves through cross-fertilization.

When we listen to Rachmaninoff's "Variations on a Theme of Paganini", to whom are we listening ? The Italian composer who penned the original melody in the 18th century ? The Russian composer who picked it up in the 20th century, and turned it into something rather different ? The piano soloist and the conductor, who performed it before a live audience in the 21st century ? The recording engineers who captured the recording ? The sound system through which we listen ?

Countless listeners have enjoyed the piece, each in their own way, and according to their own capacity. It can never be performed twice the same way, nor can anyone hear it the same way twice.

Things may not be as rigid as we would like.

David Luttmann
16-Oct-2006, 20:02
True Ken. As to the definition of "toning", the dictionary also describes it as the coloring of prints....thus, even digital coloring can be referred to as toning. Rather than worrying about rigid definitions which will pass as time goes on, I'm more concerned with obtaining the look that I like. I've also used Dave Ward's Tintype action for PS to obtain some interesting results.

tim atherton
16-Oct-2006, 20:08
You are not toning. Tintype has been done by wet plate photographers for years on real tin, not faked.

Why not admit it, you are coloring the pictures, not toning.

Come up with your own vocabulary to describe accurately what you are doing with your pixelography and digital printing and quit stealing from photography.

Ha haa - you're funny!

PMahoney
17-Oct-2006, 08:43
Ken-
Well put on all accounts, but as you stated, my original intent was to see how many toned in there digital output and if so, what method they use.

TLGG1-
If this doesn't even apply to you, then why even respond? Toning IS a form of coloring, albeit a more selective one whether using metals in traditional printing or in PS.

Peter

Greg Miller
17-Oct-2006, 12:07
I generally tone, and generally use a hue saturation layer set to "colorize". You can adjust hue and saturation to taste. A hue value around 40 yields a sepia look.

paulr
17-Oct-2006, 13:25
"tone" means color ... how exactly is toning different from coloring?

coloring monochrome images actually predates photography by many centuries. printmakers working in ink used all kinds of pigments to vary their lines and chiaroscuro from basic black.

which brings full circle to some of these other points. printing in ink (tinted or otherwise) isn't some upstart process, but actually belongs to a set of traditions going back thousands of years.

as does borrowing terms from other media. "Sepia" for example. This term did not orignate with a photographic sulfide toning process; it's actually a pigment derived from the glands of a cuttlefish, first used as a pigment for printing inks. there's never actually been any sepia used in photography, but the term became associated with a certain color, and photographers borrowed it.

to my knowledge, this never caused any uproar among grumpy old lithographers.

paulr
17-Oct-2006, 13:41
On a related note, ink printing as a photographic process goes back a little farther than the humble inkjet print. Photogravure predates both gelatin siver and platinum by over forty years.

David Luttmann
17-Oct-2006, 17:49
"tone" means color ... how exactly is toning different from coloring?

coloring monochrome images actually predates photography by many centuries. printmakers working in ink used all kinds of pigments to vary their lines and chiaroscuro from basic black.

which brings full circle to some of these other points. printing in ink (tinted or otherwise) isn't some upstart process, but actually belongs to a set of traditions going back thousands of years.

as does borrowing terms from other media. "Sepia" for example. This term did not orignate with a photographic sulfide toning process; it's actually a pigment derived from the glands of a cuttlefish, first used as a pigment for printing inks. there's never actually been any sepia used in photography, but the term became associated with a certain color, and photographers borrowed it.

to my knowledge, this never caused any uproar among grumpy old lithographers.


Maybe traditional printers should stop borrowing terms from inkjet printers ;-)

Bruce Watson
18-Oct-2006, 08:21
I use quadtone inks that have their own color (based on the size of the carbon particles ... similar to how untoned silver can be warm or cool).

Exactly. I use the PiezoTones. Fixed but uniform color. Nice, easy, predictable. Works for me, YMMV.

gameface
18-Oct-2006, 15:37
Do a lot of LF photographers do a lot of post production work on their photos??? I've been shooting 35mm for about 6 years and tried digital but I just don't like it. I feel like I'm cheating (no offense, just personal pref.) I'm starting out in LF. Do a lot of LF photographers use digital/post production stuff for their work???

Ken Lee
18-Oct-2006, 15:51
The terms pre- and post- are relative.

Many shoot film, then scan + print digitally. Some are all-digital. Others are all-analog. Some people scan their film, then make digital negatives, and print on analog materials.

I'm not sure who could give us definitive numbers as to the breakdown.

I consider the process of scanning and printing part of production - as well as matting, framing, and display lighting. From my perspective, post-production means viewing.

Marko
19-Oct-2006, 10:09
Do a lot of LF photographers do a lot of post production work on their photos??? I've been shooting 35mm for about 6 years and tried digital but I just don't like it. I feel like I'm cheating (no offense, just personal pref.) I'm starting out in LF. Do a lot of LF photographers use digital/post production stuff for their work???

Cheating?

Whom? Why? How?

Photography is art, and a visual art at that, therefore it is the look of the final result that matters. How one gets there is utterly unimportant, the process is just the means to that end and everybody should use what suits them best, according to their preference and abilities.

Then there is photography as craft, and that is something else entirely. That's where the process is everything and that's where you see all the catfights such as digital vs. analog or pyro, to mention just the most prominent.

Kirk Gittings
19-Oct-2006, 12:29
I do alot of post production work on my silver images, extensive burning and dodging, masking, general and selective negative intensification, toning spotting etc. is that "cheating"? I agree with Marko:


Photography is art, and a visual art at that, therefore it is the look of the final result that matters. How one gets there is utterly unimportant, the process is just the means to that end and everybody should use what suits them best, according to their preference and abilities.

paulr
19-Oct-2006, 12:40
Anything that comes after Pre-pre-visualization (the photograph I see in my mind while I'm lying in bed, after whacking the snooze button) counts as post-production.

And it all feels like cheating. So no more of that stuff. I'm keeping it pure from now on.

Greg Miller
19-Oct-2006, 17:20
I use quadtone inks that have their own color (based on the size of the carbon particles ... similar to how untoned silver can be warm or cool).

This eliminates choices, unless you're printing on different papers. But it also reduces headaches. I spent years of my life in the darkroom, and just outside of it, holding prints under every imaginable color of bulb, squinting, wondering if this print is really greener than the last one or if I'm going crazy. Give a little, get a little. At least now I know the prints will go with each other.


I think that is true in the short term but may be problematic in the long term. If the vendor changes or discontinues the ink line then you may not be able to reproduce similar results again.

With cmy/rgb inks, assuming a good printer profile, you should always get similar results going forward. A toned print with specific rgb values in the source file should always print the same assuming the printer is capable of acruately printing those rgb values. The only theoretic change would be if a color that is out of gamut today because of technology limitations becomes availble in the future. Probably not a big factor in monochrome printing except in regards to DMax

paulr
19-Oct-2006, 17:50
I think that is true in the short term but may be problematic in the long term.

Sure ... and the paper being changed or discontinued is at least as likely.

However, the tonality of the quadtone image is so much better than what's possible with cmyk that this drawback isn't all that interesting to me. The permanence advantage is nice, too. If the color shifts slightly someday down the road, I could live with that.