5x7? Carl Zeiss Jena Universal Palmos - HELP!

[Rafael Garcia]

I just got hold of the camera above. It was a bargain and seems to have extensive front tilt, drop bed, front rise. It is all metal (built like a tank), has a bubble level and, although heavy, folds up (if I can figure out how to fold it again - can't find how to do it yet) into a solid, practically indestructible box. The bellows is in usable condition, with some repairable corner holes - I will replace it if I get serious about the camera. It seems like a great restoration/reconstruction project. I have several questions, though:

1) How do I fold it? Edit: I found out how; pushing on the braces to unlock them.
2) The camera was modified by replacing it's original back with a Burke & James 5x7 back. The original back has been carefully tooled to accept the B&J back and still retain the original catch mechanism, and the B&J wood back is attached to the modified original by four brass hooks, - What was the original format? I've found it listed in 4x5, but not in 5x7. The 4x5 ia 1903 to 1909...
3) The heavy metal lensboard has a catch that I presume is to remove the lensboard by sliding it up. The spring must have failed a long time ago, because it has no sping action and the lensboard only slides part of the way before encountering an obstruction. Does anyone know anything about how to remove this? Edit: The catch was a lock; the lensboard is removed by unlocking it, which allows you to pull up and out, as in most other cameras. The slide is "extra" rise/fall!
4) Any info on this beauty will be greatly appreciated.
5) I found a small metal scale loose inside. It looks like a focusing scale and has 2,3,4,5,7,10,15, infinity in a straight line, about an inch long. No visible place where this could have been attached. Clues?

Edit: Well, it appears to be quite collectible (if it were in good shape). From a Zeiss website:

SZTS #50 Issue#94
UNIVERSAL PALMOS-(Carl Zeiss/Jena)Circa: (1905) Scarce 9X12cm. Folding Plate Field Camera. 135mm 4.5 Dogmar in Dial-Set Compur. Front Plate Drops for Wide Angle Optics. Removable Lensboard. Quick Change Back. w/Film Pack Adapter #508, Cut Film Holders.

This is an outstanding large field camera and one of the first "Zeiss" cameras from the Palmos Series. Leaf-shuttered in the lens, it features a unique pop-off back for rotating the film without changing the camera position. A Collector's Prize.

This from an auction website:
Universal-Palmos Outfit, 1903 Carl Zeiss Jena, Nr. 8084, for 13 x 18 cm. Excellent condition, obviously never used! Still with original tag showing "Z.U.P. 13/18, 525" = Zeiss Universal-Palmos 13/18, order no. 525. With Protar lens 35 cm, Compound shutter, Newton viewfinder with reflex mirror, 6 plate holders, small accessories and original outfit case. This camera was a gift from Zeiss to Dr. Rudolf Loher, Munich. One of the rarest Zeiss cameras. - And: Another Protar lens with Tele Negative lens, which does not fit to this camera.

This from yet another website:
UNIVERSAL PALMOS-(Carl Zeiss/Jena)Circa: (1905) Scarce 9X12cm. Folding Plate Field Camera. 135mm 4.5 Dogmar in Dial-Set Compur. Front Plate Drops for Wide Angle Optics. Removable Lensboard. Quick Change Back. w/Film Pack Adapter #508, Cut Film Holders & Case.

It's already been modified (the back) so I guess it's ok to go ahead and take off the worn leather and work with it to make it usable again... What do ya'all think?

[Donald Qualls]

Assuming the distance between 2 and 3 is similar to that between 15 and infinity (or even wider), yes, that's probably a distance scale, and it was likely just glued to the bed in a location that could reference against the whichever standard moves for focusing. As long as you use the same lens it was made for, it'll be accurate if you simply focus to infinity, mark a reference point on the movable standard, and glue the scale back in place with the infinity mark matching the reference point (and the small numbers away from the fixed standard, of course).

Naturally, you'd need a different scale for each lens you might mount; in addition, the retooling of the back would have changed the position of the moving standard at infinity focus even with the same lens, which may be why the scale was inside the camera instead of glued on the rail in its (presumably) original position.

[Rafael Garcia]

Thanks...that's what I thought, except...this was screwed on, not glued. Still has the funny square nuts on the bolts! There is no place on the bed with any holes for it, so I'm still looking!

Here are some photos:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h285/ragc01/Dsc00062c.jpg
There is tape in the first two folds of the bellows, both sides. Didn't notice it at first. There does not seem to be any light leakage/pinholes, though, although one corner looks like it should leak. The bellows are leather on the outside, rubberized fabric inside.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h285/ragc01/Dsc00059c.jpg
The original back (showing the mating side, not the modified side) and the B&J back, and a back view with bellows folded.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h285/ragc01/Dsc00067c.jpg
The focusing scale (see the edge of the square nut?)

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h285/ragc01/ZeissIkonUniversalPalmosc.jpg
What it looked like when it was new, over 100 years ago!

I feel bad about messing with it, but it was meant to take photos, and to do it it needs to be fixed with non-original parts, unless someone knows where the originals can be found....

[Ernest Purdum]

The Universal Palmos is the ancestor of the Universal Jewel (or Juwel) one of the finest large format tools available up into the late pre-WWII period. The name was given to both 9X12 and 13X18 sizes, but the two were really quite different from each other.

Congratulations on your find. It does have enough movements to be usable for many purposes and folds up into a very sturdy box, particularly if you fashion some sort of a groundglass protector.

[James E Galvin]

Could the square nuts slide into the rail or some groove?
Then you just tighten to hold in place, loosen to slide along and adjust.

[Rafael Garcia]

Could the square nuts slide into the rail or some groove?
Then you just tighten to hold in place, loosen to slide along and adjust.

Indeed, there is a raised slot parallel to the focusing track. I bet you are right! In fact, I just tested it now and it's a perfect fit. What's more, there is this bar I thought was a lever to push the lensboard back and forth, but it's actually an indicator that moves over the scale. As you pointed out, it is an adjustable scale, useful for any lens. Now that I know where to look, I see the indicator over the scale in the photo I posted of the "new" camera, right behind the right-side spring towards the front of the bed. Wow! 100 year old technology is impressive.

The camera came with a B&J 5x7 back with a lid. I want to use it as a 4x5, and have a (very heavy)4x5 Graphic View I holder that I made a reducing back for my 5x7 Korona with, that I may use on this one instead. It is solid, with a spring-actuated lid.
It may be the perfect pairing for total indestructibility!

[Rafael Garcia]

Waiting for my lens/shutter to arrive...

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h285/ragc01/Dsc00083c.jpg

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h285/ragc01/Dsc00084c.jpg

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h285/ragc01/Dsc00082c.jpg

Serial No 8098 puts it only 14 cameras after this one, from 1903, so it's very probable a first year of manufacture (1903):

"Universal-Palmos Outfit, 1903 Carl Zeiss Jena, Nr. 8084, for 13 x 18 cm. Excellent condition, obviously never used! Still with original tag showing "Z.U.P. 13/18, 525" = Zeiss Universal-Palmos 13/18, order no. 525. With Protar lens 35 cm, Compound shutter, Newton viewfinder with reflex mirror, 6 plate holders, small accessories and original outfit case. This camera was a gift from Zeiss to Dr. Rudolf Loher, Munich. One of the rarest Zeiss cameras."

The lensboard risers have two markers - horizontal lines - with the letters 'N' and 'W' above the corresponding line. 'N' is on the lower line, which, with the lensboard top edge aligned with it, places the lensboard on the "neutral" position, so I'm assuming the German word for neutral also starts with 'N'. The upper mark with the 'W' is a mystery to me. Could someone help with the meaning of these letters?

[Donald Qualls]

I wouldn't think the scale would be useful with any lens, because the focus travel changes with focal length. You could (now that you know the secret) easily make a scale for any lens you want to mount on this camera, of course, but the original is probably for the standard "normal" lens that came with the camera -- on a 5x7 or 13x18, normal would be around 210 mm, but it looks like yours was set up for portraits with that 35 cm Protar. It should be possible to calculate whether the scale matches the lens, but it's easier to just set the lens at infinity, mount the scale with the infinity mark correctly placed, and see if the focus at 2 feet agrees between scale and ground glass. If it doesn't, the scale is probably for a 210 mm...

The N and W might be positions for "normal" and "wide" lens; some rise with a wide would avoid having too much out of focus foreground in a shot, and depending how wide "wide" is, might also be necessary to keep the bed out of the field of view. Otherwise, the W might be the upper limit of coverage with the original lens for this camera (which was likely a 210 mm Tessar). I can see the marks on the "new" image in your first post, and they're about the right spacing for the latter. That 35 cm Protar probably has more coverage than that... ;)

[Rafael Garcia]

Right now I have a 127mm Ektar on it, but have not done any checking on focus at infinity (it's nightime here, and I just got done installing the lens). The "new" camera (with the Protar) is not mine, but a photo from an auction, showing what the camera should look like. Mine is the one without lens in the photos above your most recent response. I have since refinished the lensboard, and cleaned it out a bit more, so it is looking much better. For now I'm going wide angle with it, and will try my 7 1/2" (180mm?) Wollensak on it later.

The 'W' and 'N' makes sense... I will report. Thanks!