LF Polaroid characteristics: professional advice needed!

[cyclicaljoi6]

Hello all, I am working at a small design agency, and we're working on a design concept for which I'd like to get some professional advice. We have been commissioned to come up with an invitation card concept for which the theme is time, and we came up with the idea of using large format polaroids--the ones which require the peeling of a protective film to trigger image formation--that contain the necessary party details. The idea is that we'll have a photographer shoot an image with the polaroid, leave the protective film untouched, and send it to the guests, who will have instructions to peel away the film and see the image appear slowly before their eyes.

Unfortunately--and this might be evident already from my language--we are quite unfamiliar with the characteristics of these polaroids, and are not sure at all whether this might work. Will the polaroid still retain its image even if say--the protective film is peeled quite a few days after the image is shot? If so, how might its image be affected or altered?

Thank you very much for all your assistance!!

[Jack Flesher]

Unfortunately, the Polaroid you are describing needs to pass through a roller system to develop before peeling. The roller starts the development process and then the development needs to be timed based on temperature -- usually around 60 - 90 seconds. So unless you plan on shipping the roller/processor with the Polaroid shot, your idea probably won't work.

[cyclicaljoi6]

Now, please forgive me for what I know would be a totally ignorant question, but are there uh, any polaroids that can do something like this without a roller system

[Walter Calahan]

No !

[cyclicaljoi6]

ok....so just to confirm:

1. these polaroids require a roller to start the chemical process
2. the process, once started, takes 60-90 seconds

is this bracket the timeframe within which I need to peel off the film? now, what happens after the 60-90 second time frame?


many, many thanks beforehand!

[Jack Flesher]

Yes -- the print continues to develop until it is peeled, so if you don't peel it then it will over-develop.

[Ralph Barker]

The concept is clever, but, as noted, impractical using only the 4x5 Polaroid sheets. You might consider talking to your printer to explore the posibility of sandwiching the processed Polaroids in simulated paper sleaves that the recipient would peel apart. My guess would be that while possible, they would be rather expensive, however.

[cyrus]

Actually I was recently told in a photography class that (at least with type 55 BW polaroid films), the idea that you risk "overdevelopment" if you wait longer than 30 sec before peeling the film is a myth.

Having had no experience with this, I can't judge the veracity of this statement myself.

[Donald Qualls]

The other issue with Type 55, however, is that the print must be coated promptly or it will deteriorate in a matter of hours. And I can speak from experience that the other B&W Polaroid materials (at least assuming the 4x5 size is similar to the same-speed 3x4 pack films) *can* overdevelop, and further will likely be impossible to peel 24 hours after development, because the gel will have dried and glued the negative to the print.

[Steve Hamley]

Typical polaroid materials also squeeze out residual developer in the process, and that developer is present when you peel the print apart. So even if you had a practical way to make it work, having clients that aren't aware of that (slightly) caustic "goop" on part of the peel-apart paper might not be something your lawyers would particularly like.

Polaroid's caution on many peel-apart films is: Caution This film uses a small amount of caustic paste. If any paste appears, avoid contact with skin, eyes and mouth and keep away from children and animals. If you get some paste on your skin, wipe it off immediately, then wash with water to avoid an alkali burn. If eye contact occurs, quickly wash the area with plenty of water and see a doctor. Keep discarded materials away from children, animals, clothing and furniture.

I've never experienced even a tingle from short-term contact, but then I know to wash my hands if I get residual developer on skin.

Data sheets here:

http://www.polaroid.com/service/filmdatasheets/4_5/index.html

Steve

[Gordon Moat]

I have done many Polaroid manipulations, some of which require handling the film in somewhat unusual ways. Get that stuff on your hands, and that paste caustic does burn a little. I would think another issue of mailing these, even if a way could be found to get it to work, is that the chemicals could come out.

One way the OP could make this work would be pack films, though only using the last shot. In other words, getting to the last piece of film in the pack, the OP takes a photo, and then in a dark bag removes the pack cartridge from the camera. Then while keeping light from striking the cartridge, packages the complete cartridge into a light tight container. Next place instructions for the final recipiant to pull the tab from the side of the package, which will pull the Polaroid packet near some rollers placed into the packaging, then that breaks the chemical pod and the process begins. The rollers can be found separate as replacement items for Polaroid holders, though the lowest cost would be tearing apart old Polaroid pack films cameras. My guess at doing this, even canabalizing old Polaroid cameras to send with the film pack cartridge, would be near $20 per mailer (plus shipping). So there is probably a way to do this, but it would be really expensive.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

[Pat Kearns]

Here is another idea on your polaroid idea that is a little more labor intensive on your part and doesn't have the problems of rollers or chemicals mentioned in earlier posts. First, have your photographer photograph the details of the event and process the original polaroid print. Then take some stiff black paper and cut it to the same design of a polaroid holder. Get some Post It Note Cement and put it around the edges of the polaroid print glueing it to the black paper. The receipients will then peel the polaroid print away from the paper revealing the invitation. This could be the solution to your problem.

[Pat Kearns]

Here is another idea on your polaroid idea that is a little more labor intensive on your part and doesn't have the problems of rollers or chemicals mentioned in earlier posts. First, have your photographer photograph the details of the event and process the original polaroid print. Then take some stiff black paper and cut it to the same design of a polaroid holder. Get some Post It Note Cement and put it around the edges of the polaroid print glueing it to the black paper. The receipients will then peel the polaroid print away from the paper revealing the invitation. If you work for a design firm you should be able to make this work.

[Dirk Rösler]

I think one of the points of the idea is to have the image appear gradually in front of the recipients' eyes. With peel-apart film this will not happen the way you envisage. Even if you were to pull this off with sent out Pola film, the recipient would just peel apart the finished picture, which is probably not the magic effect you were hoping for.

Perhaps you can research another material that can be prepared and would appear when exposed to light or heat (like old style fax paper or cash register rolls). The other day I left a receipt in a microwave while heating up food. THat gave some effect, but difficult to control.

[cyclicaljoi6]

Yes, the hoped-for effect was indeed the slow appearance of the image, though I think that it's time to head back to the drawing board....!

Thanks for all the help, guys!

A friend suggested using printing-out paper and not have it fixed so the reverse effect is achieved--the image would slowly disappear with time. Though the idea is a bit too complex and risky, I thought I'd throw that in as an interesting side note...it seems pretty fantastical an idea! (apparently yoko ono used it for an exhibition invitation...)

[bartf]

Try a small electro plating kit with a small sheet of metal and a tiny battery?

Coat the metal sheet with some transparent, less conductive material like nail polish? then have them add salty water the kit contents and wire it up to the included battery.

Use a rubber stamp or carving to coat the plate, so your info appears.

That should be a gradual reveal.

Haven't tried this, but it sounds good in my head

:D

Just remember where you got the idea!

[BrianShaw]

A friend suggested using printing-out paper and not have it fixed so the reverse effect is achieved--the image would slowly disappear with time. Though the idea is a bit too complex and risky, I thought I'd throw that in as an interesting side note...it seems pretty fantastical an idea! (apparently yoko ono used it for an exhibition invitation...)

Hi... I just thought of the POP idea... can I claim "simultaneous invention"?

This idea eliminates the caustic chemistry and the mechanical complexity of Polaroid rollers. The negative can be easily made with computer-generated negs. If packaged in a Polaroid-style package, the recipient would have to do a slightly un-Polaroid thing... peel and expost to light for a while. Most people either wouldn't know the difference; and if they did, they'd probably understand what's going on. As the POP 'develops' itself into oblivion, the recipient will still have the invitation text on the negative.

Seems like an expensive idea, but really cool! has anyone asked Yoko how her guests liked the idea?

p.s. I think this idea is a lot less risky than using genuine Polaroid processes or electro-plating set-up. What's the risk? Am I missing something important?

[Curt Palm]

the type of polaroid film that develops before your eyes used to be called the sx70, i'm not sure what it is called today. Polaroid sells (or used to ) sell cheap cameras ($20) loaded with this type of film, some were "disposable". google polaroid joycam to see some of them. So if your budget allows you to send everyone a camera with a exposed photo in it...
A problem to overcome is the camera ejects the film right after the photo is taken, so you'd have to figure out if you could modify this.