Help! Is this a keeper or should it go back?!

[alec4444]

Got my 360mm Symmar Convertible in the mail today. The guy that sold it to me gave this description for the lens:


This is the convertible lens. Converts to 620mm focal length using the rear lens group only. This lens is in fantastic condition. Coating is in great condition. There are no scratches of any significant size, shape or depth. There are a few cleaning wisps and that is all that I can visibly see. Very slight dent/ding in metal barrel at rim. Glass is mounted in the German made Compound 4 shutter with PC sync. Shutter has been recently CLA'd. Shutter has some oxidation on shutter blades that has no detraction from shutter functioning or accuracy. Serial# 11,XXX,XXX. Lens covers 11X14 with ample movement. This is a gorgeous lens! Sorry, no pics as my digital camera is down. Buyer pays shipping. PayPal, cash, cashiers check or money order only.

The "very slight dent" looks like Jaws (from the Bond movie) chewed on the rim. See the attched photos. The glass and shutter appear to be as described.

My concerns:
1) It would have taken a lot of force to make a dent like this. It may have had an imact on the glass (shifted it? weakened the cement?)
2) It further apprears that someone tried to un-dent it, since the threads in that area are all stripped off.
3) I feel that if I subtracted the shipping costs (roundtrip) and accurately described this lens and included photos I would not come close to seeing my money back.

The questions:
--Do you think this item was accurately described (see further photos at http://www.alec.com/lens/ )
--Do you think I need to worry about this dent?
--Would you return it?

I ask this because this is the first large format lens I've purchased and I'm guessing I don't really know what to look for. I also don't have the experience of knowing what to expect when someone says a lens has a "very slight dent".

Thanks!
--A

[Michael Graves]

Now I know why whenever I try to buy something it goes for 10x more than retail, but when I try to sell it, I get fractions of pennies on the dollar. I don't lie well enough. I would have described that lens as in need of service and provided a photo. There's no excuse for that, and the seller should be given one chance to take it back; and if they don't post negative feedback.

[Kevin Crisp]

The damage was grossly misrepresented, even by Ebay standards. You would never be able to screw a filter into it and since the repair has already been badly done that may not be fixable. If the glass is good and not separated I would not worry about the ding causing a problem other than the inability to use screw in filters. The glass looks nice. Send it back? Depends on what you paid (which I can't remember) and how hard it would be to find the equivalent without that issue for what you paid. With that serial number it is a very late one and probably a pretty decent lens, though I would not make this decision without shooting it. I think if I were in your shoes I'd ask for $50 or $100 back.

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Looks pretty abused, but it all depends how much you paid. $250 or so and I would just insist on an apology and some money back, more and it would go right back to the seller with some pretty nasty feedback.

So 'fess up, who sold you this so I can avoid them?

[Capocheny]

Alec,

All I can say is... "Fantastic condition my a**!"

I can certainly understand why he wouldn't be posting any images of it in the auction. "My" digital camera would also be "down" if I were trying to sell that lens with that kind of description!

That's like some junkyard auto seller selling a shell of a car without a motor and describing it as "slightly on the slow side!"

I'd send the thing back to him and demand he reimburse the actual price paid for the lens AND the shipping costs! I wouldn't even give him $25 for the thing.

Sorry! IMHO, that is gross misrepresentation!

It's like a backpack that I bought from a seller a few weeks back. He described it a unused but it arrived reaking of cigarette smoke and was definitely used. He got it back in a big hurry and I received a full refund AND shipping both ways.

I hope you paid with a credit card... if he jerks you around contact your credit card company and explain the situation to them. They'll be able to help in most cases. Visa and M/C are pretty good about lending a hand.

These lenses aren't all that difficult to find... you might even contact Jim at Midwest Photo for one! At least, you can trust him to be above board and honest in his descriptions!

BTW, Alec, IIRC... you're shooting 4x5 and are a relatively new LF user. Why a 360? What other lenses do you presently have in your kit?

Cheers

[Oren Grad]

I agree that "fantastic" is, well, fantastic ("thought of by unrestrained fancy; extravagant; capricious; eccentric") as a description for this lens.

But I'd second Jason's point - it depends on how much you paid. In calibrating your judgment, don't forget that a clean 360 Symmar-S or Orbit/Caltar equivalent can be had for $400-500 with a bit of patience. There's no need to accept a battered lens for anywhere near that amount of money; the optical virtues of the Convertible are not so extraordinary as to warrant suspending critical judgment.

[alec4444]

Thanks, guys. I didn't think this seemed right. I purchased outside of the eBay transaction sadly, so I'm hoping the guy will have some integrity and take it back. If not, you may see this post pop up on a couple other forums with his contact info.

Capocheny, thanks for your ideas. I paid with Paypal, which got the cash from my Visa, so I'm not sure I have much recourse other than being grumpy. =( We'll see what happens. I am new to LF, but I'm shooting 11x14. I bought a 180mm B&L protar V for kicks, but that's certainly not going to do as my first main lens. If I get my $$ back I'm going to try for another Schneider 360mm (Symmar S, Symmar, APO Symmar...) Wanted the 355 G-Claron but couldn't get it within my budget.

Cheers!
--A

[Capocheny]

Thanks, guys. I didn't think this seemed right. I purchased outside of the eBay transaction sadly, so I'm hoping the guy will have some integrity and take it back. If not, you may see this post pop up on a couple other forums with his contact info.

Capocheny, thanks for your ideas. I paid with Paypal, which got the cash from my Visa, so I'm not sure I have much recourse other than being grumpy. =( We'll see what happens. I am new to LF, but I'm shooting 11x14. I bought a 180mm B&L protar V for kicks, but that's certainly not going to do as my first main lens. If I get my $$ back I'm going to try for another Schneider 360mm (Symmar S, Symmar, APO Symmar...) Wanted the 355 G-Claron but couldn't get it within my budget.

Cheers!
--A

Alec,

Sorry, [with all due respects to the other posters] but I have to disagree with the notion that it depends on what you paid for it. But, that's just my personal opinion. I would definitely return the the lens.

When I had my problem, I paid through PayPal with an AmEx. They tell me that Visa and M/C can do something about reversing the charges... but they couldn't since they're not a member of some big club (here in Canada.) So, I don't think you'll have to just sit there and be grumpy about this. Secondly, they'll also tell you that you can pursue it through either PayPal or them... but not both. I would have gone through my cc company instead of PayPal but, again, that's just me.

If I may suggest... take your time and don't rush into picking up lenses right away. If you really want a 355 G-Claron... wait until you have the funds to get what you want. I think you'll be a heck of a lot happier in the long run. In the meantime, use the Protar that you have and learn how to use the camera properly. There's a bit of a learning curve and this will require your full attention and concentration for the time being.

I can't remember who it was that made the suggestion a long time ago that one should really use a standard lens for at least a year before moving onto another lens. IMHO, it makes some sense especially in LF because of the need to learn about movements etc.

Lastly, when you send him a note... be very polite and just state that the item is going to be returned because it wasn't "as described." If he disputes your claim... Do NOT be aggressive... but, at the same time, don't let him bully you. Be courteous but stand on point! Just respond back that the rim is more battered than described. And, that you're not happy with the item as a result.

[I wish I would have kept all the emails I had with the seller of the backpack to send to you. He didn't respond very promptly and, therefore, I had to keep sending him notes until I heard back from him. There were quite a few emails sent back and forth. Personally, I can't stand %*)$$(% people like this... IMHO, it's criminal!]

Anyway, let us know what happens.

Good luck! :)

Cheers

[darr]

I paid with PayPal, which got the cash from my Visa, so I'm not sure I have much recourse other than being grumpy. --A

You can start a "Buyer Complaint" through PayPal if the seller does not respond to your satisfaction. I would start the PayPal Buyer Complaint process if you decide the sale was grossly misrepresented and do not sit on it any longer than necessary. Even if PayPal gives you a hard time which I am pretty sure they will not, Visa will hold funds to PayPal if you call them regarding an unsatisfactory sale and then the dominoes fall into place meaning the seller will have to forfeit funds.

Start with PayPal first and work to Visa if not satisfied.

[Oren Grad]

Sorry, [with all due respects to the other posters] but I have to disagree with the notion that it depends on what you paid for it.

This is an interesting tactical question. I've learned from hard experience that I need to apply a "discount factor" to condition descriptions of items for sale on eBay and elsewhere, unless the item is from a seller already known to and trusted by me. And for items below a certain price, it literally doesn't pay to raise a fuss and go through the hassle of sending an item back. My time is worth more than that, in two ways: I make a living charging by the hour; and non-work time is precious, so I'd rather spend it doing things I enjoy or at least things I really have to do.

I bid and manage transactions accordingly, and in the end things balance out.

[sanking]

I agree that the condition of the lens was mis-represented. That is a very significant nick, not a small one as described. I too would be concerned that the impact could have caused some damage to the alignment of the glass that would impact performance.

That said, the value of a 360mm Symmar Convertible in a Compound 4, in VG+ conditionin every respect, is around $400. If you paid that much I would definitely try to get my money back becaue a dent of that magnitude would detract at least 25-30% of the value for me, *even if it does not affect performance." On the other hand, if you got it for $250 or less you could consider it a bargain, if performance is not affected by the impact.

Sandy

[alec4444]

Paid $400+ shipping. Feeling like a rube.

Response back from seller was not positive. I've kept my cool and replied, and have not received anything since then. I'll read Paypal's policies and see what I can do from there. Thanks for your ideas; I was under the impression that unless you have the funds pulled from your bank account, you don't get the "Paypal Protection" or whatever they call it. Perhaps that's a misconception on my part....

--A

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Alec,

You may want to direct your sellers attention to this thread, with an unstated or understated threat that you expose their name, ebay ID, what not. This has helped me and others in the past.

I have not had good luck with Paypal complaints. Your credit-card may be a better ally.

jason

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

This lens is in fantastic condition... This is a gorgeous lens!

Fantastic condition???? Gorgeous lens???? Definitely NOT! Not even close. I own, and have owned a lot of LF lenses and none of them are/were in such sorry shape. The condition of this lens was definitely misrepresented by the seller, unless he accidentally shipped you the wrong lens...


Serial# 11,XXX,XXX.

This does not match the serial number on the lens in your photos (9,9xx,xxx). So, either he misrepresented both the condition and the age of the lens, or he accidentally sent you the wrong lens. In either case, you didn't get what you paid for and I think you're entitled to a full refund (or an exchange for a gorgeous lens in fantastic condition with an 11,xxx,xxx serial number).

FWIW, there is a 360mm f6.8 Orbit lens (same as a Schneider Symmar-S) in a No. 3 Compur shutter on eBay right now with a Buy It Now! price of $435. This a newer lens in a better shutter and in much better condition at a fair price. As others mentioned, 30 - 40 year old 360mm lenses aren't exactly rare and can usually be had for very reasonable prices. With many to choose from, you shouldn't have to overpay for something in such poor condition.

Kerry

[Oren Grad]

The 14 1/4" Orbit currently up on eBay is likely not multicoated. Not a huge deal, but it makes the price just a bit less attractive.

[Capocheny]

This is an interesting tactical question. I've learned from hard experience that I need to apply a "discount factor" to condition descriptions of items for sale on eBay and elsewhere, unless the item is from a seller already known to and trusted by me. And for items below a certain price, it literally doesn't pay to raise a fuss and go through the hassle of sending an item back. My time is worth more than that, in two ways: I make a living charging by the hour; and non-work time is precious, so I'd rather spend it doing things I enjoy or at least things I really have to do.

I bid and manage transactions accordingly, and in the end things balance out.

Oren,

It's not that I disagree with your tactics and, in fact, I do the same thing as you do in that a discount factor is entered into the equation. However, on this item, it would become a bit of a philosophical issue/principle to me (as was the "unused" backpack that arrived reaking of cigarette smoke.) I really believe that the seller(s) were out to do a number on an unsuspecting buyer. There wasn't a picture in the auction and Alec may have been a bit unwise to have bid on it.

Secondly, for Alec, he may not have the experience that we do... nor, perhaps, the ability to simply walk away from the funds involved. That's why I advised him the way I did.

Thirdly, to walk away from the transaction would also signify implied consent to the way this guy does things. Personally, he should be held accountable for the misrepresentation.

But, you're right... it's a matter of valuing one's own time in terms of worth. I believe you work on drilling platforms as a consulting engineer? So, your time is valued a lot more than someone whose job is working in a restaurant. In that case, you earn a lot more money than the restaurant worker. So, you can also afford to walk away from that $400 tab easier than the restaurant worker.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here. It's just that I firmly believe in honesty and truthfulness and for those people who misrepresent the truth... there should be some accountability involved.

Anyway... I'll say no more on the issue other than to wish Alec luck in getting his money back in the most expeditious way possible.

:)

Cheers

[Oren Grad]

I believe you work on drilling platforms as a consulting engineer?

Now that would be an interesting alternative universe... :)

[Capocheny]

Now that would be an interesting alternative universe... :)


Ooops, was I wrong? :)

Sorry about that!

Cheers

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

The 14 1/4" Orbit currently up on eBay is likely not multicoated. Not a huge deal, but it makes the price just a bit less attractive.

Correct, from the picture it appears to be single coated. Not an awesome bargain, but at $435 in a Compur No. 3 shutter, a much better deal than the banged up Symmar convertible at $400. Heck, I paid less than $350 for my late convertible Symmar in a Copal shutter in mint- condition with both original caps. There are definitely bargains out there in these older generation plasmats. No reason to settle for damaged goods when you can get something much nicer for about the same (or less) money.

Kerry

[Ole Tjugen]

... I believe you work on drilling platforms as a consulting engineer? So, your time is valued a lot more than someone whose job is working in a restaurant. In that case, you earn a lot more money than the restaurant worker. So, you can also afford to walk away from that $400 tab easier than the restaurant worker...

I do that.

But still I would complain about this lens: Not only are the "small dings" about as bad as I've ever seen (and I make a "habit" of buying lenses like this at a huge discount), but the serial number is different as well. What has been delivered is not the lens you paid for.

Buying great lenses with bad cosmetic damage is a great way to get a huge collection of good lenses, but only when you get them really cheap.

[Hugo Zhang]

Alec,

Sorry to hear about your story. Four months ago, while bargain hunting on ebay, I came across the same lens on the German site. Unable to read German, but lured by the unusal low bid in euro, I rubbed my hands gleefully and made a bold move. I congratulated myself that night before going to bed. The next day, the kind seller sent me a message asking if I read German and knew that the shutter was not working. I did not. But to play a hero, I did not withdraw my bid. Of course I didn't need another 360mm lens. I have 6 of them already. But who can refuse a bargain? I won it for $163.54. I thought I might try it on my 10x20, but decided to stick to my 14" Blue Dot Trigor and 24" Red Dot Artar. Anyway, I took it to Carol to have the shutter fixed and when it comes back it will stay in my closet for a few years.

After reading your story, an idea came to my mind. Why don't I loan it to you? You can use it while hunting for your dream lens. Your 11x14 camera needs a lens now. This way, you don't rush into another mistake and I feel good about my lens is making some beautiful images. When you find your dream lens, just send this one back to me. Your only cost will be the shipping charge of this lens back to me in California. Of course, if you really like this lens after using it for a while, you have the option to buy it from me at my cost ($163 plus Carol's repair cost which I don't know how much $75?) or send me one of your signed 11x14 platinum prints when you are well known:).
If you like this idea and take my offer, I will need your address to give it to Carol so she can send the lens to you.

[Capocheny]

Alec,

Sorry to hear about your story. Four months ago, while bargain hunting on ebay, I came across the same lens on the German site. Unable to read German, but lured by the unusal low bid in euro, I rubbed my hands gleefully and made a bold move. I congratulated myself that night before going to bed. The next day, the kind seller sent me a message asking if I read German and knew that the shutter was not working. I did not. But to play a hero, I did not withdraw my bid. Of course I didn't need another 360mm lens. I have 6 of them already. But who can refuse a bargain? I won it for $163.54. I thought I might try it on my 10x20, but decided to stick to my 14" Blue Dot Trigor and 24" Red Dot Artar. Anyway, I took it to Carol to have the shutter fixed and when it comes back it will stay in my closet for a few years.

After reading your story, an idea came to my mind. Why don't I loan it to you? You can use it while hunting for your dream lens. Your 11x14 camera needs a lens now. This way, you don't rush into another mistake and I feel good about my lens is making some beautiful images. When you find your dream lens, just send this one back to me. Your only cost will be the shipping charge of this lens back to me in California. Of course, if you really like this lens after using it for a while, you have the option to buy it from me at my cost ($163 plus Carol's repair cost which I don't know how much $75?) or send me one of your signed 11x14 platinum prints when you are well known:).
If you like this idea and take my offer, I will need your address to give it to Carol so she can send the lens to you.


Hugo,

People like you are what makes this forum so great... turning a bad situation into a positive outcome!

Congratulations on your personal generosity - you have my profound respect and admiration! :)

Cheers

[Geert]

... I believe you work on drilling platforms as a consulting engineer? So, your time is valued a lot more than someone whose job is working in a restaurant. In that case, you earn a lot more money than the restaurant worker. So, you can also afford to walk away from that $400 tab easier than the restaurant worker...

Capocheney,

The fact that someone makes more money than others, is completely pointless when buying an item that has a wrong and incomplete description.

Alec,

ask your money back.
As Sandy pointed out, the misalignment of the cells is more than a probability in this case.
It's not only the small ding in the filter threads, but the rim that holds the front cell is badly hurt.

G

[Capocheny]

Ole,

Excuse my memory lapse. I knew it was either you or Oren... my apologies for the mistake. :)

.


Capocheney,

The fact that someone makes more money than others, is completely pointless when buying an item that has a wrong and incomplete description.G

Geert,

I don't disagree with you but, if you would have read the thread through completely, you'll comprehend that my point was, "some people can afford to walk away from a monetary transaction easier than others based on one's financial resources."

So, please, re-read the thread thoroughly (specifically, on point, at 18:31)... you'll see the logic in my comment and understand why it was made. :)

Cheers

[Hugo Zhang]

H.D.C,

Thank you for your kind words. It's a payback time for me. Some stranger (now a dear friend) with carpenter skills from this forum made a Packard shutter box for me for free after hearing that I needed to ship my Kodak 2D to SK Grimes in the east coast for the $800 job. I have learned so much from this forum and come across so many kind souls.

Hugo

[Capocheny]

H.D.C,

Thank you for your kind words. It's a payback time for me. Some stranger (now a dear friend) with carpenter skills from this forum made a Packard shutter box for me for free after hearing that I needed to ship my Kodak 2D to SK Grimes in the east coast for the $800 job. I have learned so much from this forum and come across so many kind souls.

Hugo

Hugo,

Regardless, I just think these random acts of kindness are exactly what the world needs these days.

So, good on you for doing it!

And, that's a pretty nice looking set-up you have there. :)

Cheers

[alec4444]

After reading your story, an idea came to my mind. Why don't I loan it to you? You can use it while hunting for your dream lens. Your 11x14 camera needs a lens now.

Hugo, I HUGELY appreciate this offer, and in a few days you may get a PM from me. I'm currently back on the warpath for a starter lens. I have some ideas in mind but if they don't pan I'd love to try the patient route :o and borrow yours!

In the meantime, the seller has offered a lens board in addition to the Symmar, and then later offered a "MINT 360mm f9 Rodenstock Apo-Gerogon. Lens is in barrel, no shutter or mounting flange" as an exchange for the Symmar. I've declined both offers and insisted on a full refund. I can provide more details on this later, but at this point I am certain I will get a full refund. Oh, and it's not directly via the seller. Last email I received (and won't respond to) was:


Sorry, NO REFUND. Since you don't trust me, after all I have said to give you a better understanding and remedy your dissatisfation, I do not believe we have anything to discuss. Good Day!

[Emrehan Zeybekoglu]

May I suggest that you buy such critical pieces of equipment from only reputable dealers. Regards..

[Salty]

IMO, because there is a large discrepancy in the serials numbers, the deal could be considered Fraud, the "bait and switch." Since you paid Paypal, they should be notified that one of their members are using questionable business practices. In my past experience when I filed a complaint with Paypal and they notified the other party, the other party was more than anxious to get it straightened out.

[Eric James]

It amazes me that a person so willing to lie about the condition of an item would have 99% of almost 500 ebay transaction go "positive". Ebay feedback is simply baloney; and this guy is a dirtball - although other words come to mind. You are a true gentleman to handle this so calmy! And three cheers for Hugo!

[Steve Hamley]

Anyone who says "Sorry, no pictures, My digital camera is down" in every auction is raising red flags so big I'd ordinarily never risk a purchase. There's a reason he doesn't post pictures of his goods and not having a digital camera available for many, many months isn't it.

Steve

[Lee Hamiel]

Very simple observation:

It's a "Fantasitic Dent"

Seller is a piece of work - probably drives a vehicle with a bent frame that appears to go straight but is always off center to the left or right.

People's opinions vary wildly & I would not accept it under the terms you bought it.

I also understand that it appears to be a dead end so to speak.

What I suggest is that you resell the lens & clearly state the issues & very clearly state the seller's name as it was used when you bought & get what you can & move on.

It can only get better:)

After you score some great stuff for peanuts down the road it will all balance out in the end.

Good Luck

[alec4444]

It amazes me that a person so willing to lie about the condition of an item would have 99% of almost 500 ebay transaction go "positive". Ebay feedback is simply baloney; and this guy is a dirtball - although other words come to mind. You are a true gentleman to handle this so calmy! And three cheers for Hugo!

It was that exact statistic that I relied on for this transaction. I wonder if there are people out there that build up good feedback and then screw someone on something intentionally to squeeze out a few extra bucks.... Would seem like a lot of work.

Made a lensboard out of mounting board and popped this thing on the camera today. Got my first image on the ground glass! A few observations:

1) I like the 360mm focal length, it was right where I had imagined it would be.
2) f5.6 is darn bright. Played with something a little above f8 (to simulate an f9 355 Claron) and that was ok. Then moved the aperature to just above 16 to simulate the f18 Protar. Gonna need a bright day for that lens!
3) Image circle appears huge, but I need to reverify light falloff in a different location (i.e. not inside)
4) 11x14 offers a helluva lot of picture to look at. Way different than the 4x5 I rented!

I forgot about trying it out in the 620mm focal length until it was too dark. I'll give that a go tomorrow.

Cheers!
--A

[alec4444]

I also understand that it appears to be a dead end so to speak.

Not so. It's not a done deal (not over 'til it's over), but it appears my credit card is going to handle this. Great experience with them so far in this matter.

--A

[Capocheny]

Not so. It's not a done deal (not over 'til it's over), but it appears my credit card is going to handle this. Great experience with them so far in this matter.

--A

Alec,

Good to hear! I wish AmEx were that responsive!

And, be sure to leave negative feedback for the seller...

FYI, there's a 360 Symmar-S f6.8 on the bay at the moment for a Buy-It-Now price of $300 some dollars. But, it has separation on the sides...

Also, don't bypass the Fujinon 360 f6.3 as it's not a bad lens either.

Good luck.

Cheers

[John Berry]

I'm hoping the guy will have some integrity and take it back.
--A I would expect the same integrity that was exibited with the lens description?

[John Berry]

I agree, he needs negative feedback, but be prepared for retaliatory negative feedback in return.

[Alonzo Guerrero]

This thread kept my interest the whole way. Man, what a great place it is that has been created here.

I have purchased much of my gear on eBay. Most of the items have been as described with no problems. Every now and then there is the box that shows up at the door, and when opened I wonder what the seller was looking at when describing the item as "mint" or "like new" condition. For me, there have only been a few of these all of which have at least been functional and under the $75 mark, so I feel fortunate. For larger items (lenses and cameras), I like sticking with people that usually focus on selling camera gear and have 1000+ fb replies with a 97% or higher positive rating. I also look at their feedback on recent auctions (just click on their fb number and select a few of the available recent items). While doing this I look for stuff like enthusiastic buyers writing "item was as described!" or to see if there are more replies that only say "ok", seemingly to avoid posting negative feedback for fear of retaliation.

If you're watchful and careful, eBay is great for bargains, and I will continue to trade there. However, I recently saw a Polaroid 430 that sold for close to $250.00!!! Plus, the final bidder had been bidding against someone with just 2 fb replies (now there are many legit ebayers with low fb, but most don't usually bid upwards of $200.00 on items of this nature). I couldn't believe this because, just days before, I bought the same camera fully loaded for the amazing sum of $9.00 (the kids in my family use these to learn about photography, so I pick them up every now and then). The description was what got me, because it went to great depths to lure the less knowledgeable and unsuspecting buyer on many levels. It just seemed to me this was a scam, and I just hate seeing honest people getting ripped off.

I hope you see this to a positive end and this guy gets what's coming to him. It'll come back both ways. It always does.

...and then, there is the Hugo factor. Wow...what a generous gesture.

[Bobf]

The reason that jokers like this get good feedback is because most people seem prepared to give a positive feedback (or at least, not give any negative feedback) in exchange for getting their money back (usually minus postage to rub salt in the wound). Needless to say, this makes a complete mockery of the entire system and is the major reason I no longer buy anything on the auction site: the ratings are meaningless.

The scams, you can usually spot - the sleazeballs are more difficult to see when people are not giving them the feedback they deserve. Three cheers indeed for those who do.

Cheers, Bob.

[alec4444]

Hugo, sent you a PM... Thanks!

[Michael Graves]

I agree, he needs negative feedback, but be prepared for retaliatory negative feedback in return.

John makes a crucial point here. One of Ebay's most unethical stands is that they will do nothing to protect legitimate buyers and sellers from retaliatory feedback. If you want to protect your rating you have to avoid giving negative feedback. I've monitored quite a few slimeballs on ebay. People who fired back at them for selling crap, not paying or any one of a number of other issues that deserve negative feedback all got NF in return. People who pay on time and then receive clearly defective merchandise or wait for months to get something should be able to report this type of behavior without having their record marred. I had a lengthy exchange with Ebay support over this very issue once when a foreign buyer bid high on one of the items I had for sale and then never bothered to contact me. That buyer had a long string of NFs. Then in checking with the "Feedback Left For Others" section, they went tit for tat. Don't count on Ebay supporting you. They won't

[Turner Reich]

It's too bad but eBay won't stand behind anything and the seller is a ^%&*)*&*&. By the way what was the name of the seller? Are they listing anything else that we might be interested in. Maybe we can question them to death. There is no excuse in the world for selling something like this under a total lie. I hope you can get some resolution of this.

[alec4444]

By the way what was the name of the seller?

Ebay ID: "biglakeon9 (http://myworld.ebay.com/biglakeon9)"
Mike Brown
8485 State Route 9
Mount Vernon, WA 98274
biglakeon9@earthlink.net (mailto:biglakeon9@earthlink.net)

The guy sells a lot of camera equipment mixed in with other stuff....


WOW, check this out! I just found my lens, AGAIN! Ok, now I getit. This idiot (that's Mike) bought this lens from overseas in THIS AUCTION (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=627&item=270019637858) for 156 pounds sterling + 20 pounds sterling for shipping. That seller posted pictures. Auction was on Aug 27. Before I purchased the lens, I asked about the ding and got the following response on Sept 19:


Ding in rim is really not a big deal. I bought it with the ding. I never considered it serious and had it for many years and took many shots with it.

Well that's fascintating since he JUST ACQUIRED THE LENS!

[Dan Fromm]

Look, Alec4444, the guy advertised one lens and delivered another. You have an open and shut case of fraud. Have you taken it to eBay, PayPal, and your charge card company yet.

[Eric James]

The national garage sale (ebay) is, sadly, a magnet for liars and cheats.

I've run into a number of ebay misrepresentations and tend to avoid it these days for that reason. Once I went to photo.net to leave the guy negative feedback, and for his ebay negative feedback I simply posted the photo.net url. This is against ebay rules, as I learned - they demanded that I take it down, but it wasn't editable:) Ebay removed my link but the photo.net feedback lives today:

http://www.photo.net/neighbor/view-one.tcl?neighbor_to_neighbor_id=82303

Ebay did not "punish" me for this behavior - they just removed the link.

Eric

[alec4444]

Thanks, Eric. I just added Mike to the list. I'm betting nobody checks there before they buy, but at least it'll come up in a google search.

--A

[Eric James]

:) :) Joy of the just :) :)

[Capocheny]

Alec, Eric,

Much as I agree that there ARE a lot of scoundrels on Ebay... we shouldn't forget the fact that there are also some very good people as well. It's like all other facets of life... you'll get really decent people to interact with, and, you'll the dregs of society as well.

I think it's a matter of doing as much due diligence as you can prior to entering your bid. For example, it's a good idea to contact the seller and "have a little chat." This, hopefully, will give you an idea as to the disposition of the person you're dealing with. For example, some people take their time in responding to your queries; others respond immediately. Some people will give you single word responses while others are a bit more "complete." But, all in all, it should give you some insights as to your trading partner.

In the few dealings I've thus far had... I've only had (perhaps) 2 transactions that I couldn't resolve issues with. But, the rest have been really, really terrific. And, I've made some very good friends through the deals I've done. Maybe, I'm just fortunate but I don't really believe that.

So, my point is... don't cut your nose off to spite your face because you've had some negative incidences. There are still plenty of good, positive experiences to be had with some good people out there. :)

[BTW, Eric, it was a pleasure dealing with you on the things I just purchased. Thank you. :)]

Everybody, have a wonderful Thanksgiving Day holiday (now and upcoming.) :)

Cheers

[alec4444]

Ahh Cap. The voice of reason. Yes, I've probably made even dumber purchases before and not even given it a second thought. Serenity now! :D

[archivue]

"I purchased OUTSIDE of the eBay transaction sadly, so I'm hoping the guy will have some integrity..."
and you are talking about integrity ;-)
how much did you pay for it ? this lens inthat condition i would have pay 150 $ max !

[alec4444]

Update on this: Got a full refund from my credit card company, MBNA. (Now Bank of America) Went really smoothly. Paypal was issued a chargeback...dunno if they're going to pass that onto the seller or what. But at least I've been made whole.

Thanks for all your help on this, guys, I may not have recovered a dime w/o your assitance.

--A

[Capocheny]

Hey Alec,

Good to hear you succeeded in getting your buckeroos back! :)

I think we all work hard for the limited dollars we have to spend and nothing irks me worse than getting ripped off by some scoundrel! :)

Congratulations.

Cheers