View Full Version : Solution for tray development
Here's a pic of my solution to the problems of tray development -
Simply take a negative holder, and bend the "arms." Now load the film and place the holder flat into the developer tray. No touching of developer solution, no nuthin'. Agitate by lifting the negative holder arm in various directions.
You can probably do this with any negative holder, but I used the type that holds four 4x5 negs.
PViapiano
27-Sep-2006, 21:19
I like that idea!
I may check that out...let us know how it worked out.
Andrew O'Neill
27-Sep-2006, 21:48
The negatives don't pop out at all while lifting? Just wondering because those holders were designed to hold the film vertically.
Nope, never had a negative pop out. I think it would take a lot of force to do that as all four sides of the neg are held in place
The funny thing is that compared with vertical use, I get very even development with no surge marks - dont know why this would be the case when used horizontally.
Rafael Garcia
28-Sep-2006, 09:13
I like it! I wonder if larger negatives may not be as secure... it's worth a try in 5x7.
Michael Kadillak
28-Sep-2006, 13:58
But you can only do four negatives at a time.
Conventional tray development allows me to do as many as 10 negatives in 4x5 or 5x7 or even 8x10 in a single run with no scratching or unevenness at all - even with Efke. You just have to learn to be patient and rythmic in the procedure of pulling a sheet from the bottom and gently pushing it down on the top of the stack. I relegate the hangers to washing the film as the wash is where many folks acquire the emulsion damage that will make you want to pull your hait out. Tray development is time honored photographic skill that is not that difficult to master. All you need are a pair of nitrile gloves and you are in business.
But at the end of the day if this system provides you with consistent results then go for it. The only thing that really matters is that folks regularly make sheet film purchases.
Cheers!
Ken Lee
28-Sep-2006, 14:12
If you use an InfraRed viewing device, many of these issues go away. It's a lot less error-prone when you can see everything that you are doing.
Ron Marshall
28-Sep-2006, 14:34
You need a deeper tray and a way to stack two of the frames, so you can do 8 sheets at a time.
It is indeed possible to stack 2 frames in a stadard tray (perhaps even 3 if you use the paterson trays that are a bit deeper) but right now 4 negs at a time is actually too many for me as I am experimenting with individualized development times. So I'll be bending some single 4x5 holders this weekend and will be developing 1 neg at a time. However since I am using a replenishable developer (acufine for me) I think I can arrange an assembly-line procedure in development to make things go along faster by developing several negs in a row, one right after another (only stopping to add replenisher)
I did try the tray development thing. I had the usual problems with scratches but that wasn't the only motivation to use this technique. I really don't like all that film handling of the softened emulsion, and it just isn't necessary if you can avoid it. Also, you get a freer flow of developer over the emulsion surface. But more importantly I feel that I have more control over the negative in the tray and the agitation using the "handle" on one of these things, and also nothing touches the film surface, and its less messy because my fingers aren't in the solutions (and since I'm a big slob, those fingerprints with residual fixer tended to get all over the place and gloves just bug me)
If you use an InfraRed viewing device, many of these issues go away. It's a lot less error-prone when you can see everything that you are doing.
More toys? YIPEEEE! Actually I like the dark and I don't think I could keep one of those things on my head for the hours I spend in my darkroom even though they look vicious cool!
Ken Lee
28-Sep-2006, 20:40
More toys? YIPEEEE! Actually I like the dark and I don't think I could keep one of those things on my head for the hours I spend in my darkroom even though they look vicious cool!
You don't need to keep it on your head for long, just while developing sheet film. Once you discover that you can develop a lot of sheet film at once, the time spent using the viewer is even less.
It also comes in handy for loading and unloading film. Yes, you can do it in the dark, but it's effortless, faster, and exact when you see everything.
If you like to do development by inspection, it's the cat's meow. I can't even imagine peeking at a green safelight for only a moment. This way, you can leave the film in the soup until it's done, or pull it sooner if you like.
On one set of negatives, I photographed some people with a dog - whose fur was so black, I had to change over to "semi-stand" development on the fly, while the film was in the developer.
Seeing that the low values were empty with normal development, I just left the negative in the developer and gave agitation every now and then, until there was visible texture. It took around 3x normal time, but due to the low agitation, the high values were basically unchanged. Looking at the prints, you'd never know.
Without the IR viewer, forgettabout it.
Fred Braakman
28-Sep-2006, 21:16
The Photographic Formulary sells a film tray developer which holds 6 4x5 negatives. They also sell one for 8x10 negatives, which holds 4 sheets of film. I use the 4x5 tray and like it very much. It costs $60.
Fred
Kevin Klazek
29-Sep-2006, 04:42
I had problems with the tray shuffle method also. No matter how careful I was , still had scratches. Perhaps Michael is right though that it is mostly in the wash stage. Anyway, I built a slosher tray from a plexiglass sheet and several nylon nuts and bolts. I can do 4- 5x7 sheets at once in 11x14 trays. It works great and no more scratches as I use the cradle from start to finish. Total cost was about $10.
Michael Kadillak
29-Sep-2006, 08:12
I can promise you two things. First, over time you will make a natural progression from testing mode to "real" work mode and your process volume will very likely increase substantially. At that point, efficiency will become an important part of your vernacular. Secondly, it is also very possible that you could find yourself drawn to a format for which sloshers or hangers are not practical or available.
I built a darkroom for what I expected would be singularly 4x5 and 5x7 and ended up shooting 11x14, 8x20 and 12x20 with 8x10 on the small end of the scale. Go figure. My JOBO CPP2 and a number of 3000 series drums that was regularly utilized for all of my processing requirements has been collecting dust in the corner of my darkroom. After seeing first hand from Paula Chamlee in a workshop how simple sheet film tray is I now use it for all of my formats with the IR goggles as Ken made reference to.
I just want to go on record that with the correct thin nitrile gloves that provide you with a high level of dexterity that you can purchase at Wal Mart for $4.00 per 20 pairs, tray processing is a very productive and fool proof alternative for sheet film processing for the evolving LF photographer.
Cheers!
PViapiano
29-Sep-2006, 09:06
I potentially agree with Michael. I say potentially, because I have just done my first tray development, albeit with only 2 negatives. This was a "dry" run with some boring, around-the-house 4x5 snapshots, but it allowed me to see if there would be any potential pitfalls. The negatives turned out great with very little, minimal damage, if any.
I can only say that I feel with a little bit of practice and consistency, I will be able to have complete confidence going forward with future tray development, with only a pair of gloves to help out. The tips given to me from my original post on the subject (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=20065)are invaluable and I intend to take advantage of the experience that's been shared by these forum members.
I can promise you two things. First, over time you will make a natural progression from testing mode to "real" work mode and your process volume will very likely increase substantially. At that point, efficiency will become an important part of your vernacular. Secondly, it is also very possible that you could find yourself drawn to a format for which sloshers or hangers are not practical or available.
I built a darkroom for what I expected would be singularly 4x5 and 5x7 and ended up shooting 11x14, 8x20 and 12x20 with 8x10 on the small end of the scale. Go figure.
Hmmmm...DON'T TEMPT ME - my Christmas bonus is burning a hole in my pocket already...
But the volume isn't a concern - I can always just bend more holders...
Cheers![/QUOTE]
The Photographic Formulary sells a film tray developer which holds 6 4x5 negatives. They also sell one for 8x10 negatives, which holds 4 sheets of film. I use the 4x5 tray and like it very much. It costs $60.
Fred
Yup ! I bought one of them sloshers are my second favorite but the type I had (From photographer's Formulary) was built for 6 negs, even if you were developing only 2, 3 or 4 negs, so there was a waste of solution. Also, I always got my fingers wet when checking to see if the negs were floating correctly in their little boxes. But definitely a slosher is an easy system to use and results in very even development.
I wanted to try the BTZS tubes too but never got my order because of a mix up in addresses using Paypal...
You don't need to keep it on your head for long, just while developing sheet film. Once you discover that you can develop a lot of sheet film at once, the time spent using the viewer is even less.
It also comes in handy for loading and unloading film. Yes, you can do it in the dark, but it's effortless, faster, and exact when you see everything.
If you like to do development by inspection, it's the cat's meow. I can't even imagine peeking at a green safelight for only a moment. This way, you can leave the film in the soup until it's done, or pull it sooner if you like.
On one set of negatives, I photographed some people with a dog - whose fur was so black, I had to change over to "semi-stand" development on the fly, while the film was in the developer.
Seeing that the low values were empty with normal development, I just left the negative in the developer and gave agitation every now and then, until there was visible texture. It took around 3x normal time, but due to the low agitation, the high values were basically unchanged. Looking at the prints, you'd never know.
Without the IR viewer, forgettabout it.
Any brand recommendations on IR viewers? They're pretty expensive!
Andrew O'Neill
29-Sep-2006, 18:52
Just out of curiosity cyrus, what made you do it this way?
Just out of curiosity cyrus, what made you do it this way?
I like to tinker, I guess.
Actually I have been experimenting with various LF developing systems since I am new to LF. I wasn't having a good experience with hangers (surge marks) or tray development by hand (scratches) and so I had settled on the slosher but then it just struck me that using the hanger horizontally instead of vertically can work too.
Herb Cunningham
30-Sep-2006, 07:53
I know a lot of folks have trouble with developing vertically in hangers, with ss tanks, but I have done just that for several years now without surge marks.
Just immerse and lift VERY slowly going from one end of the tank to the other, I can usually fit 5 or six hangers of 8x10 in a narrow tank, and it works fine. Also can do stand and semi stand with the lights on if you have a lid.
Works for me-I cannot do Efke in trays without a scratch or two.
Tony Lakin
1-Oct-2006, 01:45
"To hold one to four sheets in a horizontal position, we have found that a film developing holder designed for nitrogen-burst agitation can be used in a conventional 11 x 14 tray. The holder will keep the film seperated and flat, well under the surface of the solutions".
Quote from page 228, 'The Negative', by Ansel Adams.
I have used this method several times with great success
'Nothing new under the sun'.
Any brand recommendations on IR viewers? They're pretty expensive!
Night Vision devices get very sophisticated and expensive. Mine is at the low end, but is plenty good enough for our purposes.
I purchased an ATN Viper (http://www.atncorp.com/NightVision/NightVisionBinocularsGoggles/ATNViper) on eBay from Optics Plus (http://stores.ebay.com/OpticsPlus). I got this model (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-400-ATN-NIGHT-VISION-Goggles-w-Headgear_W0QQitemZ7203451424QQihZ015QQcategoryZ40970QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem) for $ 245.00
John Berry
1-Oct-2006, 23:19
I also have the ATN viper. Greatest thing since sliced bread. Could we get by without sliced bread? I suppose, but I don't see anyone asking for unsliced after getting acclimated to sliced.
I also have the ATN viper. Greatest thing since sliced bread. Could we get by without sliced bread? I suppose, but I don't see anyone asking for unsliced after getting acclimated to sliced.
Nah, I'm going to give this one a miss.
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