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View Full Version : Leica buys majority share of Sinar



tim atherton
25-Sep-2006, 08:26
or something like that... my German is nowhere good enough to figure out the details, but it appears they bought out Jenoptik's share (unless I'm getting it back to front....)

tim atherton
25-Sep-2006, 08:27
ahh - in English

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/09/25/business/EU_FIN_Germany_Switzerland_Leica_Camera.php

Kirk Gittings
25-Sep-2006, 08:38
I am curious as to what this means in terms of their long range view of where the profitability of photography is at.

Frank Petronio
25-Sep-2006, 08:52
Anything to battle the evil monsters at Zeiss...

CXC
25-Sep-2006, 09:07
Who buys new Sinar equipment anymore? For that matter, who buys new Leicas anymore? I gotta believe that both those markets are pretty dried up. Not helped by the fact that they built two of the most reliable, long-lived, overpriced cameras around -- hold your breath for Linhof...

Ted Harris
25-Sep-2006, 09:09
Don't forget that it is not E. Leitz we are talking about here but the Leica spinoff that was accquired by a group of private investors several years ago ... if my memory is correct.

Joseph O'Neil
25-Sep-2006, 09:21
Anything to battle the evil monsters at Zeiss...

Hey Frank, I love Zeiss optics - I depend on them every day of my life. My prescription eyeglasses are all Zeiss. Hellva difference between them and your one hour eyeglass store. :)

For that matter, Rodenstock and Nikon both make excellent prescription eyeglasses. Before I went Zeiss, all my eyeglasses were Rodenstock. I thought it was pretty cool to shoot 4x5, knowing i had Rodenstock optics on *both* sides of the ground glass. :)

joe

tim atherton
25-Sep-2006, 09:25
I am curious as to what this means in terms of their long range view of where the profitability of photography is at.


digital? The digital aspects of Sinar I would guess (I think Jenoptik also has some kind of thing going with Leicas digital sensors...)

David A. Goldfarb
25-Sep-2006, 09:58
I suspect the people buying new Sinars are the ones who sell guys like me their old Sinars. Indeed there was a P2 on the stand at the commercial studio where I picked up my 8x10" P. I suppose it helps to have the manufacturer's rep stopping by to talk up the new gizmos, pick up items for service, and such.

Oren Grad
25-Sep-2006, 10:00
I wonder also whether Leica might be thinking of trying its hand at glass for larger formats, perhaps the sub-645 sensors that you might put on an F3/P3, or for the Sinar m. The idea would be to internalize more of the value chain by displacing Linos/Rodenstock, Zeiss and Schneider as suppliers of Sinar-labeled lenses.

Arne Croell
25-Sep-2006, 10:09
Don't forget that it is not E. Leitz we are talking about here but the Leica spinoff that was accquired by a group of private investors several years ago ... if my memory is correct.
Ted, you're probably referring to the Hermes group, which held the majority of the Leica shares for several years. However, recently the majority has been taken over by an Austrian company called "ACM Projektentwicklung". I don't know much else about them though. Hermes just sold their remaining shares to ACM.

Does this mean we will now see large format Leica lenses, something like a 120mm Summicron Asph for $8000 as the ultimate lens snobbery? ;-)

Frank Petronio
25-Sep-2006, 10:14
The Sinar M digital system is pretty darn nice for those who can afford it, and having Leica optics infront of it would allow it to better challenge Hasselblad/Imacon/Fuji for the higher-end digital market. Unless Zeiss/Kyocera/Rollei/Leaf(Kodak) also launch a competitive line of high-end products.

Which leaves Rodenstock, Schneider, Linhof, etc. out in the cold, at least until they hook up and align with a digital team.

The downside is that it means more proprietary systems and less interchangagbility. Which at ~$50K plus per unit is pretty rough. But they must beleive the market is there to support a couple of competitors and that higher end professionals and governments will continue to buy the best brand name stuff at list price.

And in a few years, an obsolete used Leaf 39mb might drop in price to under $10K and some of us might actually get one ;)

Ralph Barker
25-Sep-2006, 10:40
Aside fromt he financial elements of both companies, of which I know little, The Sinar/Leica coupling seems to make good product-sense to me. They have complimentary markets in many respects, rather than competitive, and (I'd think) a big overlap in research efforts.

Plus, the idea of a 65mm Noctilux for 4x5 sounds really tasty - even though I doubt I could afford one.

Don't forget, Frank, both Schneider and Rodenstock have offered lenses designed for digital for some time. So, they're not really out in the cold, MF/LF digi-wise.

Gordon Moat
25-Sep-2006, 11:48
Anyone interested can download the report at:

http://www.leica-corporate.com/investor_relations/financial_reports/2006/index.html

Not much in the one page PDF, though they now own 51% of Sinar AG. The rest is still owned by Jenoptik, and there is mention of a cooperative agreement with Jenoptik.

As if this could be any odder, Jenoptik backs currently use Dalsa chips, while Sinar backs use Kodak chips. Other strangeness includes specially developed Zeiss lenses for the Sinar M system. Of course, Kodak now own Leaf, who use Dalsa chips in their digital backs.

I think some consolidation would be inevitable. These are all niche products. I doubt there would be any intention of expanding into a broader consumer market. However, now Leica with Sinar can exploit a few more niche markets together.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

Daniel Geiger
25-Sep-2006, 13:08
Hey Frank, I love Zeiss optics - I depend on them every day of my life. My prescription eyeglasses are all Zeiss. Hellva difference between them and your one hour eyeglass store. :)

For that matter, Rodenstock and Nikon both make excellent prescription eyeglasses. Before I went Zeiss, all my eyeglasses were Rodenstock. I thought it was pretty cool to shoot 4x5, knowing i had Rodenstock optics on *both* sides of the ground glass. :)

joe

I use a Contax with a bunch of Zeiss primes (Kyocera is the culprit of killing Contax off, not Zeiss), selected and run a Zeiss EVO40XVP SEM, purchased a Zeiss Axioskop2 plus with planapo optics and a Zeiss Axiocam HRc (peltier cooled, not with a vibration inducing fan like on the Leica), and added recently a Zeiss Stereomicroscope Discovery V12 with two planapo objectives (no yellow/blue color halos as on the Leica models). If Zeiss ever gets back to LF lenses, I'll get one of each, no questions asked.

Lee Hamiel
25-Sep-2006, 15:12
Interesting take on this here:
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00IBsn

Gordon Moat
25-Sep-2006, 15:58
Many public companies are partially owned by different entities, though not always with the added function of cooperative agreements. Hérmes CEO is still on the Leica BoD, and they still control a large portion of convertible bonds and shares, just not the majority interest they use to. Jenoptik are still partial owners of Sinar. Rollei 6000 series now out of Franke & Heidecke, a separate concern started by some former Rollei executives. Past Rollei 6008 digital bundles used PhaseOne backs, and some of these are still on the market as new gear. Franke & Heidecke signed a cooperative agreement with Horseman, and now both are distributed by Direct Source in North America.

Add some more fun into all this with ALPA of Switzerland having a cooperative agreement with Franke & Heidecke. You can also get adapter set-ups to put Rollei 6000 lenses onto the latest ALPA bodies. More fun with Seitz, also in Switzerland, doing much of the machining work for ALPA.

I suppose speculators could spin this in many ways: a new Horseman large format with Leica designed rangefinder though using Rollei 6000 lenses in combination with your choice of a Jenoptik or Sinar digital back; adapters to use Zeiss Sinar M system lenses on the Rollei 6008AF; a medium format Leica rangefinder; large format Leica lenses for the financially gifted; etc. I think a bigger reality is that these are all tiny players in several niche markets; they will have a better chance of all surviving if they cooperate with each other, rather than being competitors. It can also make dealer and service networks vastly simpler by having many brands under one collective roof.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

John Flavell
25-Sep-2006, 19:50
I think it means more doctors and lawyers will get into large format.

Ted Harris
26-Sep-2006, 06:31
Arne, thanks. It would be veryu interesting to know more about the parent company. My implication, which you correctly interperted, was that the old owners bought leica because of the snob appeal and lumped the products with other high end luxury goods. Now, if the new owners are looking at how the future company can contribute to optics/photography/etc. that would be interesting.

Jerry Flynn
26-Sep-2006, 07:10
My reading of the press release differs from Gordon's. It says that Leica bought a 51% share in Sinar from Jenoptik which would be all of Jenoptik's holdings in Sinar. (In other words, they did not buy 51% of Jenoptik's share of the company). The remaining 49% had remained with the original ownership - presumably the Koch family.

The release says that Jenoptik will continue to work with Sinar, etc.

The fact that Jenoptik retained an ownership stake for such a short time (less than a year(?) I can't find the original press release on Sinar's website anymore) raises the question of what kind of deal Jenoptik felt they had gotten when they bought a controlling interest in Sinar.

I agree that Sinar and Leica a both niche marketers that need to band together to survive.

CXC
26-Sep-2006, 08:25
Just for laughs I looked up the current price for a new 4x5 P2 at B&H: $8664. Special order. I really have to wonder how many of those babies they sell.

Gordon Moat
26-Sep-2006, 11:21
Okay, so I read the Jenoptik press release on this, and it mostly states they only retain a long term contract with Sinar AG, and have a cooperative agreement with Leica:

http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-26EE34DB-44DF0303/jenoptik/hs.xsl/272_4524.htm

However, they are not giving out much information. It does look like the stock transfer was complete, which means I was incorrect in stating Jenoptik still owns a portion of Sinar; seems all their shares were transferred. Thanks to Jerry for spotting that.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

phaedrus
30-Sep-2006, 21:25
(I think Jenoptik also has some kind of thing going with Leicas digital sensors...)
Not at all. Jenoptik was born when Zeiss Jena was split up after the Wall came down. One department of Jenoptik makes Eyelike digital backs, but the CCD in the Leica M8 is made by Kodak.
Christoph (living 60 kms from Jena)

tim atherton
30-Sep-2006, 21:56
Not at all. Jenoptik was born when Zeiss Jena was split up after the Wall came down. One department of Jenoptik makes Eyelike digital backs, but the CCD in the Leica M8 is made by Kodak.
Christoph (living 60 kms from Jena)

My understanding is Jenoptik worked in partnership with Leica on the M8 - implementing the firmware for the Kodak sensor among other things

A partnership which will still apparently be continuing after Leica bought out their share of Sinar