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View Full Version : Screwed: Re-thinking the 355 G-Claron



alec4444
17-Sep-2006, 19:52
Well, as another 355mm G-Claron flies by on the bay, I can't help but wonder if one of these is going to be my first 11x14 lens. I bid on it...a fair bid I think, and notta. I had an opportunity to purchase one privately, and it was out of my budget. So now what?

The 360mm Symmar S appears to be my safe 2nd choice. It's huge. It's heavy. It's multicoated. It's seemingly available and affordable. Other options include:

--360mm Orbit S II, which is the same as the above (I think) in a generic wrapper.
--15" APO Raptar force fed into an Ilex shutter
--Rodenstock's 360mm lens, which seems to be the same price as the Symmar S with less coverage.
--Nikon 360mm f/6.5 Nikkor-W
--360mm Schneider Symmar (the convertable one, single coated I think)
--Kodak 14" Commercial Ektar, though I think it just covers with no movements

Whaddaya think?

Uses: B&W, Architecture (need rise!) and landscape, 11x14 camera, contact prints, would prefer a shutter, may not have a compendium shade to start.

--A

Brian Ellis
17-Sep-2006, 19:59
I think that considering the weight of your 11x14 camera, the added weight of the 360mm Symmar S will be insignificant. Carrying a heavy lens along with an 11x14 camera and acessories is analogous to lighting a match in Hell in terms of its effect on your overall level of discomfort.

alec4444
17-Sep-2006, 20:04
...Carrying a heavy lens along with an 11x14 camera and acessories is analogous to lighting a match in Hell in terms of its effect on your overall level of discomfort.

Thanks, Brian, that's one of the funniest analogies I've heard in a long time....I'm dying over here!!! :p

Paul Fitzgerald
17-Sep-2006, 20:19
alec4444,

" may not have a compendium shade to start."

It other name is 'dark slide' :)

Another option 'JML' process lenses are usually killer sharp and affordable.

Good luck with it.

John Kasaian
17-Sep-2006, 20:36
Don't forget the 14" Dagor, 16-1/2"-19" Artars and 450 Nikkor M. All are wonderful lenses btw.

I have a 14" Commercial Ektar and its briliant on an 8x10 but I suspect it might not give you much "sharp" wiggle room on an 11x14, at least at the edges. The only way to know for sure is to try one. Jim at Midwest usually keeps one or two in stock at a fair price (thats where I bought mine)

If you want a barrel lens, I've got a few sitting around that want to go to work.

Michael Kadillak
17-Sep-2006, 21:20
Well, as another 355mm G-Claron flies by on the bay, I can't help but wonder if one of these is going to be my first 11x14 lens. I bid on it...a fair bid I think, and notta. I had an opportunity to purchase one privately, and it was out of my budget. So now what?

The 360mm Symmar S appears to be my safe 2nd choice. It's huge. It's heavy. It's multicoated. It's seemingly available and affordable. Other options include:

--360mm Orbit S II, which is the same as the above (I think) in a generic wrapper.
--15" APO Raptar force fed into an Ilex shutter
--Rodenstock's 360mm lens, which seems to be the same price as the Symmar S with less coverage.
--Nikon 360mm f/6.5 Nikkor-W
--360mm Schneider Symmar (the convertable one, single coated I think)
--Kodak 14" Commercial Ektar, though I think it just covers with no movements

Whaddaya think?

Uses: B&W, Architecture (need rise!) and landscape, 11x14 camera, contact prints, would prefer a shutter, may not have a compendium shade to start.

--A

Reality Check-

11x14 is not an inexpensive habit. However, I can say with certainty that the 355 G Claron is a truly marvelous lens. Look for one in barrel to get you started and when you can afford it, put it in a Copal #3 and you are set. There are many out there and they come up for sale often so all is not lost.

Oren Grad
17-Sep-2006, 21:40
The 360mm Symmar S appears to be my safe 2nd choice. It's huge. It's heavy. It's multicoated. It's seemingly available and affordable. Other options include:

--360mm Orbit S II, which is the same as the above (I think) in a generic wrapper.


I'd agree with that. I don't know about the Raptar, but among the rest, given that your primary concern is coverage rather than particular subtleties in the rendering, I think the Symmar-S/Caltar S-II/Orbit S-II is likely to give you the best overall performance per dollar spent.

Sheldon N
17-Sep-2006, 22:28
There's a 360mm f/9 Graphic Kowa on Ebay this week. It will screw directly into a Copal 3s shutter if you can find one. It's reputed to have coverage for 11x14, though perhaps not much in the way of movements. Auction number 270028616763.

Otherwise a 360mm Schneider/Nikkor/Fuji plasmat might be the way to go. With a little patience you might find something in the $300-400 price range.

Sheldon N
17-Sep-2006, 23:18
Oh, and another option is a just listed Ilex Calumet Caltar 14 3/4" 375mm f/6.3 lens in Ilex 5 shutter. Coverage is spec'd at a 468mm, which would possibly meet your needs. It'll be less expensive, too. Auction #190032491557.

scott_6029
18-Sep-2006, 06:58
Why not try a 16 1/2 artar - non-red dot (uncoated?)...I picked one up in a shutter for less than $225 bucks. Fantastic lens. Contrast in wonderful. Even though it is not a red dot. Here is an APO Artar Red Dot 161/2 "/9 #836945, in front of Alpax #4 shutter, Ex++ $395 at Igor Camera as an example....

You could also try a 19" artar - perhaps in a barrel to start.

Michael Jones
18-Sep-2006, 07:17
I've had both and now only have the 355 G-Claron. I found the Symmar to be marginally superior to the G-Claron and both have similar image circles. As Brian points out, weight is a non issue unless you have some rickety 100 year old front frame you cannot reinforce. The only downside I found in the field to the Symmar is the amount of glass in its front element. Its size makes it difficult to shield from light and its filter size is massive. You can use gels, but since its 105mm, you still have to go the 6" sizes. But the Symmar is a great lens. I decided to trim down a pound and about 3" to use the G-Claron with its smaller filters, but miss my Symmar on a regular basis.

Mike

sanking
18-Sep-2006, 08:22
Well, as another 355mm G-Claron flies by on the bay, I can't help but wonder if one of these is going to be my first 11x14 lens. I bid on it...a fair bid I think, and notta. I had an opportunity to purchase one privately, and it was out of my budget. So now what?

The 360mm Symmar S appears to be my safe 2nd choice. It's huge. It's heavy. It's multicoated. It's seemingly available and affordable. Other options include:

--360mm Orbit S II, which is the same as the above (I think) in a generic wrapper.
--15" APO Raptar force fed into an Ilex shutter
--Rodenstock's 360mm lens, which seems to be the same price as the Symmar S with less coverage.
--Nikon 360mm f/6.5 Nikkor-W
--360mm Schneider Symmar (the convertable one, single coated I think)
--Kodak 14" Commercial Ektar, though I think it just covers with no movements

Whaddaya think?

Uses: B&W, Architecture (need rise!) and landscape, 11x14 camera, contact prints, would prefer a shutter, may not have a compendium shade to start.

--A



To keep things in perspective, any of the lenses you mention above should give performance beyond actual need on 11X14. Some of the other 360 mm lenses you mention, such as the Symmar S and Rodenstock Apo Sironar N and S, are probably slightly better optically than the G-Claron, and multi-coated as well. However they are much larger than the 355 G-Claron, and more importantly, requre very large filters, though you may get around this in some cases by putting the filters on the rear elements. Most of these lenses have a circle of illumination less than that of the 355 G-Claron, but still plenty enough for 11X14 with some movements.

If size is not an issue, and you can handle the filter issue, even an old Symmar Convertible would serve you very well. It has great coverage, almost as much as the G-Claron, and sells for a lot less than the G-Claron and most of the lenses you mentioned. Also, the big f/5.6 aperture throws a lot of lights and makes composition very easy on the ground glass.


Sandy

CXC
18-Sep-2006, 09:49
What sort of actual dollars are involved here? If what you really want is the G-Claron, which is readily available at reasonable prices, might it not be false economy to settle for something else?

sanking
18-Sep-2006, 15:20
What sort of actual dollars are involved here? If what you really want is the G-Claron, which is readily available at reasonable prices, might it not be false economy to settle for something else?

I agree that it would not be good to settle for something else if one has their heart set on a 355 G-Claron.

However, that the 355 G-Claron is the best choice for 11X14 is not a slam dunk. There are advantages and disadvantages. From my perspective, a lens like the 360mm Symmar S or Rodenstock Apo Sironar N or S would be more attractive for 11X14 than the 355 G-Claron because they are multi-coated and give a much brighter image on the ground glass.

On the other hand, if you need the greater coverage of the G-Claron, which goes up to 12X20, or you like the more compact size, this is the lens for you.

Sandy King

Sheldon N
18-Sep-2006, 15:24
Does the 360mm APO Sironar N cover 11x14? I read the specs as it only having a 435mm image circle. The 480mm version would definitely cover, but I'd bet that's a fair bit more expensive.

sanking
18-Sep-2006, 15:39
Does the 360mm APO Sironar N cover 11x14? I read the specs as it only having a 435mm image circle. The 480mm version would definitely cover, but I'd bet that's a fair bit more expensive.

Specifications are often meaningless when we talk about ULF where we contact print or make moderate enlargements. I don't have the exact specs on hand, but Schenider gives coverage of the 355 G-Claron as only about 465mm, or so, but in fact it covers a full 12X20 (= 595mm) when stopped down.

The circle of illumination of the 360 Rodenstock Sironar N is not as great as that of the G-Claron, but it is still plenty large enough for 11X14.

Sandy

Sheldon N
18-Sep-2006, 15:46
Yes, I know that Schneider is often very conservative when it comes to specifying their image circles, I just hadn't heard offhand whether the same was true for Rodenstock as well. Some lenses vignette mechanically rather than optically, too which could be a concern if you're looking for excess coverage on 11x14.

I noticed that Glennview Photo (not to bring up an unpopular name) had a 355mm G-Claron listed for $700. For once their price actually looks reasonable!

Frank Petronio
18-Sep-2006, 18:04
Gee, I think a reasonable 360 Sironar in a modern Copal 3 for $6-700 would be a no brainer. Why mess with all that vintage stuff and shutter mounting unless you have a specific need for a certain lens. A Sironar will look good at any aperture, provide amble coverage, and you'll get a reliable shutter for aabout the same ort less than trying to find a Copal 3 on its own and having SK Grimes mount a funky barrell lenses into it.

You could always add a "Lens Baby" type lenses later for cheap.

alec4444
18-Sep-2006, 18:22
From my perspective, a lens like the 360mm Symmar S or Rodenstock Apo Sironar N or S would be more attractive for 11X14 than the 355 G-Claron because they are multi-coated and give a much brighter image on the ground glass.

On the other hand, if you need the greater coverage of the G-Claron, which goes up to 12X20, or you like the more compact size, this is the lens for you.

Hey Sandy,

Your post would seem to suggest that the G-Claron actually has a bigger image circle than the Symmar S...is that true? Granted, Schneider's image circle specs are always way conservative; but if they're proportionally conservative that would put the Symmar S at the advantage....by quite a bit! (Well, 444 vs 491...)

This is what made the decision to not bid on a 360mm Symmar S which ended at $450 so damn hard. If it's a farce, let me know and I'll sleep better! =)

--A

sanking
18-Sep-2006, 18:33
Hey Sandy,

Your post would seem to suggest that the G-Claron actually has a bigger image circle than the Symmar S...is that true? Granted, Schneider's image circle specs are always way conservative; but if they're proportionally conservative that would put the Symmar S at the advantage....by quite a bit! (Well, 444 vs 491...)

This is what made the decision to not bid on a 360mm Symmar S which ended at $450 so damn hard. If it's a farce, let me know and I'll sleep better! =)

--A

Alec,

I just don't know for sure about the Symmar S. I owned and used a 355 Symmar Convertible in a Compound 5 shutter for several years, and it covered 12X20 as well as the 355 G-Claron. In fact, in retrospect I regret getting rid of the Symmar Convertible to get the G-Claron, because it cost me a lot in brightness on the ground glass and no advantage other than the smaller filter size.

But I have never actually tested a Symmar S. Some people have told me that the Symmar S covers slightly less than the Symmar Convertible, and by extension the G-Claron, but I don't know this as a fact.

However, for 11X14 I would bet dollars to dimes that 355 or 360 Symmar S would cover nicely. I have a 360 Rodenstock Sironar N and it covers 11X14 nicely, and everything I have heard or read indicates that the Symmar S has even larger coverage.

Sandy King

Kirk Fry
18-Sep-2006, 21:53
You know you could buy 355mm G-clarons for less than $100 not too long ago. At least in the last 5 years. I bought two they were such a good deal. If you snooze you lose.
The 360 symmars go for about the cost of a No 3 shutter they are in. A 19 inch Artar would work pretty well.

Kirk

erie patsellis
18-Sep-2006, 22:47
an alternative for low $$ would be a 360mm 5.6 Componon with a packard....


erie

alec4444
19-Sep-2006, 15:25
Ok, settled. Got a 360mm Schneider Symmar (the convertible one) (http://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/symmar/data/5,6-360mm.html) in a Compound 4 shutter. It's a tank, but it's bright (and convertible) and it'll cover the 11x14 with absurd movements. This won't be my last lens, and someday I may replace it with a different lens from the same focal length. But it'll do to start out. I can't tell what I'm going to want or need in the field unless I start off buying something so I can actually get out in the field!

Generally speaking, it's about half the price of the G-Claron in today's market conditions. That's the difference of an 11x14 filmholder.

I'm usually a rather decisive person. I was with the ULF camera itself. Liked 11x14 and 7x17. Chose 11x14 and never looked back. Lenses are hard!!! There's so many to choose from, so many variables, so many pros & cons of this vs. that. It's maddening! Add to the mix people's preferences for this one and that, and you're really up a creek.

The funny thing is, I bet that if you took the Symmar S, the G-Claron, a Rodenstock 360, and a Nikon 360W and took the same photo on the same camera and compared contact sheets you couldn't tell the difference. Wish I had the money to prove it... =)

--A

Jim Galli
19-Sep-2006, 15:35
Ok, settled. Got a 360mm Schneider Symmar (the convertible one) (http://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/symmar/data/5,6-360mm.html) in a Compound 4 shutter. It's a tank, but it's bright (and convertible) and it'll cover the 11x14 with absurd movements. This won't be my last lens, and someday I may replace it with a different lens from the same focal length. But it'll do to start out. I can't tell what I'm going to want or need in the field unless I start off buying something so I can actually get out in the field!

--A
Excellent place to begin. IF you are lucky enough to stumble upon a 485mm Schneider Repro Claron (they're quite hard to find) in barrel, it can share the same shutter with your Symmar.

alec4444
1-Oct-2006, 19:37
Ok, I guess I'm just not meant to own the G-Claron. There was one on eBay, and about 10 minutes before the auction ended my wireless internet connection died. No big deal, signed into dialup. Went to place my bid in the last minute of the auction, and my connection froze!! So my bid (well above the winning one) NEVER MADE IT IN!

<explative>, <explative> <explative>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--A

Oren Grad
1-Oct-2006, 19:46
Ok, I guess I'm just not meant to own the G-Claron.

Repeat after me: Symmar-S, Symmar-S...

Forget the wimpy G-Claron. Start hoisting a 360 Symmar-S regularly, and before you know it you'll be shooting the big Wisner hand-held.

tim atherton
1-Oct-2006, 19:47
Ok, I guess I'm just not meant to own the G-Claron. There was one on eBay, and about 10 minutes before the auction ended my wireless internet connection died. No big deal, signed into dialup. Went to place my bid in the last minute of the auction, and my connection froze!! So my bid (well above the winning one) NEVER MADE IT IN!

<explative>, <explative> <explative>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--A

As good an argument as any for using sniping software... (assuming you highest bid actually was above the highest the winner was willing to bid) - you could even have run a trial bid for free at bidnapper (and probably at others to)

Kevin Crisp
1-Oct-2006, 19:48
Go sign up for auctionsniper.com. The bid you want will be made at the last minute automatically. (Or, better still, the last 7 seconds or so.) If costs very little, and only if you win. Sitting there with your atomic clock counting down the seconds and feverishly entering a bid at the last minute isn't worth it. And if it makes you feel better, realize that just missing something doesn't mean you just missed it. You bid 320 and someone gets it for 320.50. Does that mean you "just" lost out on it? Possibly, but probably not. Maybe they had a proxy bid for $425.

alec4444
1-Oct-2006, 20:11
Repeat after me: Symmar-S, Symmar-S...

Forget the wimpy G-Claron. Start hoisting a 360 Symmar-S regularly, and before you know it you'll be shooting the big Wisner hand-held.

LOL. Thanks for cheering me up. I like the 360mm Symmar S. Hell, I like plain old 360mm Symmar Convertible. The G-Claron offered a few small advantages:

1) Lighter. I actually don't care a whole lot about the carry weight, I just feel like it puts some strain on the wood at longer extensions. That may not be a typical use case, but it's something to consider.
2) Filter size. That's a bigger deal for me. I guess i can just hold some 4x6 gels in front of the lens. Not as elegant a solution, though.

But I truly think that was the final straw for the Claron. That last aucion really got my goat. I'm now a member of AuctionSniper (thanks for the referral) but I think it's hands-off on the Clarons from now on.

Symmar, Symmar, Symmar.... :p

Kevin Crisp
1-Oct-2006, 20:40
Alec -- I've sent you a p.m.

neil poulsen
29-Oct-2006, 08:36
The Caltar 360mm Caltar-S II was Calumet's version of the Symmar - S. (The Caltar II-S is a Rodenstock lens.)

The filter size is very large at a bit over 120mm. Consider filtering behind the lens.

Jim Rice
29-Oct-2006, 10:12
Neil, The Caltar II-N is the Calumet branded Sironar-N. I believe both the 360 Sironar-N and the Symmar-S share the same 105mm front filter size.

Ole Tjugen
29-Oct-2006, 10:56
Buying barrel-mounted G-Claron 355's can be a cheap way to great coverage, as long as you get the correct version. Some mount directly into a Copal #3, while some mount directly into a Compound #3.

I was lucky and got the Compound-compatible version, as I had a spare shutter. :)