90/4.5 Grandagon N - Sharp wide open?

[vincent Martin]

Hello!
I'm moving into LF from MF - I'm considering this lens for general urban documentary work including landscape and portraiture (I'm talking environmental portraits - not head and shoulders).
I'm aware of the theory that generally LF lenses are not designed to be used wide open. However as I'm going to use the lens in conjunction with the Fotoman 45PS, being able to shoot wide open would be a big advantage in low light where a tripod is not possible.
I would like to hear your opinions on using this lens wide open.
I'm also interested to hear about other lenses which may be sharper and generally perform very well wide open - considering apertures of 4.5 or 5.6 - focal length 90-180mm.
There is a compatibility list of lenses for the 45PS here:

http://www.fotomancamera.com/prodect_list.asp?id=190

I'm sorry if this is an old question - I searched the forum but couldn't find anything relevant.

Thankyou!

[Amund BLix Aaeng]

FWIW, I had a Fujinon 150mm f/5.6 that was very sharp wide open, here`s a scan : http://www.pbase.com/plexi/image/52320279/original

[Ed Richards]

How do you plan on focusing this if you use it on a Fotoman? Unless you use the ground glass, which means a tripod, shooting a 90 at 4.5 is going to require better focus accuracy than you are going to get with guess focusing. Go for a graphic or an old Linhof rangerfinder with a cammed lens if you want to shoot at anything wider than about F16. Anything longer and DOF is going to be even more interesting. That, or get a good Metz flash.:-)

[Ron Marshall]

I put some numbers in a depth of field calculator:

At f4.5 on 4x5 with a 90mm lens, with a subject distance of 10 feet the depth of field is 5 feet; with a subject distance of 20 feet the depth of field is 26 feet.

The hyperfocal distance is 39 feet.

Not very good for near far compositions, but for an environmental portrait with an out of focus background it would be fine.

[Dan Fromm]

Ron, are you sure you didn't make a mistake? Or did you use a large CoC?

I ask because http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html gives an answer wildly at variance with yours. 4x5 film, 90 mm lens, f/4.5, focused distance 10'. Near limit 8.59', far limit 12', hyperfocal distance 59.5'

[Ron Marshall]

Ron, are you sure you didn't make a mistake? Or did you use a large CoC?

I ask because http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html gives an answer wildly at variance with yours. 4x5 film, 90 mm lens, f/4.5, focused distance 10'. Near limit 8.59', far limit 12', hyperfocal distance 59.5'

Dan, here is the link to the calculator I used. They used 150 micrometers as the COC for 4x5. Of course that is flexible, and really can only be determined by how large one intends to enlarge the neg. and how sharp they want it to be. But my point was not to give him an exact value but an idea how difficult it might be to shoot using a prefocus.

http://bobatkins.com/photography/technical/dofcalc.html#calc

[Ted Harris]

The other answer is use a faster film and stop it down. When I was testing teh Fotoman 45PS I used mainly ISO 400 film and no trouble getting sharp images using zone focusing with the lens usually stopped down to somewhere between f11 and f32. With reasonable I had no trouble handholding with shutter speeds of 1/30 or faster.

[Frank Petronio]

In terms of absolute sharpness wide open, yes, it should be sharp as hell. At f/11 it will be even sharper. But all the other factors shuch as shutter speed, camera shake, and focusing accuracy will have 100X more impact on your image quality than the performance of the 90/4.5 over a lesser (cheaper - lighter - smaller) lens.

The 90/4.5 will have more even illumination over the 5 inch frame than a lesser lens. However, this is a less important concern for a "street camera". IMHO you would be better off sacrificing a stop or so and going with a much more compact and managable 90/6.8 Grandagon -- which will also be excellent at f/6.8 -- which will give you a touch more depth of field (which you will want anyway) and just being more disciplined to live with the f/6.8 for handheld work. Even if you have unlimited $ and can afford the f/4.5 I think I'd still go for the smaller 6.8 in this case.

One small lens that would be even better IMHO would be the 75/4.5 Grandagon - it is fast, small, and would give you depth of field to spare - slightly wider but that would be good in this case.

[vincent Martin]

Thankyou for your advice gentlemen, it is much appreciated!
For impromptu environmental portraits zone focussing would be the only way -
I'm starting to think of going wider - maybe 47-75mm - What is your opinion on the best value, compact super-wide (in 45-75mm range) which is sharp at wider apertures?

[David A. Goldfarb]

I have the 75/4.5 Grandagon-N and the 55/4.5 Apo-Grandagon, and they are both quite sharp wide open. The 55 might be difficult to work with on 4x5" unless you really like superwides (like 14mm on a 35mm camera), but it would be a good match for a 6x12 back on a handheld camera, since part of the difficulty of using a lens that wide is dealing with the large foreground and sky. I'm having the 75/4.5 cammed for my 4x5" Technika V as we speak, so I'm really looking forward to using this handheld very soon.

I used to have a 75/8 Super-Angulon, which was not as sharp in general as the newer Grandagon-N, and of course not as fast, but it was nice and compact for a handheld camera. The 65/8 S-A is also quite small. Both the 65/8 and 75/8 have a 49mm filter thread.

[Ted Harris]

Most of the testing I did with the Fotoman 45PS was with the 75mm f4.5 Grandagon N. I didn't test wider for both the reasons David mentions and the fact that I doubt many folks who would consider a Fotoman purchase own or would buy lenses wider than 75mm for any other use.

The camera also works fine with a 135mm lens, or anything in between 75 and 135 but, of course, the longer you get the mor eprecise you need to be with your zone focusing. Go for the 75mm. Here is an 'environmental portrait' taken with the Fotoman 45PS on Polaroid film handheld using the 75mm. This image is in the artilce on the camera.

Just for fun .... who can identify the subjects? Hint, both forum members.

[Ed Richards]

And do not worry about sharpness for hand held shooting. Sharpness is not much of an issue for any of the new design lenses, but unless you are on a tripod in ideal conditions, real world shooting seldom gets the most out of lenses.

[Ron Marshall]

Thankyou for your advice gentlemen, it is much appreciated!
For impromptu environmental portraits zone focussing would be the only way -
I'm starting to think of going wider - maybe 47-75mm - What is your opinion on the best value, compact super-wide (in 45-75mm range) which is sharp at wider apertures?

I concur with what Frank and Ted have said, the 75mm f4.5 Grandagon.

[vincent Martin]

Thanks chaps! I will be patient, and look for a good s/h copy - its beyond my budget brand new!
Ted, do you have a larger file of the image you posted? It looks razor sharp!

[Frank Petronio]

The look like goths Ted, hanging out in graveyards and all...

[Ted Harris]

Vincent, it is. Do you have a broadband connection to the internet? I will put a hig rez image up on my web site toorrow. The original is aroud 300MB IIRC. If you can't handle that I can put up a smaller one.

Frnk, they are, photogothaphers (ouch).

[Ed Richards]

Thanks chaps! I will be patient, and look for a good s/h copy - its beyond my budget brand new!



If money is an object, forget the fotoman and go for a used crown Graphic and 90 6.8 angulon. You can probably get both for less than a fotoman, and you might even be able to get the rangefinder set for it. While I know you think you will never have time to focus, I use a rangefinder on an old Technika and you will be surprised how handy it is for grab shots. There are some real advantages of a 90 - the 75 is wide enough that you need to be careful to avoid off angle shots or the wide angle distortion will look like a fun house mirror. You can also use a small 75 on a graphic if the 90 is not wide enough and you like doing this.

[vincent Martin]

Ted, Yes, I have broadband, and I can handle the large file - thanks!

Ed, thanks for your suggestion - I will look into this. I had chosen the fotoman owing compact form, portability and simplicity, but I will consider this alternative. Its crucial I get the right set-up which suits my style.

[Ed Richards]

You can treat a graphic like a box camera and, better than the fotoman, you can fold it up with a small lens inside, making the perfect carry around camera. Works for the Technica as well, you just have to have stronger arms.:-)

[Frank Petronio]

Yeah, just to reinforce what Ed is saying, he speaks truth. Plus cheaper cameras are better on the street, where bad things can happen.

Another good way to build a handheld 4x5 is to cobble together a focusing mount, Sinar/Linhof/Arca/Toyo frame and back, and some sort of handgrip. Everything the Fotoman does, somewhat less elegantly, but with the advantage of being able to build it cheaply from eBay parts.

[Henry Ambrose]

I'll add another vote for the Crown Graphic. I had a 90mm Optar on mine and it worked pretty well. I sold that lens but still have a 135 on my Crown. You can defintely "walk around" and shoot handheld with a Crown Graphic. With a 90 you may need to drop the bed which may slow things down a bit. Or crop out the bed if it shows - you end up with a square negative. Like a Hasselbald only 4 times larger. : >))

[Paul Droluk]

For those interested, the COC used to calculate our Helical Focus Mount DOF scales is .058mm. We chose this concervative COC (less than half of the .122 normally used for 4x5) assuming that users of our cameras would want to make large prints... otherwise they would be shooting with a 1DS or D2X, or a smaller film format.

Using our .058mm COC, DOF (in feet) for 75 and 90mm lenses calculates as follows;
75mm @ f4.5 @ 10' = 2.887 75mm @ f8.0 @ 10' = 5.368
90mm @ f4.5 @ 10' = 1.984 90mm @ f8.0 @ 10' = 3.602

I chose 10' for this example because these are wide lenses for environmental "portraiture", and you would likely be working this close with these lenses... certainly with the 75mm. If you adhere to our HFM DOF scale, "sharp" images are assured (within the DOF indicated). The definition for "sharp" being a 16x20 inch print viewed at normal reading distance (assuming 20/20 vision).

The biggest challenge using any Helical Focus Mount is knowing the exact distance to the subject. The ability to guestimate distances quite accurately is learnable with practice, however for precise distance measurements a rangefinder is invaluable. To address this we will soon be releasing our Fotoman Auxilary Rangefinder. A small, easily recalibrate-able, high precision rangefinder to be used either hand held or affixed to the accessory shoe of any camera. Similar to the Voigtlander model of the 1950's with modern multicoated optics and a larger viewing port.

[Ed Richards]

Paul,

Is that neat sliding front going to be availble for the 45s?

[Ted Harris]

Paul's point about focusing is well taken and that is the reason that I keep stressing using the 75mm lens as your "standard" on this camera. A lens this wide obviates much of the need for accuracy. Of course,you still have to have some visual ability to judge howto zone focus but being on-the-money is so much less critical with wide lenses.

[vincent Martin]

Zone focussing is fine but with the rangefinder I think the Fotoman would be even better - I may buy a speed graphic, but I will definitely buy a fotoman now.
Just need to find a good used grandagon 75mm :)