Shen Hao experience [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

Phil M

13-Sep-2006, 03:40

Ed Richards

13-Sep-2006, 05:29

I am interested in experience with wide angle lenses - can it be used with a 58mm on a flat board? How about with the bag bellows?

Ben Crane

13-Sep-2006, 08:24

I bought a Shen-Hao 4x5 about 4 years ago as my first large format camera. I chose it because I wasn't sure if 4x5 would be the format for me so I wanted to start with an inexpensive camera. Overall I've been very happy with it, happy enough that even after using it to make 1000's of negatives I don't see any need for an "upgrade" to a more expensive camera. I've used it with lenses from 75 mm to the Fujinon 400T without difficulty, but the lenses I use most commonly are 150 mm and 210 mm. I do not have the bag bellows although I'm able to use it with the 75 mm with limited movements.

I have not used the monocular viewer nor do I have an desire to.

Overall it has all the movements that I need.

I have not noticed any warping on my model. I did check the alignment of the ground glass soon after I got it and found it to be perfect out of the box.

As for tripods I use a carbon fiber model with a Bogen ball head.

On the downside on my camera the little divits to mark the zero positions aren't precisely placed.

Overall I don't think its possible to go wrong with the Shen Hao because it is such a great camera for the money. Its certainly lacks the precision feel of a Linhof, Arca-Swiss or an Ebony but for the price I think it is an attractive alternative.

dyuhas

13-Sep-2006, 09:18

I've had my Shen-Hao since last March. I have 150mm, 90mm and 300mm lenses. The only problem I've had with it was a spring attached incorrectly. My vendor, Badger Graphic Sales, replaced the back for no charge. In use the major annoyance is the front standard detents. Tilting can be a PITA because the standard wants to slip into the detents. I forget about the problem when I see the transparencies the camera produces.

If I was shooting architecture _for a living_ I wouldn't buy a Shen-Hao. But it's perfect for what I want it for.

Dave

Chris Pandino

13-Sep-2006, 10:22

Just curious about those of us who have entered the LF arena with the Shen Hao 4x5.
How do you like the camera? Did any of you opt for the monocular viewer? Does it make it easier then a dark cloth or just a gadget for the bottom of the gear bag? How is the camera holding up? I like to shoot very early in the day, still damp and misty out. Has the camera endured the moisture without warping? Also curious about tripod choice. I just love the wooden variety and am very close to splurging for a berlebach. Any berlebach users out there who wish to share their sucess or disappointment with this tripod. Thanks to all, happy shooting.
Phil,
I rotate through cameras a bit, but I have owned two HZX45's. In 4x5, I've also shot with a Toyo45D, Sinar P, Crown Graphic and Super Speed Graphic.

I personally really like the HZX as a field camera. Mine have held up well, although they haven't had nearly as much use as Ben's.

I wouldn't bother with the viewer, but think a replacement GG would be a good investment. The Ebony fresnel is excellent and I've been able to get by without a dark cloth on many occasions, even on sunny days. I use a BTZS cloth when I need to see the GG better.

I use a Bogen 3221/3275 combo, but the Berlebachs should serve you well. The camera is not terribly heavy and the tripod mount is very secure.

I've enjoyed using the HZX so much that I'm seriously considering the 5x7 version now and my 4x5 is going on the auction block soon.

If you are serious about technical architecture or tabletop studio shooting you'll get frustrated because the movements are not nearly as precise as a studio camera. If you're into general landscape, portraits, etc. it'll probably suit you just fine. A Crown Graphic would also suit this purpose at much lower cost, but lacks back movements and front standard movements are pretty limited.

Gordon Moat

13-Sep-2006, 10:42

I am interested in experience with wide angle lenses - can it be used with a 58mm on a flat board? How about with the bag bellows?

Hello Ed Richards,

I have an HZX45A-II though so far only used a widest lens of 75mm. I happen to have a metric dial caliper in the office, so I racked the rear standard forward, then placed the front standard back, and measured. Going from a blank lens board to the ground glass I get a reading of 57mm. Oddly enough there is still room for some movements, quite likely enough for any 58mm lens coverage. The limitation is the front standard carrier running into the back standard carrier. None of the other parts touch, and this was checked using the regular bellows, since I do not have the bag bellows. I will likely get a bag bellows later, since it can be helpful when doing large movements with short focal length lenses.

Okay, so here is another trick, if you want to use an even shorter focal length than 58mm. There is an axis tilt on the rear standard, move that backward, which tilts the rear standard forward. Then use the base tilt on the rear standard, and move the rear standard back to being perpendicular with the bed of the camera. Then move the front standard until the base of that will not go back any further. Taking another measurement with my dial caliper gives me 51mm.

A 45mm Rodenstock APO Grandagon has a flange focal length of 55.5mm. A Schneider Super Angulon 38mm XL has a flange focal distance of 52.1mm. Neither of these cover 4x5, though you can get 6x9 shots, with room for a little movement. Now why you would want to use either of these, or a 58mm, on a flat board I have no idea, but if you got a recessed board you could make things much simpler.

Also, I measured 11mm of up shift movement possible in either of these extreme set-ups. There is no swing because the front standard is resting on the rear standard. Forward tilt is possible. Downward shift is possible and a bit more than 11mm. Rear tilt is possible, but not rear swing. About 7mm of rear shift either left or right is possible.

Anyway, hope that answered your question. If you want to try this out, I suggest getting the bag bellows, since the standard one will limit movements only really short focal lengths.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

Gordon Moat

13-Sep-2006, 10:54

Just curious about those of us who have entered the LF arena with the Shen Hao 4x5.
How do you like the camera? Did any of you opt for the monocular viewer? Does it make it easier then a dark cloth or just a gadget for the bottom of the gear bag? How is the camera holding up? I like to shoot very early in the day, still damp and misty out. Has the camera endured the moisture without warping? Also curious about tripod choice. I just love the wooden variety and am very close to splurging for a berlebach. Any berlebach users out there who wish to share their sucess or disappointment with this tripod. Thanks to all, happy shooting.

Hello Phil M,

Congratulations on your new camera. I came back into 4x5 photography by getting a new Shen-Hao in January. I have used several other field and rail cameras, and previously owned a Toyo Field camera.

Initially the camera was a bit stiff in movements, but some carefully applied bicycle lube helped that immensely. Toughest aspect was figuring out how to open and close the camera.

After shooting numerous boxes of Readyloads and Quickloads, my HZX45A-II is holding up fine. I plan on making the bicycle lube application an annual maintenance procedure.

On a very humid day, under the dark cloth, I did manage to fog up the ground glass once. That was the only moisture related incident. I don't think I would want to get the camera wet, though it would probably clean up fine. After all, some boats are made out of teak.

My tripod is currently a Bogen 3021N with a 3047 pan tilt head. I use the large hex quick release plates. While sort of heavy, it is a sturdy set-up. I actually looked into getting the table top Berlebach, which I think might work well in some more crowded urban locations, though my other option is a custom platform mount using another 3047 head. I don't worry much about banging a metal tripod against things, but I might worry about a wood tripod.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

CXC

13-Sep-2006, 12:02

I started out with a Shen Hao, and I was quite happy with it. Eventually I switched to another camera with way more bellows. I have no reservations recommending it as a starter, or for that matter to anybody satisfied with its movements and bellows.

I've had a bad experience with a wooden tripod, and must advise that you make sure you understand what features you give up in order to get that pretty wood, which of course may clash (visually) with the camera. If you have the opportunity to play with the model you want before purchase, do it. In particular, how hard is it to level.

The Shen Hao is not heavy, and accommodates neither giant lenses nor excessive extension, so a modest tripod may be perfectly sufficient.

Use a dark cloth, forget the viewer thingie.

optV

13-Sep-2006, 14:35

I too started out with a HZX45-IIa. Overall, I am very satasfied with the camera, the standard bellows is enough for some minor movements on my 75mm 6.8 lens.

There are however some annoyances:

As previously stated (and there are many threads on this), the 0-center dents are not exact which can be EXTREMELY annoying at times. For example, on my shen-hao, the rear axis tilt is way off and it is technically center when it is out of the dent. If I ever want to use rear rise, I have to loosen the center tilt knob, causing the standard to tilt (snap) into the 0-dent. I usually opt to not use rear rise because of this. Aligning it is a pain because they didn't put a spirit level in the front standard, only the rear.

Another problem I have is the rear swing locking lever. It locks fine when the standard is centered or swung towards the left, but it doesn't lock down properly when swung to the right.

Also, be careful not to overtighten any knobs.

It may sound like I'm anti shen-hao, but I'm not, overall I love my shen-hao's small size, versitile movements and cheap price. I will continue to use it for a long while I'm sure, but the camera (at least mine) is not without problems. My next camera will probably be a wista (or something very similar to the shen-hao), just more well made (and pricey :( )

For the tripod, I use a bogen 3021 with a 3047 head and it is very sturdy. I also have a large wooden tripod which is big, heavy and clumsy, I skip it every time.

Gordon Moat

13-Sep-2006, 22:24

I too started out with a HZX45-IIa. . . . .

Another problem I have is the rear swing locking lever. It locks fine when the standard is centered or swung towards the left, but it doesn't lock down properly when swung to the right.
. . . . . . .

Hello optV,

I had a problem with that rear swing lock lever too. What I noticed on mine is that the handle can screw into two different places on that part. As it came from the factory, I had to push the lever to lock it down, which would often place it in a tough to unlock position. So what I did was unscrew the handle, and place it into the other threaded hole. Now the lever is unlocked when pushed towards the standard, and sits more towards the left side; when I want that to lock, I pull the lever outwards. The change makes it very easy to unlock that lever whenever I want to change the position of the rear standard.

I measured everything with a dial caliper, and all parts are well aligned. I guess that is perhaps a quality control or inspection issue that some people find these to be off specifications. In a way I view the Shen-Hao as a camera that could encourage some little changes, or a different approach like changing the rear standard swing and shift locking lever. To me that is a good thing. Same thing with lubing various parts for smoother movements . . . maybe it should have left the factory that way, but I don't mind doing that as maintenance.

Anyway, hope the lever position change solves your problems. I don't know if I have an unusual HZX45A-II with those two threaded holes in that part, but if anyone else has this same part configuration, I highly recommend changing the position of that lever.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

Jack Flesher

13-Sep-2006, 22:31

Hello optV,
So what I did was unscrew the handle, and place it into the other threaded hole. Now the lever is unlocked when pushed towards the standard, and sits more towards the left side; when I want that to lock, I pull the lever outwards. The change makes it very easy to unlock that lever whenever I want to change the position of the rear standard.

A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

Yep -- I did the same thing with mine. Definitely a more convenient solution.

optV

13-Sep-2006, 23:30

Marco

13-Sep-2006, 23:38

I can't comment on the Shen Hao since I don't have one, but I'm a satisfied Berlebach tripod user, I have a 9043 model for 4 years now and I'm very happy with it, I've used it with a Gandolfi Variant Level 1 4x5", which is much more heavier than the Shen Hao, and various lenses (Nikkor 75SW, Schneider Apo Simmar 150mm and Nikkor 300M), , and the tripod with this equipment never disappointed me, it was always very stable and absorbed vibrations very well (much much better than a metal tripod)...my model is the one with the tilting column and a bubble level in it, so levelling the tripod is very easy and if you want you can use it without and head, saving weight...now sometimes I use the Berlebach with a Calumet C1 8x10" and a Sinar F2 8x10" and, while not stable as with a 4x5" configuration, it does a decent job anyway ;)...here is my review of the 9043 model, sorry it's in italian, you can try to translate it with babel fish or something similar:

http://www.fotoavventure.it/freecontent/berlebach/index.php

Ciao
Marco

Mark Pope

14-Sep-2006, 11:22

I've had my HZX45II for just about three months. When I bought it, a work colleague who's an Ebony user commented on how well made it was. The widest lens that I use is a 75mm. It was originally on a recessed board. Now I have the bag bellows, I have replaced the recessed board with a flat one. The bag bellows definitely help: the movements are very stiff with the normal bellows. I do however find that sometimes the bellows material gets in the way of the front controls, making it a little tricky to apply tilt.
I also have a 150mm and 210mm lens.

I use an old Gitzo 224 tripod with a Manfrotto 029 head (I have no idea what the Bogen model number is). The combination is really sturdy although it's a bit heavy. I occasionally hanker after a Gitzo Mountaineer carbon fibre tripod, but I baulk at the thought of paying almost as much for the tripod as I did for the camera!

I don't use a reflex viewer. I have a heavy focusing cloth that I fit to the carrying handle with a large bulldog clip. I don't have any real problems viewing an upside-down image, although it does take some getting used to.

The camera has loads of movements - probably way more than you need. The majority of the time I find that just front tilt and some rise/fall is all I need. I ocassionally play with rear tilt and have used the rear shift on odd occasions.

The bellows extend to 300mm in 'normal' configuration. You can extend the bellows to 360mm using some jiggery-pokery, but I wouldn't want to use the camera in this way. It just doesn't seem rigid enough. One day, I'll get a 300mm lens, but I'm almost certain that it will be a telephoto lens rather than a long-focus design.

Overall, I'm delighted with the camera. I think it's fine as a beginner's camera and I suspect it will be fine for many years.

walter23

27-Dec-2006, 12:12

Hello optV,

I had a problem with that rear swing lock lever too. What I noticed on mine is that the handle can screw into two different places on that part. As it came from the factory, I had to push the lever to lock it down, which would often place it in a tough to unlock position. So what I did was unscrew the handle, and place it into the other threaded hole. Now the lever is unlocked when pushed towards the standard, and sits more towards the left side; when I want that to lock, I pull the lever outwards. The change makes it very easy to unlock that lever whenever I want to change the position of the rear standard.

Sort of an older thread, but I was looking through the archive for something and rediscovered this. I've had my shenhao for a couple of months now and I also had this problem with the rear movement lock not being tight. I talked to badger and they recommended a thicker plastic washer between the locking ring and the moving parts that lock down, but sent me the wrong piece (no big deal, they've been a great dealer in all other respects). I had to makeshift a result from the hardware store that didn't carry the proper washer size, so I found two washers of different sizes that mated with each other perfectly to form a single washer with the right hole & outer dimensions, and now it tightens up beautifully; tighter in the normal configuration, but normally tight in the swing-right config that used to just flop around. I didn't want to move the lever to the other hole as Gordon suggests because this results in the lever protruding too much from the back which makes it more annoying to package away in my backpack (even in the loose, lever-to-the-left configuration). Adding the washer increases thickness just enough that it tightens up great.

Anyway, that aside, I really like the Shen Hao. This is my first large format camera, and I find that it's quite easy to perform whatever movements I want. Movements are limited with the 90mm lens / standard bellows combination, and I'm often too lazy to switch to the bag bellows, but that's my problem and not the camera's.

With the right bellows for the lens, the camera outperforms my lenses (90 f/6.8 grandagon-N and 210 f/5.6 apo-sironar N) in terms of available movements. I almost always use back movements (rise and/or shift) to fine tune my composition, and I'm very glad I didn't get something like a tachihara because of this. About the only movements I haven't been using regularly are the axis tilts (the front one is just there for extra bellows extension when you need it, and base tilts are quicker to do on the rear standard). Generally speaking my lenses run out of coverage long before the camera runs out of movement, though I've used base tilts & camera tilt to get some extra rise with my 210mm lens which has fairly good coverage.

Actually I do have one other minor gripe; the gridlines on the ground glass are not aligned properly with the edges of the film - they're slanted by about 2 degrees. I plan to fix this some day because it is a huge pain in the ass for architecture. I've been relying on the bubble level to get verticals right, but I've still had some trouble with buildings because of this. At some point I plan to get a replacement glass and make up a better grid.

Bobf

28-Dec-2006, 07:00

I use a reflex viewer (mine is from a Cambo but it is the same but with a different base assembly - a bit of Velcro fixes that). Down side is that with my 90mm SA, even with a Fresnel, it is dark in the corners making composition borderline as you can't alter your viewing position to move the hot-spot. That problem disappears with my longer lenses (180mm & 360mm). Having said that, I still use the viewer probably 90% of the time to compose if only because the standing position is so much more comfortable!

Cheers, Bob.

Scott Davis

28-Dec-2006, 08:27

I've had mine for about six years now. It has been a terrific performer. The only mod I've done to mine was to immediately replace the gg with a Canham gg/fresnel combo. Mine has seen field duty in extremes of heat, cold, altitude and humidity (alpine desert in the Sierra Nevada and a trek to Bodie, Lands' End beach in San Francisco, shooting in the snow at Swallow Falls, Maryland (not far from Fallingwater, the Frank Lloyd Wright house)). I have never had a problem with humidity or aridness affecting the camera. It still looks good even after six years of backpacking, shooting portraits in the studio, and being ridden hard and put away wet. For the money, you can't do better.

No comment on the berlebach, as I use a Bogen carbon-fiber pod with the Shen Hao. I know lots of folks who are very happy with them, but as previously mentioned, get your hands on one and play with it if possible before you commit, to make sure it is really what you want.

ljb0904

6-Feb-2007, 18:02

I've had my Shen Hao for almost a year. Well actually it's a Sunfoto knockoff. As far as movements go, it's an awesome camera to work with. I really liked it to learn what movements did what as it had everything. The workmanship was shoddy; I lost nuts, knobs fell off, the bed was extremely sloppy when extended. I checked out a real Shen-Hao from Badger and found the build quality to be better, but not that much better.

At this point I'm using the original 4x5 that I bought from Adorama's used dept - an Osaka wood field. It (with a little modification) has all the movements that the Shen Hao has except rear shift, which I don't need. It's lighter and the construction feels more solid. The back is just a little sloppy but not as sloppy as the entire bed construction of the Shen Hao.

Both cameras work very well with my lens choices: 75mm, 135mm, 240mm, 400mm-T. I'd like to have a little more close focusing ability to which end I just ordered the wista extension tube set. The only thing that is really difficult is the macro shots where I can see the benefit of rear standard focusing. This is where I start dreaming of ebony or arca-swiss. But for all regular scenics, both the Osaka and the Shen-Hao are great learning tools and reasonable entry points in terms of price.

walter23

6-Feb-2007, 19:50

Hah, I already responded to this thread in December. Silly resurfacing threads. I'll keep the stuff below just because I wrote a lot of crap, but.. .yeah. Egg on my face.

I'm absolutely thrilled with mine. There's nothing about it that I regret, and in particular I'm very glad that it has the shift movement on the back (unlike, for example, the toyo 45CF or tachihara), which I end up using quite. I find the range of movements is ample (my lenses run out of coverage before my camera runs out of movements), and I use a fair bit of movements, either to isolate subjects with selective focus, or to control perspective for architecture, and of course depth of field control in landscapes. I have the bag bellows and I find it necessary if I'm going to use any large movements with my 90mm grandagon (caltar labelled). For a typical landscape shot with just a bit of front tilt and slight composition fine tuning with few millimeters of shift/rise I don't have to switch to the bag bellows - the standard one is fine.

Just curious about those of us who have entered the LF arena with the Shen Hao 4x5.
How do you like the camera? Did any of you opt for the monocular viewer?

No comment - I didn't get the viewer. It might make low down compositions easier, which is the only thing I find very difficult (not a Shen Hao flaw, just a problem in general with view cameras).

How is the camera holding up? I like to shoot very early in the day, still damp and misty out. Has the camera endured the moisture without warping?

Can't comment much on that; I've used it in -30C weather at home, and in mild ocean spray / rain sprinkles on the west coast, and it's as good as new. (I've only had it for about 4 months, but it's gone on two long road trips and has seen fairly heavy use).

Also curious about tripod choice. I just love the wooden variety and am very close to splurging for a berlebach. Any berlebach users out there who wish to share their sucess or disappointment with this tripod. Thanks to all, happy shooting.

I'm using a manfrotto 055B with a low end but fairly solid pan/tilt head (can't remember the exact model number). I think USAians call the tripod a bogen 3021 or something like that. It's not huge (it probably wouldn't hold a 600mm f/4 or an 8x10 very easily) but it's perfectly suited to my shen hao.

If I were to complain about things these would be my complaints (but they were parts of the compromise I knew I was making when I bought the camera in the first place, so they don't bother me at all):

1. 360mm maximum bellows. No extreme macro for me, although if I ever get the urge I'll get something like the nikkor 120 and a close up diopter or two which should be good. I have done > 1:1 macro with my 90mm lens, so it's not totally inadequate in this regard - just not made for 5:1 or anything ridiculous like that. This also limits long lens use - I haven't tried a 300 but I think I would be able to use one, but that's the limit. Again, no big deal, I knew about it to start with and I'm really quite happy with my 210mm lens.

2. Need to use bag bellows for 90mm with large movements. This isn't unusual, but there are some expensive higher end field cameras that let you get more movement out of the stock bellows. The tachihara apparently does to. Whatever; the bag bellows is relatively cheap ($99) and easy to switch.

3. It's not totally rock solid at long bellows extensions (though I'm not sure how this compared to other wood fields - I suspect it's similar). I've never had a bad image because of it, so it's not bad, just something you have to be careful of. With my 210mm lens focused near infinity or on something at sort of a normal distance (e.g. 10 feet) it's solid, I'm talking about near maximum extension here. It locks down tight though; this is just a function of the wooden rails vibrating when they are totally racked out. Again it's never affected an image, you just have to take some care when doing close up work.

4. The way it came to me from badger graphic, the rear standard wouldn't lock down tight. The washer that provides friction to the locking mechanism wasn't thick enough to give it enough tension when you tighten it up (using a lever), so I had to add an additional washer to fill in the space and allow it to tighten fully. This was a very easy repair to do (you just do it by hand by moving the rear standard forward a bit and then unscrewing the locking lever, then add the washer, and put the locking lever back in place), but I had to do some searching to get the right kind of washer. An alternate way to fix it is to move the locking lever to another hole on the, uhh, locking nut thing, which lets you turn it further, but this causes the lever to protrude from the back when locked down which is sort of annoying. I opted to find the right (odd) sized washer, which I actually did by finding two washers (one with the right inner diameter, and one with the right outer diameter) which fit perfectly inside one another to make a single bigger washer. I think badger graphic will do this repair for free if you buy from them. I had them send me a washer but they sent the wrong one accidentally, so I just went to the hardware store. The length of this makes this sound like a bigger issue than it was - it really didn't bother me, it was a very simple fix and now it's rock solid. Apparently it's an issue other people have had though so I figured I'd give you a heads up on it.

But I want to make it perfectly clear that I've only mentioned these things so you can make an informed decision. They don't bother me in the slightest, and I have no regrets in getting the Shen Hao.

Chris Strobel

6-Feb-2007, 21:38

I love mine.Bought it from Badger, and on my sample the finish, fit, and hardware are perfect.Only have a !50mm Nikkor W for it.All my other lenses are dedicated to my 8x10.I use a bogen 3221/3045 combo tripod wise for it.Also when I ordered it, I got the fresnel ground glass option for it, and am glad I did.