Best Handheld 4X5?

[Kirk Fry]

Best Handheld 4X5?

I need help from folks who have actually done this. So the goal is outdoor landscapes from a moving platform, think boat (maybe plane) and forget tripods. I have 4 4X5 cameras, they multiply in the closet. None would work. So I started reading and narrowed things down. I have lots of lenses, especially a 135mm f4.7 Xenar that will work and an old 90 mm Angulon. I don’t anticipate needing anything else and if I do I have it. Lenses breed too.

So the budget has to be less than $500 ish. (No Master technika’s). That leaves ratty Tech IV’s, III’s and the Graphics So I looked at Speeds and Crowns, and read that the Speeds are great for non-shuttered lenses and don’t work for wider than 90mm (not an issue). I do have a bunch of non-shuttered lenses, but the long ones won’t work. The weight is an issue. So on to the Crowns. There are top and side range finder models and I read somewhere the side range finders with Graflock back (1947-55 ish) are the best as the side view finder is easier to deal with. No idea if this is true. So what model of a Speed Graphic is considered the optimal choice?

Then I discovered the Super (Speed + -) Graphic. This was Graflex’s answer to the Nikon F. We know how that came out. Anyway, this looks like a very cool camera. What are the traps? Yes, I read about the shutter release batteries. What about the Toyo models of this camera? Should I stick to a good Crown? What about a Technika, I have a Karden and it is very nice and very heavy. Help. Other creative solutions?

Kirk (Fry)

[MJSfoto1956]

Could you go to $800 for a new camera? (assuming you already own a lens).

If so, the Gaoersi 4x5 might fit the bill. I just used it handheld in Santa Fe a few weeks back with a 6x12 back and Portra 400NC and it was really freeing to lose the tripod! It just so happens that within the next few weeks an in-depth review of this camera will appear in the premiere issue of MAGNAchrom. Pmail me if you'd like more information.

[John Kasaian]

Either a speeder or a crown would work fine---thats the sort of stuff they were made for(the speeder would have a blindingly fast focal plane shutter if thats what you need) If you want a "box" type camera to shoot at infinity the Gowland Aerials are very nice too, though they are designed around a (I think) either a 210 or 150 Nikkor lens. Have fun!

[Frank Petronio]

IMHO, it is really hard to beat a Crown. I owned a Super Speed and it is nice too but not necessiarly better. Of course a Technika is nicer quality but... not any more usable. Part of the usablility factor is being able to pull and insert film holders, cock the shutter, not having it be too heavy, etc. which aren't always obvious until you shoot with them.

Plus if you drop a Crown you're only out $200 at most... meaning you can take them outside in the rain, storms, riots, etc.

[Richard Kelham]

It definitely sounds like you need a press/technical camera, and one with a good, accurate rangefinder. I hear that the Kalart RFs were best for the Graphics. To go with it you need a cammed lens (usually a Xenar 135mm for the MPP or Linhof cameras). Other than that it doesn't seem to matter whether it's a Busch, a Graphic, an MPP or a Linhof, or anything else that I've not heard of!

The Linhof does have a nice anatomical grip to make hand-holding easier...


Richard

[GPS]

The last thing you need for photography from a plane or even a boat
is a good and accurate rangefinder, don't you think? Grab a new 45PS Fotoman and you'll have what you need.

[MJSfoto1956]

The last thing you need for photography from a plane or even a boat
is a good and accurate rangefinder, don't you think? Grab a new 45PS Fotoman and you'll have what you need.
I think this is an excellent recommendation, especially given that the Fotoman is right in your price ballpark. Probably about as ideal as you can get for shooting large format from a moving vehicle. Quick question: are you going to use ReadyLoads? or Film Holders?

[Walter Calahan]

Crown Graphic with a 90 mm. You're not going to be shooting anything close-up as you speed along, so accurate focus isn't much of an issue when pretty much everything will be near or at infinity.

[Neal Wydra]

Dear Kirk,

Just to muddy the waters further, the top mounted rangefinder would be my choice for the Crown. While it does require changing cams, the change takes little time compared to the Kalart. One advantage of the press cameras over the Fotoman is the ability to use the Grafmatic backs.

Whatever your choice, I hope it works well for you.

Neal Wydra

[Patrik Roseen]

Best Handheld 4X5?

... I have lots of lenses, especially a 135mm f4.7 Xenar that will work and an old 90 mm Angulon. I don’t anticipate needing anything else and if I do I have it. Lenses breed too.
Kirk (Fry)

Kirk, handheld is a nice way to go!
The '90mm Angulon' is a good lens however my experience using it for handheld is that it has the disadvantage(/advantage?) of unsharp corners unless stopped down to f16 or even f22. This could lead to long exposure times not really recommended for handheld. It could ofcourse be used in combination with a flash for near to medium distance.

I use a Technika III (model5) which is the latest version before Technika IV. I use the inbuilt rangefinder and a Universalfinder for framing the object.
I would also recommend a camera with a back that accepts a Rollfilm-holder (e.g. 6x12) since there are 120-chromefilms that can be pushed up to e.g. 800ASA.
I do not have the Linhof Anatomical grip, but instead use a normal flashgrip (L-shaped) attached to the tripod mount which also makes it possible to mount a flash too.

[Don Wallace]

Your application says that you are going to be focused at infinity so the rangefinder doesn't matter. The Fotoman or a Crown (focused at infinity) would be the best choice. I have never used a Fotoman but the Crown is quite light, very easy to hold (and even invented before the word "ergonomics"), and quite inexpensive.

If you later want to use the Crown cammed, you can do so. It works best with the lenses for which it was cammed and the focus was never THAT accurate.

[j.e.simmons]

I use my Crown without a working rangefinder. I've found that with the somewhat wide lens (135mm) and a little practice, I can set the focus scale on the bed and zone focus. Of course, I'm using it for newspaper style shooting with little, if any, enlargement. Focus will depend to a degree on how you plan to print.

With regard to the Super Speed Graphic, the Super part was the lens/shutter combination that came with it. The shutter had a 1/1000th speed, but it had lots of nylon parts inside. Many of those shutters are showing the signs of age and don't work so well. The other thing the camera had was a rotating back. I'm not sure the rotating back is needed for hand held - I think it's easier to just turn the entire camera.

That said, I think the Super Speeds come at a premium price for features that you don't need, so if I were you, I'd avoid them.

As for the top rangefinders, they require a cam for focus. As you already have lenses, finding the cams for your lenses may be difficult.

All of that said, if you're going to look at a Graphic, I'd suggest a Pacemaker Crown with the Kalart rangefinder. Set up the rangefinder for the lens you plan to use and go at it.
juan

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Looks like lightweight hand-held 4x5" cameras are on demand those days.
You can have a look at this prototype designed & made in Switzerland by Didier Chatellard.
(sorry, the text is in French but the images speak for themselves).

http://www.galerie-photo.com/obscura-camera-didier-chatellard.html

[David A. Goldfarb]

A Crown with a Kalart rangefinder is a perfectly reasonable solution in your price range. Set the Kalart for the 135mm and zone focus the 90mm.

I shoot handheld with my Tech V, but a Technika with cammed lenses is outside the budget stated in the original post.

[Bill_1856]

Under normal conditions the Crown/Speed Graphic is by far the best choice for hand-holding. However, in this instance photographing from a moving platform you're gonna get wind effects from the bellows. Graflex made a WW2 model called the Combat Graphic which doesn't have a bellows, and would be a good choice. Linhof also makes an Aero-Technika, but the prices on these is out the roof.

[Richard Kelham]

OK, if you're talking about taking pix purely from a moving platform then something like the Fotoman, a Silvestri, or those experimental models Emmanuel showed us, would be the best bet as they are wind-proof in a way that Graphics are not. But they would be less versatile for other jobs – this is probably not a problem if you are "breeding" cameras in your cupboard:)


Richard

[Lee Hamiel]

Google translation of earlier post:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.galerie-photo.com%2Fobscura-camera-didier-chatellard.html&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Google translation

... manually swap 'room' for 'camera' and the text will look less funny ;-)

[David A. Goldfarb]

Bellows is a potential issue, but near infinity with a 135 or 90mm lens, there isn't much bellows out there, and it's partly shielded by the camera body.

[Kevin Crisp]

You could get a crown without lens and add a modern multicoated 135 for your budget. Barely. It is a nice combination. It takes some careful setting up to get the current short release arm on a copal to trigger with the body release on the camera but it can be done. Then you would have (almost) a 1/500th for a top speed; I doubt the old compur on your period lens will go nearly that fast. And a lens sharp edge to edge if stopped down even slightly. The wire hoop finder is underrated -- it adjusts automatically for each focal length, you can see what you are framing better than anything else you look through and you won't see fine details of the scene if you are looking through the little top mounted viewfinder. If there is a "moment" that matters in your composition finding it with the look-through finders is really difficult. Add a graphmatic for convenience and you are all set. I prefer the Kalart rangefinder for reasons recently discussed elsewhere.

[Chris Pandino]

I'd definitely recommend a Crown Graphic for this. It is light, well balanced for handheld shooting, has available RF's and is easily within your budget. It is much better balanced than a Speed or Super Speed in my opinion. I've never tried the Technikas.

I recently sold my Top RF Crown to Petronio (who had his way with it before reselling) and it had a very accurate RF. I find the Kalart RFs very difficult to use in comparison.

Since you have the lenses already, you should easily be able to pick one up in mint condition and find a focusing cam to match your Xenar and have more than a few bucks left over...

[Ted Harris]

My vote goes to the Fotoman 45PS. I have one here and have now been using it for the past 2 months shopoting it almost exclusively as a handheld point and shoot using a 75mm lens and a 135 mm lens. I have been testing the camera for a review for View Camera .. the article is in the issue that should be arriving in the next few days. It is a solidly built camera and not the least bit fiddly once you have the cone and lens mounted. If you want to shoot with more than one lens in the field then this may not be the camera as the bulk of the cones is a little much to stuff in a pocket (but lightweight).

I think this is a much better solution than a Graphic ... especially for someone that already has a collection of LF cameras. BTW, I am not unbiased here ... I don't like Graphics, at least not in comparison to modern equipment. Just too many potential problems given their age. I say that from the perspective of someone whol learned photography with a Speed.

[Michael Daily]

I would go for a Busch Pressman model D, 135 f3.8 Xenar (Linhof) and a Grafmatic (6 shot) filmholder. It is smaller than the Graphics or Technicas, all metal, has Kalart Vue-Focus top rangefinder and usuall can be had for $250 or so. Unfortunately my Xenar 3.8 shutter died and while a copal 1 will work nicely, I haven't replaced the dead one. I used that combination for years and have shot from small boats, cars, and trains with it. The usual problems ensued: blur from movement, shake from vehicle movement, etc.
Michael

[jnantz]

my suggestion is a speed graphic ( or crown )
i documented boston's fort point channel seawall ( habs )
with a speed graphic on a (drifting) boat, and it worked fine.
you might consider a mono-pod, handheld 4x5 is ez as pie,
but after a while it gets kind of (old) ...

[George Kara]

I have a fotoman 612 and think it is great. Re: the 4x5 ps, can it use quickloads?

[Bill_1856]

My vote goes to the Fotoman 45PS. I think this is a much better solution than a Graphic ... especially for someone that already has a collection of LF cameras. BTW, I am not unbiased here ... I don't like Graphics, at least not in comparison to modern equipment. Just too many potential problems given their age. I say that from the perspective of someone whol learned photography with a Speed.
Ted, does this mean that I shouldn't bring my 4x5 Crown to the workshop? I have been apprehensive about it because there is essentially no lens tilting facility (and darn little rise/fall/shift). But the Fotoman doesn't have any, either. I don't know how important tilting is in leaf-peeping landscape.

[Kevin Crisp]

Bill: (1) Lower the bed until it clicks (2) raise the lens on the front standard. (3) now you can tilt the lens where you want it by loosening the two wheels at the bottom of the front standard. People mistakenly think the CG just has upward tilt, not forward tilt. This way, the upward tilt becomes an adjustment for how much forward tilt you want. You can do a lot with a CG.

[Bill_1856]

Bill: (1) Lower the bed until it clicks (2) raise the lens on the front standard. (3) now you can tilt the lens where you want it by loosening the two wheels at the bottom of the front standard. People mistakenly think the CG just has upward tilt, not forward tilt. This way, the upward tilt becomes an adjustment for how much forward tilt you want. You can do a lot with a CG.

Thanks, Kevin. I know that, but it's a major PITA to do for horizontal format, and doesn't work at all for vertical format. I've always used my Crown like a big Leica, and have no experience using it in leaf-peeping mode. That's one reason I'm taking the workshop --to see just how important the tilting business is.
(PS, you forgot to mention moving the front standard back on the track so it can be focussed before tilting.)

[Ernest Purdum]

For a dissenting vote, I think the best hand-held 4X5 is a Graflex (or similar) SLR.

[Kevin Crisp]

I apologize if I underestimated your knowledge of the camera, but the statement "there is essentially no lens tilting facility" led me there. And I will assume you know how to tilt in the horizontal orientation as well.

[Wayne Crider]

The thing about Crowns is that you can basically customize them without much care for their original condition unless their mint. In fact, a well used one at a cheaper price sometimes makes for a more interesting experience. Strip them down, sand and stain or paint and you've got a real original. Make sure the bellows is good tho or you'll spend as much as another camera. Now the bad thing about them is they will breed, and before you know it you'll have two or three. I've two working, 1 to be put back together and a Speed in parts as well. Thought about buying another Crown and mating them side to side for a panoramic camera; Maybe someday. I've also owned a Super and wish I had it back. Not the best looking camera but the rotating back was sure nice. In comparsion I'm not a fan per se' of a Crown on it's side handheld or mounted, but it works. The body is a little too thin for my hands and the bellows is pretty close, which is why I went and bought a thicker bodied Speed to fool around with. One thing tho to watch out for with Crowns is the sportsfinder which doesn't really capture the accurate view of the neg, so frame a little wide and btw, forget the side mounted rangefinder. Ditch the weight, and they are only good for one lens anyways. Also get another GG.

[Ted Harris]

Bill, bring it along as long as it doesn't add too much weight. I will have a Toyo AII and a Zone VI there as well and if yoru CG proves to be too much of a PITA then just use the Toyo or the Zone VI or one of the other 4x5's that will be around. I can think of one location off the top of my head where amplemovements will be useful ... that is a nice waterfall that is a steep cut in the rock .. called The Little Flume in Dixville Notch. But for sure bring it and try it .... you can always try soething else. That is one of the reasons we always bring lots of our gear to workshops, for others to use not for us to shoot. We will have 2 or 3 4x5's, a 5x7, 1 or 2 7x17's and likely an 8x10 .... also some MF equipment. So lots of places to put your holders.

[Ed Richards]

Ted:

I am looking for a camera to use a really wide lens on - probably a 55. Have you tried a fotoman with a lens like this? From what you say about the fotoman, it might be perfect - there is not enough image circle to use much in the way of movements, and the fotoman would always be perfectly aligned, which can be a pain with an ultra wide. Do you have much sense of what you would give up using an ultra wide on a fotoman rather that a standard camera?

[Ted Harris]

Ed, should work fineif you can live with out the minimal movements. With the 55 or 58mm cone it is a very compact package and the groundglass arrangement is neat if you want to use it although I can't imagine that you wouldn't be close to spot on most of th time with zone focus at that focal length.

I don't recall where you are located but if you are anywhere in my neighborhood I willhave the camera for another few weeks if you hae a lens to mount .. I hace a cone for the 58mm SA.

[Kirk Fry]

Everyone,

Awesome. So let me summarize. No one is pushing Technika’s for both cost and weight and I don’t know. III’s can be had fairly cheap. Linhofs are very impressive hardware. Crowns vs Speeds, the vote goes to the Crowns due to weight and simplicity and price although Speeds are costing less these days probably because you guys are dissing them all the time. I don’t need to worry about the range finder, I won’t need one because I will be shooting at infinity mostly, but I will need the infinity stops with the folding tag gizmo’s. If I do worry about the rangefinder, either top or side mounted seem to be ok with a slight edge to the side mounted ones (which of course come on the older models I might add). The wire framing gizmo is useful.

Not much enthusiasm for the Super Graphic or Toyo variants. What is wrong with them, they are lighter, have modern universal backs, are all metal with rotating backs? True, a decent one costs 2-3 X what a Crown would cost, but sometimes you get what you pay for. Is this the case here? The “Speed” variant was a marketing gimmick and the shutters are all mushy nylon and useless by now. The infinity stops are weird and hard to find and the lens boards weird.

Alternative choices: Busch Pressman, Fotoman (less than $500 ?????), and a French/Swiss (Didier Chatellard.) prototype handheld, a Combat Graphic, Gaoersi, Gowland Aerials, Silvestri and several other choices likely to be over the price limit.

So I would rather spend $300 than $600, but I put $500 in there as a limit so as not to price out the Super Graphics and older Technika’s. So the Crown looks like the winner, I am favoring the top mounted rangefinder as they are newer. But the Super still has a chance if someone can convince me it represent value for the money. I will also look at the Fotoman again. The movements attract me to the Fotoman.  .

Thanks everyone.

Kirk (Fry)

[Jim Jones]

Busch made several models with a variety of features. Sometimes I prefer my old Busch Pressman to the Graphics: rotating back, front movement, and metal construction. Unlike the Pacemaker series of Graphics, it has no infinity stops or sports finder. I usually use the Graphics, though. They can be modified to have conventional swings and tilts. The often maligned Meyer rangefinder on the Graphics can be adjusted more easily in the field than the Kalart: adjustments are external.

[Ed Richards]

> No one is pushing Technika’s for both cost and weight and I don’t know.

The original post set a price point that excluded Technikas. I use a Technika IV handheld with cammed 90 and 150 lenses. It is terrific. The weight is well balanced and helps steady the camera. My only problem with the Technika is that wide lenses, starting with the 90, are far enough into the box that you hit the struts supporting the bed when you try to do movements.

Ted - I am in Baton Rouge. I do not think that is close to anywhere.:-)

[Ted Harris]

Ed, Baton Rouge is no further from anywhere than I am on top of my mountai n in New Hampshire.

Kirk, "The movements attract me to the Fotoman" th eFotoman has no movements, not the one that is available NOW.

Finally, there are also others to consider such as the MPP's (English) and the IIRC, Meridian (an American Technika knockoff from the 60's). Since you talked about shooting mostly at infinity consider that it is a lot easier to use a helical focusing mount to set your zone focus with a wide lens than it is to do any other quick focusing. If you aren't going to use the rangefinder then you can consider any folding 4x5.

[Bill_1856]

If you really don't need lens movements, then I see no advantage in using 4x5 compared with a good 6x7 or 6x9 press type camera like the Graflex XL or Mamiya Press -- with the faster lenses you can easily make up for the loss of negative area by using slower film, and there's no bellows to flutter. And those cameras are remarkably cheap right now.

[Ted Harris]

I agree with Bill on the Mamiya Press but not on the XL. The XL system is marvelous, when it works, and as time passes that gets to be less and less frequently. One of the major weak points of the system is the rubber/plastic focusing mount ring and the nipples thereon. One breaks and you cannot focus. It is my understanding that these are nearly impossible to find these days and can't be fabricated by any of our normal whizkids. I hope someone tells me I am wrong but that was what I thought was the case when I gave up on the system nearly a decade ago.

[Kevin Crisp]

My thought when I first read this thread was that a Pentax 6X7 would be good for this. I assumed it would be outside the price range. Having just checked on what they are going for these days, especially without mirror lock up which isn't required for what you want to do, I think you could get one with at least one lens in your price range. I have used one to shoot out of a helicopter and it worked well for that, I assume a boat would be no problem.

[Frank Petronio]

Well once we get into 6x9s the Fujica 690 (first version) might be in his price range and offer performance to spare. And they are 1000X more reliable (and sharper) than an old Mamiya or Graflex.

[GPS]

BEST HANHELD 4X5?


My thought when I first read this thread was that a Pentax 6X7 would be good for this.

Ehm....

[MJSfoto1956]

"The movements attract me to the Fotoman"
Perhaps you mean the movements attract you to the Gaoersi or the Silverstri or the Cambo Wide -- these are the only handhelds (as opposed to Technical cameras) that offer shift.

[Kirk Fry]

Thanks for the additional ideas. I was being sarcastic about movements on the Fotoman, my little happy face did not paste from word. As far as I can tell ratty Technika IV's and Tech III's can be had for less than $500. Remember Tech III's and Crowns are about the same age. So I didn't hear any votes for the Super Graphic??? Is there something fundamentally wrong with these Camera's????

Thanks again.

Kirk

[bartf]

I'll vote for the Super now that I've bought enough of them to last me for the remainder of my life ;)

<joke>

[j.e.simmons]

The Supers are fine - I just didn't see the need for spending the extra money for what you say you want to do. If a Super is in your budget, they are fine cameras.

And don't wholly give up on the Grafex 1000 shutter. I have one on a Crown and it still works just fine, so there are still good ones out there There are lots of warnings, though, to not use the 1/1000 speed, as that is where the real danger is supposed to lie. The reason for a lack of recommendations is that many are worn out and AFAIK there's only one person who can fix the things - Fred Lustig in Neveda.
juan

[Joseph O'Neil]

I've used speed graphics, and still own a crown and a super spped graphic, and i've used a few others. Above all - the Crown wins hands down for hand held use. Get a decent modern lens, you'll be very happy with it.

joe

[jnantz]

For a dissenting vote, I think the best hand-held 4X5 is a Graflex (or similar) SLR.

i rescind my earlier suggestion and concur wholeheartedly with this one ...
no "dance" required

[David A. Goldfarb]

I love my Press Graflex SLR, but it is unsuitable for carrier landings.

[al olson]

Frankly, there is nothing wrong with the Super Graphic. It is reasonably light and very well built. I bought one of the first ones around '58 and used it for three years doing jounralism photography to assist in my college expenses. My biggest regret was that in '62 I traded it in on a Nikon Nikkorex F.

The Super Graphic was introduced with a fastest shutter speed of 1/500. Later the Super Speed Graphic came out with 1/1000 as the highest shutter speed. The shutter of the Super Speed was a unique design that had a built in lens hood that you had to twist to cock the shutter. I understand that this design had a lot of problems and I would stay away from it.

The Super/Super Speed Graphics also had an electronic shutter that couples with a solenoid that mechanically trips the shutter. The solenoid is built into the camera so that it does not require a solenoid for each and every lens board like most of the Speed Graphics and Crown Graphic.

The odd thing about this design is that it requires two 22.5 volt batteries that are about the same shape and form as the 9 volts for electronic devices. The batteries are rare but can still be obtained at a battery specialty store. A more serious problem is that the batteries must be installed to keep the battery door from falling out. If the batteries have been removed for storage or because the user decided to use a cable release instead, many of the cameras available on the used market are without battery doors.

I liked the camera so well that when I found one in mint condition made by Toyo in the mid '70s [the Graflex business was sold to Toyo about five years before] that only differs from my earlier model by using metric screws, I bought it. I have since purchased 90 mm and 10" lenses with cams from ebay.

I do a lot of night photography and usually use my Linhof Technica IV. For studio work I use my Linhof Color rail camera. But the Super Graphic is great for hand held work, or in the field, as long as I do not need back movements. I added a flash unit tube on the right side, sans batteries and reflector, which works well as a stabilizing hand grip. The left side has a leather strap which is a little difficult to stabilize the camera.

At one time the Super Graphic was a popular camera for Army photographers. There was a period a few years ago when I watched a lot of the military cameras (often in olive drab) being sold on ebay along with the case and many other attachments. Many of them appeared to be hardly used. I have not been checking lately and perhaps most of them are gone, but whole kits were going for only a few hundred dollars. (sigh) I had paid much more for my camera.

I would certainly recommend the Super Graphic for your purposes. Back in my college years, perhaps 60 percent of my work involved sports photography: football, basketball, and hockey (in an unheated arena that was often 35 below zero). There is no question that it is rugged and reliable.

cheers,
al olson