Info on 4x10 camera and films, please

[John Hoang]

Hi all,

I am contemplating a panoramic camera, instead of going with 6x17, I am thinking about a Fotoman or a Shenhao 4x10. Since I am shooting 5x7, most of my lenses could be used, from wide to tele without problems. I would loose the convenience of using roll films but the 4x10 route is possibly less expensive, larger slides, movements (Shenhao 4x10)... I would really appreciate your help about the following info:

1. If I choose Fotoman 4x10, how easy to remove the lens from the Helical Focusing device to be used on my 5x7

2. Is it possible to just cut an 8x10 film in halves and they would fit the film holder. Or I have to use dedicated 4x10 films, in this case where to buy transparencies?

Many thanks.

[Donald Brewster]

Kerry Thalmann wrote a fairly comprehensive article on the 4x10 in a 2005 issue of View Camera. I believe Keith Canham regularly makes 4x10 holders. You can cut 8x10 transparency film down using a rototrimmer without too much difficulty.

[Bruce Watson]

Kerry Thalmann wrote a fairly comprehensive article on the 4x10 in a 2005 issue of View Camera.
An excellent article. Should tell you most of what you'll want to know.

Also, APUG has a panoramic camera forum (http://www.apug.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=186) that you can search and where you can ask questions.

[Ron Marshall]

There is an article on this site by Kerry about 4x10:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/4x10.html

[Oren Grad]

1. If I choose Fotoman 4x10, how easy to remove the lens from the Helical Focusing device to be used on my 5x7

It's not a good idea to be constantly mounting and unmounting view camera lenses - if they were intended to be used that way, they would have been designed with rugged, quick-action bayonet mounts like 35 or medium format lenses rather than the fussy, dainty screw threads they actually have. Also, setting up a calibrated helical mount involves not just screwing in the lens, but also tweaking against a visual check on the ground glass to make sure the mount is properly aligned for inifinity focus, and possibly having to keep track of shims needed to make it come out right. Doing that repeatedly will get really old really fast.


2. Is it possible to just cut an 8x10 film in halves and they would fit the film holder.

Yes, but you may find that you need two cuts rather than one. Because of the difference between nominal and actual sheet film dimensions and production tolerances for film and for holders you could find that splitting an 8x10 sheet in half gives you two sheets that are ever so slightly too wide for your 4x10 holders. Someone like Kerry Thalmann who's done a lot of this could give you a better idea of whether this is likely to be a problem in actual practice.

[CXC]

Anybody agree with me that 4x10 is too small and 8x20 is too big? Obviously somebody should make a 6x15. Inches, that is...

[Bruce Watson]

Anybody agree with me that 4x10 is too small and 8x20 is too big? Obviously somebody should make a 6x15. Inches, that is...
I like 4x10 because it is small. I'll be scanning the film (If I ever get there). I think bigger sizes would make for good contact printing though. Is that what you have in mind?

[Ron Marshall]

Anybody agree with me that 4x10 is too small and 8x20 is too big? Obviously somebody should make a 6x15. Inches, that is...

How about 7x17 or 8x12?

[Oren Grad]

There's been renewed attention to 5x12 recently; Keith Canham has built a few more cameras in this format, and Shen-Hao now offers a 5x12 model as well.

An eBay vendor from India, "lexim2k", has sold a few old 6x15 cameras.

So sheet film cameras with approximately the 1:2.5 aspect ratio have been built at least in 4x10, 5x12, 6x15, 7x17 and 8x20 formats, and at least four of those formats (all except 6x15) are readily available today. That's pretty amazing for such a specialized niche.

[CXC]

Yeah, it's funny how the various formats have ended up evolving. So many panoramics, yet no squares...

[Oren Grad]

Butch Welch built himself a multiformat view camera a few years back - for a while he had a web site documenting the project, and it was written up in View Camera, I think by Kerry Thalmann. One of the backs he built was 9x9, and he had S&S make some holders in that format. That's the only square sheet film format I can recall ever hearing about.

[Ron Marshall]

So sheet film cameras with approximately the 1:2.5 aspect ratio have been built at least in 4x10, 5x12, 6x15, 7x17 and 8x20 formats, and at least four of those formats (all except 6x15) are readily available today. That's pretty amazing for such a specialized niche.

With so many different 1:2.5 formats it seems like the search for the panoramic holy grail.

Thanks for the info Oren. I never realised the profusion of 1:2.5 formats.

Are there many 1:1.5 formats, such as 8x12?

[Oren Grad]

1:1.6 is more common than 1:1.5. The formats for which I can recall seeing cameras/holders are 2.25x3.25, 5x8, 6x10, 7x11 and 12x20. All of these except for the first are 1:1.6. But I've seen 5x8 only in plate holders, not sheet film holders.

[Ron Marshall]

Thanks Oren. I am amazed by the number of different formats that have been tried.

What are some of the other aspect ratios that have been used?

[Bruce Watson]

With so many different 1:2.5 formats it seems like the search for the panoramic holy grail.

Thanks for the info Oren. I never realised the profusion of 1:2.5 formats.

Are there many 1:1.5 formats, such as 8x12?
The only 1:1.5 ratio format I know of is 35mm at 24x36mm. Even when I was using it I thought it was a weird size ;-)

I suspect the 1:1.6 formats are approximations of the golden ratio which is 1:1.618. I'm not surprised then that there are more 1:1.6 sizes than there are 1:1.5.

[Oren Grad]

The other aspect ratios I can think of that are represented in multiple sizes are the familiar 4:5 (4x5, 8x10, 16x20), 3:4 (3.25x4.25, 6.5x8.5, European 9x12cm, 18x24cm; also, Ole Tjugen has also mentioned owning a 12x16" [European 30x40cm?] camera) and 5:6 (10x12, 20x24).

I guess you could also think of 5x7/13x18cm and 14x20 as a family, but the only person I know of working in 14x20 is Kenro Izu with his custom Deardorff. Perhaps the European 6.5x9 cm belongs in this group too.

Then there are the singletons like 11x14 and 14x17 - or I may simply be unaware of other older formats in those proportions.

Bruce, the 1:1.5 ratio is also widely represented in the 6x9cm roll film format, which is the counterpart of 2.25x3.25 sheet film.

[Bruce Watson]

Bruce, the 1:1.5 ratio is also widely represented in the 6x9cm roll film format, which is the counterpart of 2.25x3.25 sheet film.
Right you are. Trying to do too much at a time - couldn't fit it into short term memory ;-)

[Oren Grad]

Right you are. Trying to do too much at a time - couldn't fit it into short term memory ;-)

Hey, my problem is that the trivia, like film formats, is perversely persistent, and crowds out the important stuff... ;)

[Ron Marshall]

Thanks again Oren.

If I ever get the money I think I would like to shoot 12x20. I like the 1:1.6 ratio and that would be a very pleasant size for contact prints.

[Jay Wolfe]

For consideration, a slightly contrarian view (and I'm a 4x10 shooter): If you use 4x10 and do your own darkroom work, you'll be limited to contact prints unless you have an 8x10 enlarger. If you chose 6x12, you could use a roll film back, and enlarger the negs in a 4x5 enlarger. One of the questions I've gotten a lot is, "Can you make that print any bigger?" Since I don't have an 8x10 enlarger, the answer is, "No."

[Paul Droluk]

Hi John,

in answer to your questions regarding our Fotoman 410PS camera...

The lens can easily be mounted and dismounted... exactly the same way you would from a standard lens board. Once Calibrated, all of the components of the Cone Assembly remain together as a single unit, so nothing will get lost. Just re-mount the lens when you're done with it elsewhere and you're back in business... no need to re-calibrate. Do exercise the same caution you would when mounting and dismounting the lens from a lensboard... as Oren pointed out the threads are finely pitched and can easily be damaged if misaligned.

4x10 film is more problematic. Currently there are is only 1 supplier for pre-cut (J&C), and that's for B&W only. To solve this problem, we are currently working on a dedicated 8x10 to 4x10 rotary film cutter. Just like a paper cutter, but dedicated to the task. This will allow the use of all emulsions avaialable in 8x10 size.

Lastly, there will be a shift adapter available for our 410PS camera around December 1st, allowing both rise and fall. Tilt on panoramic formats is not as valuable as it is on more square formats, due to the reduced amount of fore/background. Conequently rise and fall will most usually address the needs for ample DOF and perspective control (in the most common horizontal orientation).

[Brian Vuillemenot]

It is not too hard to adapt a paper cutter to cut 8X10 film in half in a dark room or tent. You just need to make some guides out of mat board that the sheet of film and cutter fit into so that you know they are lined up just right. I cut Velvia in this way to use in my 4X10 camera, and only need to make a single lengthwise cut. If you are really sold on the idea of shooting 4X10, and have access to an 8X10 camera, you might want to consider cutting out half of a darkslide and using it to shoot two 4X10s on a single sheet of 8X10 film.

[John Hoang]

Thank you all, gentlemen, for your great help. I will take time to read the suggested readings before making decision, now including 8x10 with half-darkslide...

Also thanks to those who make this thread become so interesting to read. -John

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

John,

As others have mentioned, I wrote a two part article on the 4x10 format for View Camera that was published in the Sep/Oct and Nov/Dec 2005 isues of View Camera. Part 1 of the article covered all of the 4x10 cameras that were available at that time, as well as film holder options. Part 2 of the article covered lenses and film choices for 4x10. If you're serious about giving the 4x10 format a try, you may want to locate the issues in question. They treat the subject with a lot more depth than anything I've written online.

Since the articles were published, two more 4x10 cameras, the Fotoman and Shen-Hao, have appeared on the market. I hope to write a review of the Shen-Hao as soon as I can get my hands on a sample.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

For consideration, a slightly contrarian view (and I'm a 4x10 shooter): If you use 4x10 and do your own darkroom work, you'll be limited to contact prints unless you have an 8x10 enlarger.

Depends on your printing method. If you print digitally, either color or black and white, the 4x10 format lends itself very well to an affordable desktop scanner/printer combination. Epson makes some very reasonably priced desktop scanners that can scan 4x10 negatives/transparencies (no stitching required). Combined with an affordable 13" wide-carriage desktop printer and you can make very nice 12x30 prints (or digitally enlarged negatives for contact printing) from your 4x10 originals.

Kerry

[John Hoang]

Thanks, Kerry. I will sure read the articles. As far as scanning and printing, I have been doing exactly what you have said for some cropped images on my 5x7 films. I have just read your article about 4x0 Format and Film Holders on The Large Format Home Page. It contains a lot of information that very helpful to me. Again, thanks for that.