setups for barrel lenses

[Mick Noordewier]

A lot of you display great interest in lenses in barrel mounts. What are the most reasonable setups for using these? Does everyone have an old speed graphic hanging around, or are there other options for using a shutterless lens?

[Dan Fromm]

Um, Mick, I have a Pacemaker Speed and I use barrel lenses on it. But I cheat. 2x3 Speed, most of my lenses in barrel are long for the format. I hang the majority of my lenses in barrel in front of a Copal 1; that shutter is big enough that vignetting isn't a problem.

The big gains from front-mounting lenses on a Pacemaker Speed Graphic are timed shutter speeds below 1/30 -- the Pacemaker Speed's focal plane shutter's slowest timed speed is 1/30, earlier Speeds go down to a nominal 1/10 -- and the ability to use electronic flash. Speed Graphics' focal plane shutters won't synchronize with electronic flash at any speed.

Front-mounting will work on any camera, but there's a risk of vignetting and a likely reduction in movements.

[Mick Noordewier]

Dan,
That's exactly the type of information I was looking for. How do you mount a barrel lens in front of a shutter? Do you have a specially-made lensboard? Or is it possible to attach it to the shutter in some fashion?
-mick

[Capocheny]

Mick,

I've also had a couple of barrel lenses but I decided to have them mounted in Copal shutters. For me... it was just more convenient than counting in seconds as a hat/cover is placed over the lens. But, that's just moi! :)

I'm intending on having a Wollensack 210 WA Raptar mounted in a Copal but have not decided whether to have it front-mounted or not. I won't be attempting to do this myself... the lens will go to Tim at www.lensN2Shutter.com, who did a beautiful job of mounting a 19" RDA into a Copal 3.

It might be worthwhile to contact Tim and speak with him about it. His contact info is on the website.

Cheers

[Dan Fromm]

Mick, I've paid the late Steve Grimes and his successors (www.skgrimes.com) to make adapters for hanging lenses in front of a shutter. Nearly all are cup-shaped; female threads at the front to accept the lens, male threads at the rear to go into the shutter.

They've also made adapters threaded male at the front to screw into the lens' filter threads, female at the rear to accept a retaining ring for attaching lenses to a board. I use this type of adapter to hold two very different aerial camera lenses in barrel on a board; the lenses' barrels are, fortunately, threaded internally at the rear.

It has only once made sense to use this type of adapter for front-mounting; the adapter is M52x0.75 at the front, M39x0.75 at the rear, and holds a reversed 55/2.8 MicroNikkor AIS in front of a #1.

Please understand that these adapters aren't inexpensive and are now cost more than they did a couple of years ago. The most I've paid so far was around $135 for one threaded, IIRC, M80x1 at the front. An adapter for front-mounting can easily cost more than the lens its made for.

To get a better idea of what can be done, visit www.skgrimes.com and see what they have to say about front-mounting. Or visit Tim Sharkey's site, as HDC has advised. I've dealt with Sharkey only once, he bought a lens I'd listed on eBay, very much dislike his lens listings on eBay. His claims about coverage seem greatly exagerated. Many people, though, have reported here that he's a capable machinist, makes good threaded bushings. The adapters you want are in that class.

Ole Tjugen, who hasn't chimed in yet, uses iris type universal lens clamps. Part of their charm is that one clamp will hold quite a wide range of lenses. Threaded adapters tend to be pretty lens-specific.

Good luck, have fun,

Dan

[Ole Tjugen]

Ole Tjugen, who hasn't chimed in yet, uses iris type universal lens clamps. Part of their charm is that one clamp will hold quite a wide range of lenses. Threaded adapters tend to be pretty lens-specific.

So I do. All my big old plate cameras now sport iris holders, which saves a lot of camera- and lens-specific lens boards. Since I only have one lens board for each of these old cameras (13x18, 18x24, 24x30 and 30x40 - all in cm), it makes it a lot easier to change lenses. However I've noted some ridiculous prices for these on ebay lately (well above $300), the most expensive one of mine cost about $200 - including the camera.

I also happened to have a very small iris holder which was just small enough to fit on a Speed Graphic lens board I happened to have. So I bought a pre-anniversary Speed to put it on. Works just great - camera was cheap (no lens), bellows were good (recently replaced), shutter works.

[j.e.simmons]

I use barrel lenses on my 8x10 without a shutter at all. I simply remove and replace the lens cap. It turned out to be much easier to do than I had imagined. My film is 100 speed or slower and I stop down usually to f/22 or smaller. That usually requires a shutter speed of 1/2 second or more, which I time by listening to the tick of a metronome.
juan

[Frank Petronio]

Besides the Speeds, a lot of people use the Packard shutters -- which are still being made by the way -- on larger view cameras. I don't think they have anything that will fit a Graphic or Technika sized opening but people with Deardorffs and such use them all the time.

I've been on a Sinar jag lately and part of the attraction is waiting for a nice Sinar mechanical shutter to show up... I am refering to the large Copal shutter that predates the electronic ExpoLux system and all that. It requires using a special Sinar DB for the lenses or having someone like SK Grimes build a mount so the rear element clears the shutter blades.

A couple of advantages include the fact that you can utilize the round aperture of the older lenses (none of this hexagonal aperture opening crap) and that an awful lot of top quality modern lenses go for cheap on eBay because they are in the DB mounts.

[Frank Petronio]

j.e. I heard that some old timers even did a crude burn and dodge with their longer exposures when using the lenscap method.... do a long upward slide of the cap to lessen the exposure in the sky, etc.

Or are the bullshit meters going off? ;)

[william linne]

There are several, older front of lens shutters that are quite handy. I have Luc shutters in about 5 different sizes and they clamp down on the front of the lens and usually give you a "t" setting and approx 1/30th. Quite handy with neutral density filters outside and indispensable inside.

[Pete Watkins]

Frank, should'nt you be doing the packing. I can't believe that you're leaving you wife to pack and look after the kids! The weather's great over here, stop winding people up and get to the airport. Have a good trip!
Pete.

[wfwhitaker]

A point Dan made deserves reiterating. Mounting a lens in front of a shutter may result in vignetting, especially with wide-angle lenses. So that 210mm barrel lens which was advertised to cover 8x10 may not do that if there's a shutter in the way. Something to consider before you pour money into a machined adapter.

[JeffBishop]

I use the barrel lenses on the Speed Graphic. Works great, and opens up a whole new world of lenses for me.

[Dan Fromm]

There are several, older front of lens shutters that are quite handy. I have Luc shutters in about 5 different sizes and they clamp down on the front of the lens and usually give you a "t" setting and approx 1/30th. Quite handy with neutral density filters outside and indispensable inside.There are also a variety of "roller blind" shutter, Thornton Pickard, for example. Some are quite large. Some go behind the lens, others, like the Luc, in front. But hard to find and, like the Luc and Packard, offer a very limited range of speeds.

[Jim Jones]

j.e. I heard that some old timers even did a crude burn and dodge with their longer exposures when using the lenscap method.... do a long upward slide of the cap to lessen the exposure in the sky, etc.

Or are the bullshit meters going off? ;)

No BS. I've occasionally done it. Doing this further in front of the lens with a large hunk of black mat board might be better. Trying it closer to the lens with the dark slide can cause loss of sharpness with some lenses. The aperture setting also makes a difference. Try it while looking at the image on the GG before doing it on film.

[Jim Galli]

I have an old workhorse Kodak 2D 8X10 with the Packard shutter mounted inside the camera independent of the lensboards. 7" Packard with a 4" aperture just squeezes in front of the first bellows pleat. I use it for just about everything. It's as happy with a Hemagis Eidoscop @ f4.5 (http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31748) as it is with a Dagor at f64. At this point I think at least 80% of the pics at my web pages (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com) are done with that old camera and of course a plethora of funny old lenses. With the Packard you learn to time by "ear". At first I always took a Nikon FM along in my pocket so I could listen to 1/4 sec. 2 or 3 times before I did the exposures. I can get consistent 1/30, 1/15, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 1+++ which is about 98% of anything I need to do in LF. The challenge is getting fast enough speeds in daylight with pictorial lenses at their wider apertures. I need to fabricate a set of neutral density filters that would hang behind the Packard. But even that challenge is only a small percentage of what I do, and so far I've gotten nice results by simply over-exposing a known amount and pulling development.

[Struan Gray]

I've been on a Sinar jag lately and part of the attraction is waiting for a nice Sinar mechanical shutter to show up... I am refering to the large Copal shutter that predates the electronic ExpoLux system and all that. It requires using a special Sinar DB for the lenses or having someone like SK Grimes build a mount so the rear element clears the shutter blades.

Those custom boards can add up, and leave heavy lenses cantilevered way out in front of the standard. For lenses that project too far to the rear I just mount the shutter on an intermediate standard and simply snug it up to the rear of the lens. A spare/bag bellows seals the space between the lensboard and the shutter. A bit of a pain if you're using lots of movements, but simple and cheap.

[medform-norm]

There are also a variety of "roller blind" shutter, Thornton Pickard, for example. Some are quite large. Some go behind the lens, others, like the Luc, in front. But hard to find and, like the Luc and Packard, offer a very limited range of speeds.

Thornton Pickard shutters can indeed be quite large. We own a 4x5 and an 8x10 version, both in various stages of resuccitation (spelling?). They have a lot of speeds, up to 1/1000th but not much range on the slower ones. Can be used behind the lens or at the back of the camera. The 8x10 has a deardorff style gg glass plus springs for film holders. Of course, they do limit the use of wide angles, since they add at least an inch to the length of the camera set up.
With the Luc shutter you can extend a range of speeds if you connect a Prontor timing mechanism to the cable release socket, which will add slow times to your built-in 1/30th. However, these Prontor timers tend to be expensive.

[squiress]

I just ordered an Alphax #3 shutter from Tim at www.lensn2shutter.com. He offered to mount my 210mm WF Wollensak and supply a newly engraved aperture ring for what I considered a reasonable cost. Felt that a local camera guy could take care of the shimming issue, which is a real concern when mounting two halves of a barrel lens into a shutter, and since I got the lens fairly inexpensively, decided to simply buy the shutter and mount it to the lens here. Looking forward to seeing it soon and getting it put together.

I found Tim very knowledgable about these vintage shutters and very pleasant to deal with through emails.

Stew

[squiress]

I just wanted to follow up on the Alphax 3 shutter that I recieved from Tim at Lensn2shutter.com. Every fit exactly as described. The shutter I discovered did not come with a retaining ring. This could have been a problem or added cost, but the retaining ring from the 210 WF Raptor barrel lens body fit the Alphax shutter so no problem there. The other issue was the hole for the shutter which I believe to be a #2 at 52mm or so. Basically cut a 2" hole in a Toyo lens board and shimmed the shutter for a very nice fit. Then attached the Toyo board to my Wehman Toyo adaptor board and onto the camera. As advertised the 210mm WF Raptor covers the entire 8x10 ground glass with fairly equal brightness at wide open aperture (f/6.4). The aperture ring markings need to be adjusted, but that will be a simple process.

All and all this was a pretty good way to get a roughly 35mm equivalent lens for my 8x10. With the 300 Fuji and the 480 Ronar I'm in good shape with this camera at 8x10.

Stew