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View Full Version : Pyrocat-HD, 400Tmax, Jobo



Bruce Watson
10-Sep-2006, 09:03
I'd like to hear from anyone who is shooting 5x4 400Tmax, processing on Jobo using a 3010 drum, developing with Pryocat-HD.

How flexible is this combination? How well does it do N- and N+ development?

Amund BLix Aaeng
10-Sep-2006, 09:09
Here you can find everything you need to know: http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=26

Bruce Watson
11-Sep-2006, 06:04
Here you can find everything you need to know: http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=26

I've read it. Sadly, it doesn't tell me everything I need to know, otherwise I wouldn't be starting threads like this.

What I'm interested in is whether anyone is actually using this combination, and if they are, what kind of results they are getting.

For example, I've read that this combination has some problems with tonality with bright sunlit scenes with large SBR. I routinely work with sunlight, so this is interesting to me. Anyone want to comment?

John Powers
11-Sep-2006, 06:46
Bruce,

If you are willing to consider alternatives, I have been very pleased with Rollo Pyro which I believe is variation of PMK for Jobos, not sure there. I'm doing 8x10 and 7x17 T Max 400 in a CPP 2 Jobo. The 8x10 is developed in an Expert drum. I'm shooting pictures where the bright sunlight vs. shadows goes beyond a five stop range, such as dappled light coming through tree tops in wooded rocky shadow areas and bright sunlight on waterfalls next to shaded banks. Best results so far have come from over exposing one or two stops and underdeveloping by 10-20 percent.

Hope this is helpful.


John

sanking
11-Sep-2006, 07:07
I've read it. Sadly, it doesn't tell me everything I need to know, otherwise I wouldn't be starting threads like this.

What I'm interested in is whether anyone is actually using this combination, and if they are, what kind of results they are getting.

For example, I've read that this combination has some problems with tonality with bright sunlit scenes with large SBR. I routinely work with sunlight, so this is interesting to me. Anyone want to comment?

TMAX-400 film with Pyrocat-HD has been my main film/developer combination for many years and I have not had any problems at all with tonalities in bright sunlight scenes with high SBRs. TMAX-400 has a very long straight line curve and if you expose it correctly and develop for the right amount of time you should get a full range of tonalities with excellent separation in both the shadows and in the highlights. This film does not have as much latitude in develoment as do TXP, HP5+ or the JandC 400 film but precision is possible even with tray development, assuming one takes reasonable precautions to control temperature during development.

In my experience it is actually much more difficult to control highlight tonalities in the type of conditions you describe with TRI-X 320, which has a very long, up-flaring curve, than with TMAX-400. The use of a staining developer like offers the potential for highlight compensation with either film.

Most problems with TMAX-400 are due to over-develoment. Unlike TXP, HP5+ and JandC 400, which have a maximum potential CI of about .85-95, over-devlopment of TMAX-400 can result in approximate CI values of 1.2 and higher, which are virtually impossible to print with silver papers.

In any event

Sandy King

Bruce Watson
11-Sep-2006, 07:10
I'm shooting pictures where the bright sunlight vs. shadows goes beyond a five stop range, such as dappled light coming through tree tops in wooded rocky shadow areas and bright sunlight on waterfalls next to shaded banks. Best results so far have come from over exposing one or two stops and underdeveloping by 10-20 percent.

Interesting - this is the kind of subject I was thinking of. How do you find the tonality? Can you compare to the tonality you get from "conventional" films?

sanking
11-Sep-2006, 07:24
Interesting - this is the kind of subject I was thinking of. How do you find the tonality? Can you compare to the tonality you get from "conventional" films?

You appear to understand BTZS since you use the SBR terminology. Why not just run your own tests with TMY and the developer of choice? Regardless of what developer you use, tonal values in high SBR scenes are normally controlled by some degree of over-exposure and under-development. Choice of developer is a lot less important in these kind of situations than just getting exposure and development right.

Sandy King

John Powers
11-Sep-2006, 07:57
Interesting - this is the kind of subject I was thinking of. How do you find the tonality? Can you compare to the tonality you get from "conventional" films?

Bruce,

I am learning and experimenting. T Max 400 has been my primary film developed in Rollo Pyro for about three years, 6x7cm, then 4x5, 8x10 and in the last three months 7x17. The 7x17 camera came with some Ilford HP5+ that I have tried recently on the waterfall and shadow pictures. The tonal range there has also been wonderful. This of course is all subjective. What may be acceptable to me today, may not be for you. Experimentation is the only way you will know. I can only suggest.

The tonal limitation for me has been the printing paper rather than film or film developer. I’ve been using Kentmere VCFB since Kodak Polymax VCFB became unavailable. Michael Smith printed one of my T Max negatives on AZO at the APUG Conference. That negative was of dark rusty metal straps hanging in an abandoned greenhouse that had ice, snow and sun on the roof. Lots of sun, more than five stop spread. Not surprisingly AZO had a longer tonal range than Kentmere VCFB with a single filter. Platinum would be the same. However when I started split grade printing per Les McLean’s method (see his book “Creative Black & White Photography”) I got very acceptable results on the Kentmere. Again all is subjective.

For more of the shadow and dappled light history see http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28835&highlight=rocks+roots
Here I got into some long exposures with the HP5+ up to 16 minutes including reciprocity and 3-6 minutes with T Max 400. I also purchased a Gossen Luna Pro SBC to obtain better low light readings than my Sekonic 508.

Again, hope this helps.

John

PS: If you try Rollo Pyro, I do not use the second tanning cycle after the fixer.

Bruce Watson
11-Sep-2006, 08:59
TMAX-400 film with Pyrocat-HD has been my main film/developer combination for many years and I have not had any problems at all with tonalities in bright sunlight scenes with high SBRs...
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Most problems with TMAX-400 are due to over-develoment. Unlike TXP, HP5+ and JandC 400, which have a maximum potential CI of about .85-95, over-devlopment of TMAX-400 can result in approximate CI values of 1.2 and higher, which are virtually impossible to print with silver papers.

Thanks for posting. I was hoping you would! Based on what you and others have said, I'm beginning to like this idea more and more.

I'm more concerned with how this combination will react to under-development. What I'm thinking of is high SBR with enough exposure to carry the shadow detail I want, then just enough development to get me a Zone VIII of around 1.0.

This is something I do with Tri-X now, because I'm scanning and this tests out to be optimum for my workflow. I'm thinking now that this might not be optimum for 400Tmax and Pyrocat-HD, because of the stain. There's already less silver in the negative with this combination, so perhaps there's less need to reduce density to reduce Callier Effect when scanning. What do you think?

In any case, I'm committed to some experimentation. I just ordered a box of 400Tmax, so I've got 50 sheets to burn...

sanking
11-Sep-2006, 10:37
[QUOTE=Bruce Watson]I'm more concerned with how this combination will react to under-development. What I'm thinking of is high SBR with enough exposure to carry the shadow detail I want, then just enough development to get me a Zone VIII of around 1.0.

This is something I do with Tri-X now, because I'm scanning and this tests out to be optimum for my workflow. I'm thinking now that this might not be optimum for 400Tmax and Pyrocat-HD, because of the stain. There's already less silver in the negative with this combination, so perhaps there's less need to reduce density to reduce Callier Effect when scanning. What do you think?

QUOTE]

I agree that if you are only developing to a Zone VIII density of around 1.0 the stain is not going to give you much of an advantage over a non-staining developer in terms of grain masking.

BTW, I live in South Carolina and have done a lot of photography of water falls in the conditions you describe. The light can be so extreme that I usually just avoid these scenes unless the day is cloudy or the scene is in shade. And that goes for any film, not just TMY.

However, if I were to expose negatives with Pyrocat-HD and TMY in these conditions of extreme contrast (SBR of 10 or more) my first inclination would be to use a very diluted version of Pyrocat-HD, say 1.5:1:200, and develop with reduced agitation procedures, say no more agitation cycles than two or three. Unlike TRI-X You will not lose a lot of EFS with TMY with under-development so an EFS of 200 or 300 should give you more than enough shadow detail. Assuming the low CI you want about 20-25 minutes of development with the reduced agitation should give good results with an SBR of 10

You could also try the same dilution (1.5:1:200) with rotary develoment in your Jobo. I have not specifically tested this but for a SBR of 10 I would suggest tests around 12-15minutes.

Sandy King

steve simmons
11-Sep-2006, 12:07
In my experience the best film for minus developing is Tri-X. It does the best job of holding its local contrast while allowing a reduction in the overall contrast. Since you are using vc paper, most people, even Sandy in an earlier post in another thread, stated that the PMK, because ot its stain color was the better staining developer. The Rollo Pyro is a varition of PMK for JOBO processing.

steve simmons

Ken Lee
11-Sep-2006, 12:08
Speaking of Callier Effect: why would stain be different than Silver in this regard ?

Does the intensity of the effect vary according to grain size - versus comparatively smaller stain molecules ?

sanking
11-Sep-2006, 14:11
Since you are using vc paper, most people, even Sandy in an earlier post in another thread, stated that the PMK, because ot its stain color was the better staining developer.

steve simmons

You are misquoting me. I never said that PMK was a better staining developer. What I have said in the past is that PMK may give more compensation in the highlights than Pyrocat-HD with VC papers.

However, I may have been wrong in making the above statement. Based on a lot of recent comparison printing with VC papers using PMK, Pyrocat-HD, D-75 and Xtol I am about to conclude that the difference in compensation in the highlight between the yellow-green stain of PMK and other pyrogallol based developers and Pyrocat-HD and brown stain developers is not really very great at all when you factor in the role of VC filters in controlling contrast. But more on that later.

In any event, since compensation may also give highlight compression, which results in a loss of contrast in the highlights, it is a characteristic, not necessarily a good or bad thing pe se.


Sandy King

Jorge Gasteazoro
11-Sep-2006, 14:15
I'd like to hear from anyone who is shooting 5x4 400Tmax, processing on Jobo using a 3010 drum, developing with Pryocat-HD.

How flexible is this combination? How well does it do N- and N+ development?
Bruce I use 400 Tmx and pyrocat exclusively for 8x10 and now thanks to Michael and JandC in 12x20 as well, you are going to love the combination. I live in a semi desertic area and my SBRs are rarely below 11 and have been as high as 16, I have been able to handle this with ease using the above combination. Good luck.

steve simmons
11-Sep-2006, 17:03
Sandy

You erased the post but you did acknowledge that PMK would work better for vc papers because of the color of the stain.

steve simmons

Michael Kadillak
11-Sep-2006, 17:35
When Sandy posts the results of his detailed (and I might add very time consuming) Pyro Study along with the documentation and methods supporting his conclusions many questions such as the one posed here by Steve should be satisfactorly resolved once and for all.

Like many I anxiously await what I know will be a monumental contribution to the photographic community.

Cheers!

steve simmons
11-Sep-2006, 17:41
as an avid proponent of his own formula his results will be more suspect than he accuses mine of being for PMK which I did not create and do not sell either the book or the chemicals. It will be like a drug company reporting the results of their own study on their own product. The scientific community would never respect any such findings.

steve simmons

tim atherton
11-Sep-2006, 17:51
It will be like a drug company reporting the results of their own study on their own product.
steve simmons

hmmm - that's essentially what they do a lot of the time

sanking
11-Sep-2006, 17:58
Sandy

You erased the post but you did acknowledge that PMK would work better for vc papers because of the color of the stain.

steve simmons

Steve,


That is simply not correct. I have never stated that PMK would work better with VC papers than Pyrocat-HD because of the color of the stain.. You won't find that statement on any forum, not because it has been erased, but because it was never said.

I have, on the other hand, discussed the fact that the yellow-green stain of PMK gives more compensation (or compression) in the highlights than the brown stain of Pyrocat-HD, and that this may offers advantages in some, but not all lighting conditions. For example, if one were printing on VC silver papers, and all other things were equal, I might recommend the use of PMK in scenes of very high contrast, but Pyrocat-HD in scenes of normal or low contrast..


Sandy

steve simmons
11-Sep-2006, 18:05
"hmmm - that's essentially what they do a lot of the time"

yes, but until verified by an independent source they are held suspect

steve simmons

sanking
11-Sep-2006, 18:21
as an avid proponent of his own formula his results will be more suspect than he accuses mine of being for PMK which I did not create and do not sell either the book or the chemicals. It will be like a drug company reporting the results of their own study on their own product. The scientific community would never respect any such findings.

steve simmons

First of all, we are involved in a study of pyro versus non-staining formulas for the purpose of answering some questions that many people have about these developers. I would never think of doing anything as stupid, suspect and self-serving as to make a direct comparision of Pyrocat-HD with PMK, or with any other developer, staining or otherwise, for that matter. Pyro developers offer some real advantages, IMHO, but there are also a number of myths out there about them that I hope to addreess with facts.

Second, in situations where there are subjective evaluations that have to be made, as with print sharpness and grain, for example, we will be using an outside evaluator to evaluate print sharpness and grain and the chips will fall where they fall.

Third, I am confident our study will have credibility in the community because the methodology will be transparent, so that anyone who wants to repeat the tests can do so and reach his/her own conclusions about the merits of our findings. That, I believe, is how things are done in the scientific community and in respected journals.

As for the comparison of Pyrocat-HD and PMK that you published two years ago in the July/August issue of View Camera, entitled PMK vs. Pyrocat HD: What Are the Differences and Do They Matter for the Silver Print?, I previously determined to have nothing more to say about it.

Sandy King

steve simmons
11-Sep-2006, 18:27
The upcoming article on staining developers in View Camera (Sept/Oct 06) will do a lot of this already. The difference is that with our article you were not in control but an independent editor was (that is why you initially refused to participate because you wanted control over who would be included).

steve

sanking
11-Sep-2006, 18:43
The upcoming article on staining developers in View Camera (Sept/Oct 06) will do a lot of this already. The difference is that with our article you were not in control but an independent editor was (that is why you initially refused to participate because you wanted control over who would be included).

steve

In my experience communications of a professional nature between the editor of a magazine and a person who has been asked to contribute to the magazine should be confidential in nature. Why I chose to initially decline to participate in the article, and subsequently changed my mind, was in my estimation a matter between you and me, and not one for you to share with the public. I certainly did not consider the issue to be public, and am shocked that you thought it appropriate to mention anything about it on this forum.

Sandy King

steve simmons
11-Sep-2006, 19:01
It became relevant because your study is being touted as monumental. You are in control which invalidates any findings as being objective. This is the same thing that happened with the View Camera article. You wanted to be in control and not allow everyone to participate. This does not bode well for any subsequent study you do.

steve

Michael Kadillak
11-Sep-2006, 19:21
It became relevant because your study is being touted as monumental. You are in control which invalidates any findings as being objective. This is the same thing that happened with the View Camera article. You wanted to be in control and not allow everyone to participate. This does not bode well for any subsequent study you do.

steve

Given Sandy's solid academic background and his utilization of blind third party judges relative to potentially biased interpretative components I am elated that this subject is finally being studied.

BUT at the end of the day I feel that I and many LF participants around the globe have the intellectual capacity of accepting or rejecting all or any components of Sandy's study or anything that View Camera produces or concludes at our personal descretion.

Cheers!

sanking
11-Sep-2006, 19:21
It became relevant because your study is being touted as monumental. You are in control which invalidates any findings as being objective. This is the same thing that happened with the View Camera article. You wanted to be in control and not allow everyone to participate. This does not bode well for any subsequent study you do.

steve


As previously stated, I believe it is highly unprofessional for the editor of a magazine to be engaged in this type of exchange, and I have no further comment.

Sandy

sanking
11-Sep-2006, 19:28
Given Sandy's solid academic background and his utilization of blind third party judges relative to potentially biased interpretative components I am elated that this subject is finally being studied.

BUT at the end of the day I feel that I and many LF participants around the globe have the intellectual capacity of accepting or rejecting all or any components of Sandy's study or anything that View Camera produces or concludes at our personal descretion.

Cheers!

Michael,

I must say that more is perhaps expected than I for one feel capable of producing. The issues, though they appear simple on the face of it, are really quite complicated and difficult to test.

However, whether the study is useful or not there will be a methodology described that others can follow if they disagree with the conclusions.

Sandy

Michael Kadillak
11-Sep-2006, 19:36
Michael,

I must say that more is perhaps expected than I for one feel capable of producing. The issues, though they appear simple on the face of it, are really quite complicated and difficult to test.

However, whether the study is useful or not there will be a methodology described that others can follow if they disagree with the conclusions.

Sandy

Fair enough.