Difference between Speed and Crown???

[Michael Graves]

I'm always seeing Crown Graphics sell in the $300+ range and Speeds usually bring $200 or less. I always thought that the speed with the same camera except with a focal plane shutter. If you didn't want to use the shutter, there was an option for releasing the spring tension and leaving it open for ground glass use. Am I missing something? I've been thinking about getting back into miniature photography (that's a joke, okay?) and am curious about that.

[Oren Grad]

Michael, that's right. But because of the focal plane shutter, a Speed has two characteristics that can be disadvantages sometimes. First, the body is deeper and the minimum flange-to-film distance is greater because of the thickness of the focal plane shutter. This limits the use of shorter focal length lenses to some extent. Second, because of the larger body and the focal plane shutter mechanism, a Speed is noticeably heavier than a corresponding Crown. Given that a 4x5 Crown is around 5 pounds even without the shutter, you might prefer it to a Speed if you're intending to use the camera hand-held, focusing via the rangefinder. I bought a 4x5 Graphic recently and I went for a Crown for just that reason.

[John Kasaian]

Michael,
I've currently have two speeders and a crown. The crowns are slightly thinner and a little lighter but there is one other factor that gooses the price up rather substantially. The some crowns ("specials ?") had top mounted rangefinders---really neat for handheld work, I guess---I guess because none of my graphics have top monted range finders so I don't know for sure.

Any graphic in good condition is a heck of a lot of fun!

[Frank Petronio]

The top mounted rangefinders are better if you are using the original lenses with the proper cams. However, if you can't find the proper cam for your lens, there is no room for adjustment outside of filing away at the cam. On the other hand, the side-mounted Kalhart rangefinders are adjustable for most of the intermediate focal lengths (90-210) so you can hang any lens you want and adjust the RF to suit.

I never found either type of RF accurate enough for shallow depth of field portraiture (wasted a lot of film on that) but they are more than adequate for >f/11 landscapes and middle distances.

There are also older RF systems floating around, like the Hugo Meyer, but I think the Kalhart is regarded as the best of the lot.

Another good reason to go with the top RF is that the cameras are usually newer and in better condition. But unless you are a gorilla it is hard to hurt either Graphic -- unless you buy one from a cigar smoker. That pretty much ruins them. Fabreeze doesn't help that.

One of the nicest set-ups I saw was a Crown with a Kalhart and a fast 135/3.5 Xenotar, plus a Linhof side grip. I should have bought that one, it was a sweet set-up.

[Walter Calahan]

Just buy both. I did. HA!

Speed - 210 mm

Crown - 90 mm & 135 mm

[squiress]

Two other points in favor of the Speed: 1) Higher shutter speed than most lens shutters will allow with 1/1000 capability. This makes the camera a better handheld shooter if that's what strikes your fancy. 2) If you get one with a functioning shutter that's in good shape, you have the opportunity to use a variety of barrel lenses that are quite inexpensive compared to their shuttered counterparts.

I have two Crowns and one Speed and the Speed is my favorite of the three. I do tripod everything and drive to most of my shooting sites so the extra weight and thickness doesn't really bother me.

Stew

[Michael Graves]

So there IS a difference. After reading your replies, I'm not sure there's enough difference. I'll just buy the first one of either model that comes along in good condition that isn't a skyrocket price.

DAMN!! I just sold or traded all my 4x6 film holders, too because I didn't have a 4x5. I gotta stop being so fickle.

[Ole Tjugen]

I picked up a nice pre-anniversary Speed for only $65 recently. It came without a lens, which may have put some potential buyers off? The bellows were brand new synthetic, and the focal plane shutter works. And that's why I bought it - for use with old shutterless lenses. I've put a small iris lens mount on a lensboard, so I'm ready to shoot with all the funny little lenses I have :)

[Michael Graves]

I put a bid on a Speed last night. Maybe I'll get it; maybe I won't. But I want one with the aluminum lensboards, because I have three of them that came in a box of junk I picked up at an auction. And my 135mm Xenar fits into one of them. Here's another question somebody might be able to answer...

In that box of junk was a fairly clean 203mm Ektar. But it's clearly not in the right shutter. The lens is engraved 7.7 and the max. aperture is 4.5. Is there an intelligent way to translate those f-stops in the field? One that doesn't require calculus?

[Ole Tjugen]

Michael, I've got fourteen lens boards, wood, metal, and plastic, from a similar box of "junk". I didn't manage to get rid of them fast enough, so now I have a camera to match the lens boards...

Open up the aperture fully, then close slowly until you can just see the aperture blades encroaching on the opening. Set a mark there, that's f:7.7. I would say that it's close enough to f:8 that I wouldn't bother with further "refinements", but just tick off the rest of the stops at the same offset from the "original" markings on the shutter.

Make visible marks instead of trying to remember in the field. I didn't, and then got all confused over the offset between a shutter for a 210mm f:4.5 and the 355mm f:9 which as really in the shutter. I've made marks now.

[Michael Graves]

Thanks, Ole. That's a pretty simple solution. Elegant. I like it. The shutter its in is nice an clean so I hate to sacrifice it.

[65Galaxie]

I recently shot some pictures of our foreign exchange student with my 135 Optar in a Speed Graphic with 6x9 back at f8 and most of the pictures the face is slightly out of focus. Problem was that I used the Kalart rangefinder and focused on his buttons on the top of his shirt since it was easier to focus instead of face features. His face was forward from the buttons perhaps 6 inches and that was enough to get out of the dof range. My problem was probably using f8 at 6ft distance. I was using old 800speed film at iso200 since it was 5 yrs out of date but the lab said they were 1.25 stops overexposed. Should have used the film at iso400 speed and f16. Shutter speeds would have been in the 1/25th range at that combo and shade. BTW: the 135 Optar makes a good portrait lens with the 6x9 back for head and shoulders if cropping the neg. to aprox. 6x4.5 dimensions which is adequate for 16x20 enlargements if needed.

P.S. I use my speed with a 90 Optar also but with 4x5 film it requires the bed to be dropped with the lens standard against the tilted front rails with the focus all the way back and it's just about focused at infinity. Put some pencil marks on the bedrail for 8ft and 4ft. to get max dof for landscapes. Haven't had the nerve to try it handheld with the 6x9 back.

[Kevin Crisp]

Michael: A few other thoughts from a former SG user and current CG user. The difference in width and weight can make a difference if you try to put together a small overshoulder bag. The CG can fit in lots of 35mm bags, with one or two small lenses in the side pockets. I think the Kalart rangefinder is the way to go, it is adjustable for a wide number of lenses. If you follow the factory instructions exactly on adjusting it, including the instructions for checking the close focus, it will focus the camera precisely. I do a quick check before I take it on long trips. It stays adjusted unless it gets knocked around. The Hugo Myer rangefinder may or may not be fully adjustable, it is not often discussed and I have not seen readily available instructions for it. When buying one, make sure the Kalart rangefinder is working with two clear images that move. A highly desireable outfit to find (and very common back when many people were using these professionally) is one with a normal 135 lens and a 90 Angulon. These usually come all together when somebody has found an old factory Vulcanoid case in a closet and sells it as a lot. If the camera comes with a bed with two sets of focus scales and infinity stops, that is a real plus, since tracking down useful little parts is a pain. When buying, make sure you are bidding on a 4X5 model not a smaller one, since they all look about the same in the eBay photos and sellers often do not declare the difference. If the seller is knowledgable I'd ask if you are getting the original ground glass and Ektalite (Kodak) fresnel since people have cobbled together lots of other screens that may or may not index correctly. The factory combination is decent with faster lenses, not so hot if you use smaller slow lenses like the repro-clarons. (There is a Maxwell screen available, which would be an excellent upgrade.) By all means make sure you get a camera with a Graflok back, and eventually some Grafmatics, since they generally work well and make it a much more convenient camera to use. Hold the camera level when you cycle the film, you are less likely to get a jam.

[Leonard Robertson]

I suspect Speeds tend to be somewhat cheaper than Crowns because of the "Speeds are heavier" factor. I just weighed a 4X5 side-RF Pacemaker Crown and a Speed of the same variety on my not-guaranteed-accurate kitchen scale. The Crown is 5 1/2 pounds; the Speed 6 1/2 pounds. The Speed body is approx 1/2 inch deeper than the Crown. I'd go with a Speed myself, but either will provide hours of fun and entertainment. I second the "one of each" suggestion, but I don't have very good Graphic resistance - 12 have followed me home over the years.

[Dan Fromm]

Um, its hard to stop with just one. One really needs a Crown for shorter lenses than will work on a Speed and a Speed for longer lenses than will work on a Crown and for lenses in barrel.

[Donald Qualls]

Another reason you may see a lot of Speeds go for less: the Speed Graphic, in various versions, was made from 1928 until 1970 or a little after, when Graflex finally went under, while the Crown was only made from about 1948 until the end. There were literally thousands of Speed Graphics in use before the first Crown shipped, and they continued to sell well because the focal plane shutter had a higher top speed than anything practical with a leaf shutter (Kodak and Graflex, as well as a couple Japanese makers of 35 mm RF cameras, eventually made leaf shutters advertised to run above 1/500, but there's considerable doubt if any actually managed it, much less without going a stop or so dark due to the open and close time being longer than the open dwell -- but I trust my 1939 Speed Graphic's focal plane shutter to deliver a real 1/1000 if I wind it up that tight). The older cameras have correspondingly more wear, and in original condition will have either a Graflex (bad, cannot use modern holders) or Graphic back (the latter a standard spring back), while only those made after 1951 or retrofitted might have the desirable Graflock back that permits mounting all Polaroid and roll-film holders. And the pre-Pacemaker Speeds completely lack flash synch on the focal plane shutter, though that's of limited use today, given the scarcity of focal plane type flashbulbs.

So, one thing you may be seeing is the effect of an older population of Speeds as compared to Crowns.

Personally, I consider that a boon -- I don't need super-short lenses (can't afford them anyway), and wanted a Speed primarily because of the focal plane shutter; it's good that they're less costly and thus I was able to afford a good one a while back... :)

[SoCal Dave]

The most affordable are the Speeds and Crowns. The Super Graphic and the Super Speed Graphic are newer and usually more expensive. All of them should do you just fine as I have a Pacemaker Crown and it is quite a joy to shoot Polaroids with it :D

Here is a small pic of my Crown.

[Alonzo Guerrero]

Absolutely great cameras. I just wanted to reiterate Kevin's statement...Graflok back, Graflok back, Graflok back. Some of the cheaper/older models come with a spring back. These are fine for standard two sheet holders, but tend to be over burdened by the thicker holders like Grafmatic(multi-sheet mag), Polaroid 405(pack film), or Polaroid 550(single sheet holder for Type 55 and ready loads) holders. The spring back is usually all black, while the Graflok has a visibly noticeable chrome trimmed sled that allows the back to slip off to accept different accessory backs.

Check out www.graflex.org

--ag

[Michael Graves]

Well, I won a Speed with a 127mm lens. Haven't got it yet, but the seller claims that the focal plane shutter works at all speeds. The photos make it look clean enough. I got it for just a hair over $150.00 with the shipping and all. It comes with a clunky old toolbox style case, a few older wooden film holders that I'll have to test before I use, and one of those old fashioned flash guns, which I'll put on display in my old camera collection and forget it exists. I'll post some shots once I get any. Thanks to everybody for all their help.


Now for a Crown.

[j.e.simmons]

I found that all four of my Graphics tend to get very dusty inside the bellows. I don't know if material flakes off the bellows or the way the camera is made is prone to collecting dust. At any rate, I got lots of dust spots on my negatives until I took a small vacuum cleaner and vacuumed the cameras out. I do that a couple of times a year and have no problems. Good luck with your cameras - they're lots of fun.
juan

[Michael Graves]

Thanks, Juan. I appreciate that. I've got a Kirby vacuum with an antistatic nozzle that I use periodically on all my view cameras and folders. I also use it each time I load my film holders. So I do understand what a nasty little pest a single speck of dust can be. Several of them still manage to play havoc on every photo I make, it seems. Got the tracking number from the seller about an hour ago. I'll get the camera on FRI. On Saturday, I'll be doing film speed calibrations.

[Michael Graves]

My Speed Graphic came in today. Thirty pounds of camera, holders and case got here faster that fourteen ounces of film, so I can't do a calibration run yet. But it was like deja vu all over again. I had one of these things 25 years ago. It's just like riding a bike. I even remembered where the release button was hidden!! Anybody want three wooden film holders and a film pack adapter? What'cha got to swap?