Investing in our future!

[Gerry Harrison]

Hello,

With the plague like advance of digital we all know film,paper and chemicals are endangered...not just in the respect to availabilty but cost. Agfa & Durst are now gone in the short year I have gotten back into this great pastime. As I periodic photo shops I see the prices rising and as I look at the Kodak chemicals I wonder how long they will have left. I really appreciate companies like Freestyle and JanC for making European products available and the great costs for now they display eg. FomaPan 100 4x5 $29.99 under the Arista Edu Ultra name..this is excellent value but for how long. Please don't call me an alarmist but as more companies and favorite products continue to dissappear the prices will take a major jumps and I think this will happen very fast over the next 2 to 5 yrs. So if you have favourite products and are budget minded or just like a prudent investment..I would suggest you buy FRESH film, paper and chemicals KNOW. Thank the Lord above they still make fridges.

[roteague]

I don't know how true that is. Costs have gone up, and so have silver prices.

[Gerry Harrison]

Hello,

I would like to ask anyone on this forum who currently works in the Photographic supply business....how the sales of film,paper and chemicals has faired over the last couple of years. The digital camera sales and quantam advances in technology have been so quick I do not think we realise what is actually happening...why are there so many cameras being unloaded on Ebay LF for example..the studios and pros are going digital..the digital results are know acceptable to pros and are getting better. This has been a great benefit to me as I have picked up a Hasselblad setup and Lf setup within the last year for a song. These where way out of my reach and only a dream years ago. Film will be a niche market and expensive..we will all be drawn to digital for cost,convience and price. Who will stay true..................as for convience on Digital..computers can be most frustrating at times. I would love to hear your comments..please disagree.

Gerry

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

I am on the road to recovery so I just bought 1 box of 12x20 JandC 400, one of TMY 12x20 and one of 8x10 JandC 400. If things continue to go well I plan to use it all and make another order in 3 or 4 months, just as soon as I finish making all the prints I owe to the people in this forum who so graciously helped me. BTW, Kirk, Brian, your prints go out this week.

[lungovw]

Does anybody know how enthusiast companies having brands like Efke, Forte, Oriental and Foma are about the future? Are they growing? Do they consider the Fine Art and the amateur market enough to run their production lines? For how long? Those are for me the crucial questions for anybody who intends to continue with film photography. We can forget about Kodak, Agfa and all the big ones.

WL

[Ron Marshall]

Every three or four months a thread like this comes along.

Most of the pros who intended to go digital are there already. The same is true for most casual shooters.

As prices continue to drop and resolution and dynamic range improve a few more will make the switch.

For the foreseeable future there will be a market for sheet film. There may be some consolidation of suppliers, but that should not affect price signifigantly.

The main effect will be a curtailment of research.

I have no worries about the price or availability of 4x5 film.

[Patrik Roseen]

Rumour??
I heard a 'strange' statement from a person working in a photolab in Stockholm - he said that people in Japan are turning back to film after trying digital for a while because they lack the real true colors and 'live' photos. He claimed it was starting to get difficult to order film from Japan because they were buying all that was produced locally. (Bad thought - It might just as well be that they have started to cut down production already, gulp!)


Anyway, I just received my latest order of 4x5 film last week, a 50 pack Efke PL100, 50pck TMX and ten 120-rolls of TMY.
I am hoping to go on another photojourney this autumn and am considering ordering some Velvia 100F in 4x5. Is it really as nice as the old velvia 50 for nature?

[Gerry Harrison]

How many LF shooters on this forum have already abandoned the darkroom in favour of a scanner. They still shoot film but the darkroom has gone.....the hook is in. Ron says " For the foreseeable future there will be a market for sheet film ".....I feel the future comes so much faster these days especially in photography. Film will be around for a while but it will come at a premium...chemicals and paper will probably go in favour of more supposed enviormently friendly scanners and printers. Film may only available online. We have a photo school in my city The Western Academy of Photography..I went to the students year end photo display..I asked to be directed to the B&W images buy film..less than a half dozen in a room of hundreds of images. The Academy does still teachs film but a small percentage. As this generation of photographers comes along which is know..what do you think they will shoot..not film.

Gerry

[MJSfoto1956]

So if you have favourite products and are budget minded or just like a prudent investment..I would suggest you buy FRESH film, paper and chemicals KNOW. Thank the Lord above they still make fridges.

supply and demand cannot be manipulated by such a scheme. Should it succeed, then future sales would be in jeopardy. Ironically, you would be forcing people to go out of business by your very success!! You simply need to let the market go where it needs. Eventually, things will settle down (for a while) until the next "big" thing that comes along and shakes everything to its core.

I have great respect for and trust in "the market" -- over time (excluding transient fads), it never fails.

[George Stewart]

I just saw a friend's 40"+ cropped prints from a 1DS Mk II. They are very impressive (even close up), and although not a competition for LF, for most people, they'll never need anything more.

Give me a sensor that does 8x10 quality for $10k, and film will be history. Within about two years, Kodak should have their 55MP 6x4.5 sensor out. This will beat 4x5 and give 8x10 a run for the money at all but the largest sizes.

[Ralph Barker]

I think the best way to support those vendors we want to keep around is to shoot more, and buy regularly. :cool:

[chris_4622]

I am hoping to go on another photojourney this autumn and am considering ordering some Velvia 100F in 4x5. Is it really as nice as the old velvia 50 for nature?

The Velvia 100F did not replace the Velvia 50. Look for the 100 without the F if you want the same look as the 50.

chris

[false_Aesthetic]

Didn't kodak stop r+d for all cameras? Does is this rumored 55 mp back not considered a camera. Sorry for the tangent.

[John Kasaian]

Don't worry, shoot away! Quite possibly traditional materials will go up in price (everything does) but its unlikely your 8x10 has a motordrive so burning two hundred exposures in a nanosecond isn't likely. Outfits like Freestyle, J and C and PhotoWarehouse have been selling sheet films at bargain prices for a long time---and they've more often than not proven to be excellent emulsions so take your pick and enjoy! "Momento Mori"

[Gerry Harrison]

Ralph says "I think the best way to support those vendors we want to keep around is to shoot more, and buy regularly ".... I say this respectfully...you can shoot your nuts off with Kodak film but it will be gone soon. Back to my original post..please buy your favourite film an put a ton in the freezer..it may be gone tommorrow or you could still buy it on Ebay for twice the price..its up to you. It is truly an investment in more ways than one. How about China.........will Ilford have to open plants in China... maybe not, China has natural resource problems ( they will need silver ) ..up goes the price of film. What if a new technology or process program comes along in the next few years that beats or enhances digitals images beyond 8X10 quality. Look at what cameras your kids are buying.

Gerry

[Ron Marshall]

What if a new technology or process program comes along in the next few years that beats or enhances digitals images beyond 8X10 quality. Look at what cameras your kids are buying.

Gerry

There are many What ifs. What if your freezer breaks down.

[Gerry Harrison]

Hey Ron

What if... your freezer breaks down....well the film will be fine but the meat is what I am concerned about. LOL good fun thanks for participating.

Gerry

[Robert Skeoch]

I think film's going to be around for a long time.
My sports photography is all done on digital and has been for years.... I'm on my fifth generation of digital, but who cares, the stuff I really love is large format.
Digital will never replace it because the great part of LF is in the shooting, some people call it the zen of large format.
You'll never replace the feeling of creating a great picture on a view camera with some plastic 8 frames a second digital box that needs replacement every two years.
When I get my next field camera... a 5x7 Ebony I hope, I expect to use it for the next 30 years.
-Rob
www.bigcameraworkshops.com

[SAShruby]

As long as people like Michael and Paula are here, bringing Lodima (New Azo) back and Ilford which still continues production of film and we start support these people, I will not worry about future.

We need to pick suppliers they willing to support us so let's support them as well. There is enough people just on this forum to keep them running. Not to mention APUG and others.

We need to pick our battlefields as well if we want to survive.

[Brian Ellis]

This comes up all the time. The fact is that none of us can predict the future so what's the point. Use the materials you have available as long as they're available, when they're not switch to something else.

I don't see how anyone not into digital cameras can be anything except depressed by events of the last five years. Digital took over much faster than I thought it would. I thought film would dominate among pros and "serious amateurs" for at least another decade (so much for my prediction abilities). But that doesn't tell us what will happen in the next five years though the notion that people in large enough numbers to matter will drop digital and return to film strikes me as fanciful at best.

[Brian Ellis]

This comes up all the time. The fact is that none of us can predict the future so what's the point. Use the materials you have available as long as they're available, when they're not switch to something else.

[Dirk Rösler]

I heard a 'strange' statement from a person working in a photolab in Stockholm - he said that people in Japan are turning back to film after trying digital for a while because they lack the real true colors and 'live' photos. He claimed it was starting to get difficult to order film from Japan because they were buying all that was produced locally.

Is that person on valium or similar medication? A downright bizarre statement.

[cyrus]

Painting didn't die off when photography came along, and art stores are still selling paints and brushes. Similarly, film photography won't die off because of digital photography.

In fact, I think that the rate of development of digital photography technology is so rapid that it may evolve itself totally away from anything we can call "photography" thus ending the "threat" to traditional film photography. I suspect that digital photography will evolve into digital motion image capture. Digital cameras designed to capture still-images can easily capture moving images already, and the mediums where digital images are displayed can also display moving images just as easily (they already sell "picture frames" that are actually LCD screens) Print magazines which use a lot of commercial still photos are goners already as the internet evolves. As these momentous changes occur in the digital field, traditional film photography will just quietly go on chugging along with its 100+ year technology...

So, what's really endangered (by its own success) is the digitally-captured still image.

That said, I think there will be certainly fewer companies making enlargers, lenses etc. So if you want to hoard something, hoard the gear.

[Andrew O'Neill]

As this generation of photographers comes along which is know..what do you think they will shoot..not film

Many kids today are not really interested in "the process". They like pressing a button and it's done.

[Patrik Roseen]

Is that person on valium or similar medication? A downright bizarre statement.

Well he looked sober to me...
Dirk what's the story about film availability and labs in Japan, any clear trends? How about availability of used LF-gear in Japan?

[Dirk Rösler]

Dirk what's the story about film availability and labs in Japan, any clear trends? How about availability of used LF-gear in Japan?

There is plenty of labs, film and gear used and new here (central Tokyo). When I went to my native Germany in 2004 I was shocked about how difficult it was to get anything LF in the shops, all by mail order from "pro shops" (Fachgeschaeft). For film you have to go to "pro labs" (Fachlabor)... $$$. Here in Japan, you can drop off 120 b/w film to be processed at your dry cleaner's (haven't tried sheet film yet, but since it is sent out I assume they would do it too).

Mmmh, guess I went to photo heaven early.

[Don Wallace]

A lot of folks argue that the resolution of digital backs will soon be the same as, or perhaps even better than 4x5, maybe eventually 8x10. If you shoot large format only for the resolution, then that is likely good news for you.

However, the main difference (and I really don't see this changing, ever) is that digital is like colour slide film, with about 4-5 stops. Negative has about twice this. If I were only shooting colour reversal, maybe digital would make sense, but for monochrome and the kind of extraordinary tonal subtlety one can achieve, I don't see digital as a rival even in the distant future, if ever. OK, maybe someone will argue that somewhere down the road, it will be. I will likely be compost by then.

[Ron Marshall]

A lot of folks argue that the resolution of digital backs will soon be the same as, or perhaps even better than 4x5, maybe eventually 8x10. If you shoot large format only for the resolution, then that is likely good news for you.



Since the market for MF backs is much more limited than the market for consumer DSLRs, I don't ever see non-scanning MF backs for less than $5000, and not for a decade. Even at that price they would not be worth it for "weekend" shooters.

[Patrik Roseen]

There is plenty of labs, film and gear used and new here (central Tokyo). When I went to my native Germany in 2004 I was shocked about how difficult it was to get anything LF in the shops, all by mail order from "pro shops" (Fachgeschaeft). For film you have to go to "pro labs" (Fachlabor)... $$$. Here in Japan, you can drop off 120 b/w film to be processed at your dry cleaner's (haven't tried sheet film yet, but since it is sent out I assume they would do it too).

Mmmh, guess I went to photo heaven early.

Interesting Dirk! Seems Japan has not suffered as much as northern Europe regarding film+lab availability. There must still be quite alot of people who have yet not turned to digital...Does it depend on penetration of PCs and broadband connections...Do Japanese share photos in prints rather than files, i.e. any cultural differences? I'm still curious about the trends in Japan.

I live in Sweden and what you say about Germany applies here too. The photoshops still around deal mostly with digital, and it is possible to only buy color negative film in APS or 35mm size - No use asking for chrome or 120-film, the staff have never heard about it! (the 35mm color negative is available in supermarkets too ...laying in heaps in large bins at almost no cost at all). Any other type of film needs to be bought at professional labs or on the web.
The professional studios (weddings, passports, celebrations) have all gone digital. It's possible to buy 120-film from them out of their personal left over stock in the freezer...with the comment "Oh, I have not used film in years".

Maybe it was the APS-film that actually turned people of. I know from my own experience a few years ago that I was highly disappointed at the results I got back from the lab when having used such cameras and film, especially when consuming film in panorama mode. The quality of the prints in relation to the cost for film and printing was ridiculus. I guess the step to 1.3MP digital cams was quite easy for most people after trying APS.

[Gerry Harrison]

Hello, you Gents may find yhis interesting ..this is the intro for the new FreeStyle photo flyer.

"Dear Creative Photographer,
Recently, I accompanied several members of Freestyle’s senior management team on a whirlwind trip to
Europe, touring the headquarters and manufacturing facilities of several of our key partners such as
Foma, Kentmere, Fotospeed, Ilford, Forte, and Fotokemika. As we met with the top executives of each of
these organizations, we were constantly assured of their support of Freestyle’s commitment to aggressively
work to insure Black and White photography remains alive, available and as affordable as possible.
Unfortunately, we also discussed the problematic issues regarding the rapidly increasing costs involved
in the production of Black and White film and photographic papers, especially petroleum and silver. With
increases in the past 12 months alone of over 40% for petroleum and silver prices that recently are in a
constant state of flux - at times reaching over $15.00 / oz. (a 100%+ increase over last year) - virtually
every manufacturer has been forced to raise their prices significantly. BE ASSURED, HOWEVER, THAT
FREESTYLE IS COMMITTED TO CONTINUE TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO MINIMIZE THE EFFECTS OF
THESE PRICE INCREASES ON OUR CUSTOMERS.
While we have been successful in negotiating delays in price increases thru mid-August with many of
our manufacturing partners, several have informed us they must raise prices immediately. I’m sure you
have noticed increases already in effect for some Ilford, Kodak and Fuji products

[MJSfoto1956]

However, the main difference (and I really don't see this changing, ever) is that digital is like colour slide film, with about 4-5 stops.
Sorry, to have to disagree with you somewhat on this one. A BetterLight scanning back can capture a full 12-stops of data (unlike any other single-shot digital back available today). This puts it's dynamic range beyond the reach of the best color negative films.

IMHO, what the *REAL* difference is this: the ability and skill to preview the image (literally see it in your head) before clicking the shutter. The instant feedback of small cameras (especially digicams) makes this unnecessary. In fact, it can be argued that small, instant-feedback cameras can make you lazy if you don't excercise extreme caution.

Whereas *ALL* big cameras have one thing in common: each image is precious (and it shows).

[buze]

I shot my very first film last october. Before that, I shot digital only (early DSLR, P&S, then "modern" dslr etc), and had been since 1995 or so.

Now I shoot 90% film; 135, 120, and now 4x5; E6 & B&W. Oh and I started wet-printing.

I wish I had discovered film before !

I'm /sure/ I must not be alone in "upgrading" to film; One guy I know who works for fuji told me film sales have stopped dipping and they have even forecasted a small rise over the next 2 years...