Large format newbie help.

[jimbobuk]

Hi guys,

I've received my first large format kit this week and am keen to try it out this weekend so i can be sure its all working fine.. I'm familiar with various 35mm and medium format cameras, so am keen to learn how to take photos with a large format camera.

I brought the recommended beginners text

"Using the View Camera" by Steve Simmons

Which i am about to go and read through but for now i was looking for more specific answers to questions about the kit i got.. here are the items that I brought..

Shen Hao 5x4 folding field camera body varnished teak.
Schneider Kreusnack symmar 150 5.6 for 5x4 +lensboard
5 double dark slides for 5x4 cameras
Horseman 6cmx12cm.120 roll fim back for 5x4 cameras

I know some people aren't fans of the Shen Hao cameras, I was too impatient but I'm hoping it'll be sufficient for a beginner, who'll probably make more mistakes than the camera causes.

I'll try to take some pictures so perhaps people can tell me if for example the lens is a modern design or an old one, whether its rated as reasonable or a poor performer.. it was quite cheap and I was keen to not spend too much more as the combined costs were higher than i'd have liked to have spent.

I brought the medium format back as I am familiar with developing my own medium format film.. also my scanner (espon 4490) will scan the 6cmx12cm slides straight away.. this sadly looks like the maximum negative size it will scan as the light box in the lid is not any taller than the 6cm of medium format film.. I've posted seperately about my patterson orbital tank that I'm hoping will let me develop 5x4" film, but for now I plan to conduct initial tests with that medium format back.

It has no instructions with it, its not THAT complex, i'll have a fiddle with it more later, for now could someone with experience of these horseman backs tell me how its going to work.. loading the film should be fair enough, i can see where the film will be placed for exposure, how am i going to protect this film from the light when its not mounted on the camera... with it on the camera, how do i compose the image that I plan to shoot with it on the 5x4" screen?

Beyond that, i'm not sure whether i can leave the lens board on the camera when i try to fold it away.. anyone know if this is possible with the shen hao camera, and that 150mm lens?

That's it for now.. I'm lacking a focusing black out cloth or whatever, something i'll need to rectify, initial test shots will be done at home anyways where i can use a towel hopefully.

Your help is very much appreciated by this large format newbie.

Cheers

[Walter Calahan]

Get a dark cloth.

Try folding the camera with the lens on slowly. If it doesn't work, don't do it. Remove lens and lens board (keep lens and lens board together) from camera and store separately.

The film holders should always have the dark slide in place, except when making the exposure. You compose the image on the ground glass without the film holder in place.

Don't be afraid to make lots of mistakes. That's how we all learn.

The most important thing: have fun.

[jimbobuk]

Thanks, I will be getting a dark cloth... not quite sure how it attaches to the camera mind?

Ohh one last huge oversight, though i'm kind of aware that this starts to become off topic for this forum.

I don't have a light meter.. I plan to get one, a good one, that does spot metering and incoming light through a diffuser (whatever the correct term for that is).. I am not sure if the exposure for the large format camera will need to be different than a "normal" exposure from a light meter but I was planning to use one of my other cameras, compose roughly the same frame and use its exposure reading as a basis, or even as the exact exposure to do if i've locked the aperture to the same as i'll use on the lens in aperture priority mode. Is this even possible, i realise its not ideal but i'd rather save and get a good light meter, plus i'd rather not spend any more money right now.

Any pointers on doing this?

Cheers, again.

[jimbobuk]

I have some slides.. the same kind as you put sheet film inside? so one of these attaches to the rollfilm back, and then you put these combined into the camera? I take it i will have to totally remove the ground glass focusing screen to do this?

As for composing on the screen for the back, is it by trial and error that i should line up where on the focusing screen lines up with where on the back, I'd rather be able to compose the frame with some accuracy, i'm sure it'll become more obvious when I actually start trying with the equipment.

[Ralph Barker]

Using a 35mm camera's meter is better than nothing, but won't help in the long run as to fine-tuning your metering technique and settings with a good handheld meter. There have been a couple of threads on the subject which you should be able to find using the search function.

Similarly, there have been numerous discussions of hand-held meters that may help you select one. I use an older Sekonic L-508 that does zoom-spot reflected readings and incident (the white dome) readings for both ambient and electronic flash. IMHO, investing in a good, versatile meter is, in the long run, worth spending the extra bucks.

[jimbobuk]

A quick look at the root of the site and i've come across the BLACKJACKET cloth... looks pretty neat, not too much money.. Their site says the shen hao has a larger back and so getting 40" or the one for the 5x7" is best.. I'm assuming although the neck is this big that you can tighten with the elastic and get it back down to a typical 5x4" back size..

Anyone used these.. anyone suggest a better sub-forum to put this topic under?

Cheers

[jimbobuk]

Thanks guys.. I'm going to go and read up in the book now, but as an aside using a 35mm or digital camera's meter set to the same aperture as i choose to set the large format lens to will result in a shutter speed i can use on the large format camera and get a passibly exposed picture on a negative with its increased lattitude?

I agree I will get a good meter, its just new, the really good ones are rather expensive.. if some slightly older, 2nd hand ones come down a lot i'll get one sooner rather than later.

Anyways thanks.. off to read up, and roughly practice :)

[Ted Harris]

The Black Jacket is good, so is the BTZS hood sold by the View Camera Store. A plain old darkcloth that you just drape over the rear of the camera works fine too but is hevier and bulkier than either of the first two.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Hi there,

"As for composing on the screen for the back, is it by trial and error that i should line up where on the focusing screen lines up with where on the back, I'd rather be able to compose the frame with some accuracy, i'm sure it'll become more obvious when I actually start trying with the equipment."

If your ground glass does not have the roll film format marked, they ( camera store, on-line, ebay) do make a removeable clear acetate film with the lines that mounts to the outside of the glass.

Just mount the roll film holder into the back, remove the entire back, turn it up-side down and measure the film gate in the roll film holder to see if it is centered. Turn it over, remove the roll film and install the ground glass, measure and mount the acetate, OR you could just use pencil lines on the outside of the ground glass, OR a card stock/poster paper mask that matches, very easy to make and non-messy.

Good luck and great fun with it.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Hi there,

"As for composing on the screen for the back, is it by trial and error that i should line up where on the focusing screen lines up with where on the back, I'd rather be able to compose the frame with some accuracy, i'm sure it'll become more obvious when I actually start trying with the equipment."

If your ground glass does not have the roll film format marked, they ( camera store, on-line, ebay) do make a removeable clear acetate film with the lines that mounts to the outside of the glass.

Just mount the roll film holder into the back, remove the entire back, turn it up-side down and measure the film gate in the roll film holder to see if it is centered. Turn it over, remove the roll film and install the ground glass, measure and mount the acetate, OR you could just use pencil lines on the outside of the ground glass, OR a card stock/poster paper mask that matches, very easy to make and non-messy.

Good luck and great fun with it.

[Brian Ellis]

"I'll try to take some pictures so perhaps people can tell me if for example the lens is a modern design or an old one, whether its rated as reasonable or a poor performer.. it was quite cheap and I was keen to not spend too much more as the combined costs were higher than i'd have liked to have spent."

The lens is an old one, which doesn't mean it's a bad lens just that it's old. The sequence of the Symmar line from Schneider is Symmar, Symmar S, APO Symmar, and the current Symmar L line or whatever exactly they call it. So your lens is four generations back. But that's o.k., the changes Schneider made from one model to the next were relatively minor. Your lens is probably single coated rather than multi, which is no big deal it might just be a little more susceptible to flare than if it was multi-coated. It's also not an APO lens but that's no big deal either IMHO. It might be slightly softer than newer versions but that likely won't be noticeable unless you get into prints larger than 11x14 or so. The obvious course of action is to make some photographs and see how the negatives look. For testing purposes I'd photograph something flat like a newspaper tacked to a wall so you don't get inadequate depth of field confused with a lack of sharpness.

The main problem with old lenses often isn't the lens itself, it's the shutter. Since they're mechanical there's lots of things that can go wrong over the years. If there's a local camera repair shop that you trust, and if your initial tests indicate that the lens is a decent performer, I'd suggest that you ask the repair place to check the shutter speeds for accuracy and consistency and also to check it for any other problems.

[Mark Pope]

Thanks, I will be getting a dark cloth... not quite sure how it attaches to the camera mind?


I use a large bulldog clip to attach my darkcloth to the leather handle. I use another one to make a sort of tube, which really helps to get a brighter image.

HTH

Cheers

[jimbobuk]

Ok tonight i finally had chance to really just play with it and see what controls allowed what movements to happen, i feel a lot happier that i know what most things let me do now..

I also had chance to really see how the ground glass screen fitted in, and then how the medium format back would attach.. it was clear then where the extra ridge on the screen would correspond to the total edge of the medium format back so placing these together i've seen where the MF negative is on the screen.. i've stuck some white post it note strips to kind of show this frame and I think i'd be happy enough to give it a go.

The only thing that its made me notice is that the medium format back goes with the panoramic longest edge of the negative held vertical rather than what i'd have expected, horizontal.

I was wondering if its possible that the back of the camera can be twisted to make this go horizontal, or do i have to rely on my tripod holding the camera on its side to shoot with this holder in this way.. my tripod does hold it but its obviously stressing things a lot more than when the camera is sitting on top of the tripod..

Some cameras can rotate the back like this can't they, is this Shen Hao one of them?

Cheers

[Kirk Fry]

Loupe de loupe, don't leave home with out one. (or two)

K

[Brian Ellis]

"I was wondering if its possible that the back of the camera can be twisted to make this go horizontal, or do i have to rely on my tripod holding the camera on its side to shoot with this holder in this way."

I've never used your camera or roll film holder and perhaps I'm misunderstanding your question but you place the camera itself on the tripod in the same position every time. You only need to position the camera back either vertically or horizontally in order to make vertical or horizontal photographs, i.e. there's no need to put the camera on it's side. To switch from one orientation to the other with the Shen Hao you don't twist the back, you remove the back from the camera and then put it back on in the orientation you want. Then when you use the roll film holder it will be inserted in either a vertical or horizontal position depending on how you have the back oriented.

[jimbobuk]

Ahh, cheers brian.. there was one last control, the sliders that lock the entire back into position.. thats now rotated and all my woes are gone... great.

I'm about to go and shoot a test roll of medium format through it, so hopefully should have it developed by the end of the day.. hope it all works.

The only thing left I dont fully get is how to accurately measure the focal length setting of the front standard from the rear standard.. the base has a cm ruler on each edge but it starts from the front standard.. looking at the back you can't quite see where it finishes but also the finishing of the base looks to be slightly further forward from where the ground glass, and presumably where the film will rest.. Any tips on this??

For completeness i took some pictures of the camera and lens here

http://flickr.com/photos/jimbobuk/sets/72157594252276981/

Frustratingly the ones i took looking down showing the rulers i didn't put online as they were a bit blurred from hand holding in low light, low ISO..

[Richard Kelham]

The lens is an old one, which doesn't mean it's a bad lens just that it's old.



Your lens was made in May/June 1970 (probably). By the standards of this forum that's almost new!

[jimbobuk]

Thanks Richard.. were you able to figure that out by the serial numbers in my pics of the lens.. again i've realised it would have been better to be square on to get that kind of information across.

Anyone got any pointers on how i can use the rulers on the base of the camera to work out the current lens to film distance.. what with the fact that the front standard can slide back along the base from the standard position on the end of the rails, and also that then the rails themselves can move relative to the base, plus after closer looking the glass of the back is definitely further off the back of the camera than the ruler at the botom that I can't quite read the final numbers of anyway as they're underneath the back.

I've took my first roll of medium format and developed it, its drying now... we'll see how they turn out, at a glance they look ok... i did mess up my first ever exposure by forgetting to close the lens from preview mode, so i open the slide get ready to press the shutter and then remember that the lens is still open flooding the neg for 10s of seconds when it only wanted an exposure of 1/10th sec.

Ohh and finally the lens has one little slider that the previous owner has taped over with a thin sliver of electrical rubber tape... its got a red x and an M as its two settings and it was set to the red X when i recieved it, which is where its still set.. what does this mean?

Cheers guys.. it was a bit slow doing it all but i did enjoy it, felt like i didn't have enough hands to do some of the movements whilst still being under the cloth looking at the screen to see the adjustments take effect.. loosening one bolt and then a final bolt whilst holding on to the front if you were doing drop for example seemed the best solution. I also noticed that after putting front tilt on that the screen only became easy to see when viewing certain points off centre, i guess this is just the direction of the incoming light forcing you to be the opposite direction to it so you can see it?

I'll get the photos online when i can, i'll be happy if it all worked :)

[Jim Jones]

The slider with X and M is the flash sync selector. X is for electronic flash, M is for medium delay flashbulbs.

[jimbobuk]

Thanks a lot Jim, so basically for all the shots i'll ever take its not ever going to effect me (no plans to use flash)

I'm scanning my negatives now.. they've come out pretty well... there are some potential light leak marks on a few frames.. i am going to have to go through a few more rolls of film clearly.. I guess i'll try getting some C41 locally developed... i'm just wondering if the 1st frame i messed up with that flooded the frame with bright sunlight for 10s of seconds could have been enough to eluminate round the back of the holder and slightly spoil the next few frames?? Other than that whether i clipped the holder back together properly though the mark is a consistent stripe down the length of the film.. its gone by the last frame i think as well..

I may have to try using the orbital developer and get some 5x4" developed to see if its anything to do with the camera or just the roll film back.. i'm guessing the latter..

Pics will be online by tomorrow if someone could have a guess by looking at them.

Cheers.. was fun.. and the images look pretty good, not bad to say i just roughly metered with my EOS 3.

[jimbobuk]

Ok the pics are online here

http://flickr.com/photos/jimbobuk/sets/72157594253992034/

its quite clear where the anomaly is, any ideas if my suggestions sound plausible or whether something else could be amiss?

[Gordon Moat]

Well jimbobuk,

The pictures you posted help a great deal. I think you might find some specialized knowledge going over to Yahoo Groups, and signing up for the Shen Hao Users Group (SHUG). There are at least a couple members of SHUG with the old GJ45 model. The newer HXZ45A-II is different in many ways.

However, I can see a few things that might help you out. One is that the front lens standard in your photos is all the way down, which looks like the 3cm reading next to the dot on either side of the metal next to the lens board. If you look at the two knobs lined up either side of the front standard top edge of the lens board, you need to loosen those to raise the front standard. When you look at that scale, the 3cm to 0cm then back to 3cm is the centering indicator for rise. This corresponds to lens specifications, if you know the limit of rise of the lens. Schneider has some older information on their website, though off the top of my head I think you should be able to do plus or minus 2.5cm up or down off the zero mark (0cm).

Okay, the scale on the edges of the focus rail is another matter. You can sort of use that for lining up the lens standard at a given distance from the back standard. A good guess is the focal length of the lens, though in practice you might want to go slightly less than that. If you tilt forward or backward on either standard, sometimes a little more room can make focusing easier.

If the old marking system was done the same as the new marking system, then the starting mark is 0cm. Unfortunately, that is on the focus rail, but not taking the offset of the film into account. Seems to be near 2.5cm to 3cm range offset, without using a guage to measure it. So taking that into account, a 150mm lens should line up near the 11.5cm to 12cm mark. If you want to line up with a little more room for movements, then perhaps set the mark on the front standard near 11cm, or even closer to the back standard. Using your loupe, you can still get infinity focus, or any other focus distance.

So I hope that all made some sense. It is tougher to type this than to simply show people. I tend not to use the markings on the focus rail as exact science. What I do is just remember which lens should be near which mark when I first open up and set-up the camera, and that is about it. Perhaps if the distance was actually from the ground glass to the lens board, then I might use it differently. You still need to check with the loupe, whichever methods you use.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio

[Mark Pope]

Anyone got any pointers on how i can use the rulers on the base of the camera to work out the current lens to film distance..


Speaking as a relative newbie (into my third month as a LF user), I don't think you need to worry to much about measuring lens to film distance. What matters is that you can focus the lens accurately, which you do by means of the focusing screen. The measurement really only becomes an issue if you are going to do serious close-up photography.

FWIW, I slide the back of the camera forward when I use my wide angle lens (a 75mm) so that it removes the risk of the base of the camera appearing in the shot.

Cheers

[Ernest Purdum]

Regarding the back, there should be what we in the United States call a darkslide in place in your back. (In other countries, "dark slide" can mean a whole filmholder.) This prevents the film being exposed until you are ready to make the exposure,

Look at page 71 of Steve Simmons' book. The right hand picture shows the darkslide being pulled. If your holder doesn't have one, you will need to do something about it - perhaps cutting down a larger slide.

[jimbobuk]

Thanks for the info Gordon.. I may indeed have to join that yahoo group, thanks for the details..

Is my Shen Hao the HXZ45A-II one or the older GJ45 one.. its folded up but i didn't think there was anything on it to describe its type.. I assumed it was the HXZ45A-II one. (hmm after taking another look at it i can see now that it is the GJ model.. darn.. i'd really appreciate a description of the differences between the older and newer model, wonder whether i paid too much for it now)

Since taking those shots of the camera i realised the front rise/fall was off so i have been using it with it in the centre unless i've needed to use some rise/fall.. That adjustments ruler makes sense to me.

The rules on the base are confusing though for being 0cm at the front where the front standard naturally wants to be, going all the way back to 16cm or so at the standard position of the rear standard.. thanks for confirming the film plane having an extra bit on the back.. I've dabbled with it and as others recommend I've just been trying to use the focusing screen to set the adjustments.. its clear you need to pull the front standard back a bit for a 150mm lens to focus at infinity. I guess if i moved the back standard forwards then the cm ruler would make sense if the front standard was right on the front. I prefer moving the front back though i guess.. when i get wider lenses i'm sure it'll become something that i'll have to do more moving of the back forward.

Thanks a lot though Gordon that did indeed help, you can always just about get by :)

I took the camera out this afternoon/evening and took a few pictures.. i didn't have my camera of choice to meter with so there was a bit of voodoo required, we'll see if it worked out :) The whole strict jumping of shutter speed does make it difficult to exactly match the shutter speed another camera (or other light meter) reports.. what are the solutions to this other than just selecting the shutter speed closest to the one required? Do some shutters offer more flexability than a stop of shutter speed increment?

I have a cheap plastic 8x loupe that came with a darkroom starter kit.. I've been using this so far.. when required.. some objects i find it easy to see that they are focused, others its a little harder to see.. the loupe to be honest seems to make the patterning on the focusing screen more obvious which sometimes kind of gets in the way with looking at the image.. I need to be more fussy i think, especially when looking at this image i took

http://flickr.com/photos/jimbobuk/226538854/

where the lamp on the far right isn't that focused.. the problem i have is the difficulty in changing to the rollfilm back seems to jolt the position of the camera on the tripod and possibly the cameras settings slightly..

Today was my first experiment with trying to expose sheet film.. well hopefully anyways, i'm relying on the seller of the camera's description that those with white tabs have the loaded film described.. should really be putting them in my changing bag to see if by touch they seem to have film inside.. never mind if they didn't :)

After figuring out the dark slide fits behind the screen with the clip its on stretching to let it fit in i really liked the feeling of shooting with 5x4 compared to the extra hassle of changing the roll film holder (always struggling to get one of the latches down to secure it seems to be the biggest problem that takes the longer time and can rock the camera and tripod too much)

Ernest.. my roll film holder has a metal inserted dark slide to be removed, other than that I have standard slides that take 2 sheets of film...

I'm guessing its not important but a good idea to leave the slide slightly in the rollfilm back or standard slide so as to stop any light potentially getting in where the dark slide normally fits, i'm sure its got light tight fluff but can't hurt to have the slide still in as well just a cm or so??

Anyways i'll have to try and find a solution to getting slides sent away to be developed, and finish the exposures on the roll of rollfilm still in the holder.. may be a while now till I have the time to do any more fiddling..

It's been fun so far.. quite slow though, as i expected.. and i really need a bigger bag, and more practice :) oh also an assistant proves to be invaluable when out and about, wouldn't fancy having my head under the focusing cloth with my stuff next to me for anyone to just get whilst you can't see...

[Gordon Moat]

Hello Jimbobuk,

Yup . . . saw the GJ on the back plate of your camera. The rear standard seems to be the biggest difference to the HZX45A-II. You have rear swing through external control knobs, while on the HZX45A-II there is a centre lever to allow shift or swing (or both). Functionally that is a difference that some find useful, though in general the various front movements might be something you use more often. The HZX45A-II also has rear rise, and centred tilt; lots more knobs than your GJ45, though unless you find you need them I doubt you would miss the extra controls. The GJ45 should be easier to figure out and use.

The solution to your metering problem is a hand held light meter. Another solution would be a Polaroid back, so you can test the exposure on the Polaroid prior to exposing film. So while you are contemplating spending more money, the other thing to get is a loupe, something other than the little 8x you are now using. I use a TOYO 3.6x, which is really convenient, not too much magnification, and can be found for under $US 50. Seems that spending more money on these things is inevitable, though a good hand held meter and a dedicated large format loupe makes your life substantially easier. The cost savings avoiding wasting film would quickly pay for both those items.

I tend to shoot Quickload and Readyload films, which have a design that uses the packet sheath as a darkslide. On my Polaroid 405 back, the darkslide has a colour area when it is pulled clear of the film, so I pull it just that far, and leave the long edge hanging out of the holder. Basically it takes me less time to do that than to try to fit the darkslide back into the holder every time I want to use that back.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
http://www.allgstudio.com