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alec4444
24-Aug-2006, 17:45
Ok, so I purchased the Wisner 11x14 Tech Field I mentioned in another post, and essentially, it came with nothing. Having no other LF stuff, I'm building this system from scratch.

Found a vendor that sold a bunch of Wisner accessories, so I dropped him a line asking if I could visit his store sometime. (BTW, I'm purposefully leaving out the name, because he didn't really do anything wrong, and I don't want to hurt his business. This is for entertainment purposes only.) In my email, I mentioned that I had just purchased this Wisner Tech Field camera and I needed lensboards, ground glass protector, tripod, tripod head, film holders, focusing cloth, changing tent, etc.. I wanted to know his location & hours.

Get back this response, which read something like, "Can help you out with most of that stuff except for the filmholders....yadda yadda yadda...I started out
as a Wisner dealer but dropped them because the cameras were so poorly
made and the holders worse.....yadda yadda yadda...Here are my store hours please feel free to stop in."

That statement stuck out at me like it does when it's bold.... "Hi, potential customer. I'd be happy to sell you hundreds of dollars worth of stuff. BTW, the camera you just told me you bought sucks." Why would this person say that? I wrote back, and in a friendly way, and called him on it:

"As a sidenote, while you're certainly entitled to your personal opinions, that's probably not something you'll want to repeat to a potential customer who's just told you they bought a Wisner camera. =)"

I received back a long rant, an excerpt of which is:
"I believe in honesty and simply wanted you to think twice before putting a lot more money into the camera. I COULD CARE LESS IF I SELL OR DON'T SELL A FEW LENSBOARDS. What is important to me is integrity, and that the large format customer has the best possible experience."

<Sigh>

What this poor soul doesn't realize is that if the camera I bought truly is a piece of crap and doesn't work, I'm sure as heck not going to go after the guy that sold me the tripod. Or the lensboard. Or the changing bag. I've done my research on Ron, and his cameras. I came to my own conclusions about his equipment. Do I have to be castrated for my choice in cameras, or can he just sell me the g*d damn accessories?!

What do you think?
--A

Note to the moderator -- Hope this isn't in the wrong area, feel free to move it if it is.

Caroline Matthews
24-Aug-2006, 18:10
i've had peculiar dealing with Bruce also.

Mike Boden
24-Aug-2006, 18:37
From a business standpoint, the way this guy responded to you really doesn't make much sense. I understand integrity and all, but he's not the one who sold you the camera. So it's really weird. In a subtle way, he disrespected you by saying you made a poor choice in a camera purchase.

If he really wanted to be honest and show integrity while appeasing a potential customer, I'd have suggested that he broach the subject in a different way. Moreso in a manner where he asks you what you think of the camera and so on. Instead of blatantly saying the camera sucks, he could have engaged in an intelligent conversation about the pros and cons of the camera, thereby showing that he's a camera enthusiast, by validating his experience in the craft, and by starting to build a real relationship with you.

Sounds like this could be his loss, not yours. There are several other avenues to track down what you need. Good luck!

Brian Ellis
24-Aug-2006, 18:47
I don't get the funny part. Sounds like a very honest dealer to me, maybe too honest for his own good but honest nonetheless. I don't think his concern is that you'd come after him if there are problems with the camera just because he sold you a tripod or holder. It seems to me his point is that you shouldn't be sinking more money (e.g. for film holders) into a piece of equipment that he thinks (rightly or wrongly) is going to give you problems.

Jim Ewins
24-Aug-2006, 18:52
I'd like to know who that dealer is. He doesn't use good judgement and appears to be more concerned with CYA than helping a fellow photographer.

alec4444
24-Aug-2006, 19:03
I don't get the funny part. Sounds like a very honest dealer to me, maybe too honest for his own good but honest nonetheless. I don't think his concern is that you'd come after him if there are problems with the camera just because he sold you a tripod or holder. It seems to me his point is that you shouldn't be sinking more money (e.g. for film holders) into a piece of equipment that he thinks (rightly or wrongly) is going to give you problems.

In an odd way I could see that being a noble intent, but then he shouldn't stock Wisner parts if he's going to tell Wisner users that their camera is junk. That to me is the funny part. And besides, he couldn't even sell me the filmholders, which (along with most of the accessories I named) can be used on any other 11x14 camera...

--A

BrianShaw
24-Aug-2006, 19:20
He (the unknown dealer) doesn't use good judgement and appears to be more concerned with CYA than helping a fellow photographer.
It's always disconcerting to hear that something you or I own isn't highly regarded. But let the man have his opinion. Maybe he's right. Maybe he really is trying ot help a fellow photographer.

Many years ago I went to the shop of a dealer who was well known to be a real grouch. He had a tripod I wanted. When I told him I wanted to buy it he told me that it was a piece of junk and I'd regret the purchase. Then he offered me an alternative... at twice the price. My first instinct was to tell him to get bent and leave. But I told him I wanted what I asked for, so he sold it to me and muttered something like "no return, no refund, no exchange"... but it was in German so it sounded much more polite htan my assumption of the translation. It ends up he was right... after using hte tripod for a while I not only regretted the purchase (yes, it really was a piece of junk) but I went back and paid twice the price to get the better tripod. It ends up that the old grump wasn't trying to "CYA" but really was trying to help a fellow photographer. It's just that he had more experience than did I!

If this dealer has what you want, why not go there, let whatever he says go in one ear and out the other, and buy whatever you think/know is what you want.

Oren Grad
24-Aug-2006, 19:42
Sounds like Bruce Cahn:

http://brucescameras.com/index.html
http://reviews.ebay.com/LARGE-FORMAT-FIELD-CAMERA-GUIDE_W0QQugidZ10000000000097462?ssPageName=BUYGD:CAT:-1:LISTINGS:1

Lee Hamiel
24-Aug-2006, 19:46
As a business owner - I would never correspond in such a manner.

I would perhaps ask if they wanted advice as to the system they just bought, etc. .

Bruce's sells what they also call Wisner lensboards but one has to read the fine print as to whether or not they are original - he will state when it's an original - what I would like is some pics of what I might buy from him - anything over several hundred dollars at least.

My feeling is that he's frustrated as a seller trying to get Wisner to provide product which is an old story by now - however - he should not degrade what you wish to buy - then why sell it at all? Maybe he's trying to work you into buying a Lotus or Master Technika ...

I know I am assuming who this is but I am certain as someone else mentioned.

I will say that I have bought film from him & had no problems with a quick & easy delivery.

BrianShaw
24-Aug-2006, 19:56
Weird web site. I think I need to make an appointment with my opthamologist now to have my vision prescription increased.

If, indeed, this is the "un-named vendor", have a little fun and ask him about htis, from the web site:

"Our credo: 1) Bruce won’t sell anything he wouldn’t use himself"

Frank Petronio
24-Aug-2006, 19:57
I don't know him but I think he is being honest and straight in a very New York sort of way. Once you get past the gruffness of some of these NYC types they are really wonderful people, so give him a chance.

But no, it probably would get someone fired from a real sales job!

BrianShaw
24-Aug-2006, 20:03
... he is being honest and straight in a very New York sort of way. Once you get past the gruffness of some of these NYC types they are really wonderful people, so give him a chance.

I just LOVE the way New Yorkers keep repeating this mantra. I've been on this earth quite a while now and I still can't understand it. Perhaps I need some sort of "immersion therapy" in the Big Apple.

Frank Petronio
24-Aug-2006, 20:07
I live on a farm on the other end of the state -- 350 miles from NYC -- and I just LOVE the way everyone from the West Coast assumes that I am a NYC dweller because my name has a few vowels and my state happens to be New York.

NYC people may be gruff. But in LA they shoot you if you drive too slow on the freeway. And all the women have fake boobs there. LOL ;)

BrianShaw
24-Aug-2006, 20:14
But in LA they shoot you if you drive too slow on the freeway. And all the women have fake boobs there. LOL ;)
Oh... sorry. If I thought that was you I would have just honked. And, please, stop talking about my wife like that... unless there is something you know that I don't. :)

And sorry about the mistaken identity... but I was making that assumption. Dumb me! BTW, I just picked up my Aunt from the airport. She's from Batavia. Relative or not, I've always liked folks from that part of NY state!

Frank Petronio
24-Aug-2006, 20:23
LOL I was there yesterday. Photographed a woman with... fake boobs.

alec4444
24-Aug-2006, 21:08
I don't know him but I think he is being honest and straight in a very New York sort of way. Once you get past the gruffness of some of these NYC types they are really wonderful people, so give him a chance.

But no, it probably would get someone fired from a real sales job!

Frank, I live in NYC and I deal with the "NYC Types" everyday. Hell, I even get cranky if I don't have my coffee in hand 30 secs after I order it. This is just plain wierd. In fact, I'm finding a few odd vendors when it comes to LF equipment. There's some good ones out there too, no doubt. But this isn't the medium format world I've gotten so accustomed to! =)

--A

Brian Vuillemenot
24-Aug-2006, 21:39
I think some people just have a personal vendetta against Ron Wisner. I agree that it is very unprofessional for this dealer to be badmouthing Wisner cameras, particularly after you've allready bought yours. Although some people on this forum have mentioned that their Wisner cameras have had poor quality control, I have been very happy with mine.

Capocheny
24-Aug-2006, 21:45
Alec,

Lo and behold... there ARE lf photographers with detective skills here! :)

Cheers




i've had peculiar dealing with Bruce also.

Doug Dolde
24-Aug-2006, 22:38
But in LA they shoot you if you drive too slow on the freeway. And all the women have fake boobs there. LOL ;)

I had a girlfriend in LA once who had breast implants. Might of been fake but they sure were nice :)

JW Dewdney
24-Aug-2006, 23:20
Well, to me it just sounded like a combination of;

a) he probably got burned by Ron Wisner and probably had some residual anger.

b) he was just calling them as he saw them, which, I don't think you should take as being DISRESPECTED - consider it a sign of RESPECT. It's funny the way different people will have a different take on things. I don't think that, if I were a camera dealer, that I would say THAT - but I WOULD say it if you were wanting to buy it from my stock, and I believed it to be true. That, to me, is integrity.

addendum: I worked in a camera shop at the age of 19-21 or so - and I would deliberately tell people; "no - don't buy this one, it sucks. Buy THIS one - it'll be way more reliable, yadda yadda - but DO NOT get it here - here's a dealer downtown MUCH more reputable than WE are. They're much better with customer service, etc...

Richard Kelham
25-Aug-2006, 02:51
Well, to me it just sounded like a combination of;

a) he probably got burned by Ron Wisner and probably had some residual anger.

b) he was just calling them as he saw them


That's how I'd read it too, but then I'm from the other side of the Atlantic where we respect integrity and dislike fawning servile shop workers desperate to sell you anything, at any cost....

;-)

alec4444
25-Aug-2006, 08:21
Well, to me it just sounded like a combination of;

a) he probably got burned by Ron Wisner and probably had some residual anger.

b) he was just calling them as he saw them, which, I don't think you should take as being DISRESPECTED - consider it a sign of RESPECT....

Oh, let me clarify. I never saw it as disrespect. I may actually still buy stuff there. He is definitely angry with Ron and I'm sure it got personal. I was just.....taken back that he would tell me Wisner Cameras suck (and I'm paraphrasing, of course) after I told him I just bought one. What does he expect me to say to that? "Yeah man, they suck. Really hope I overpaid for it too...." Usually when people buy a big ticket item (camera, car, house) they're excited about it. So don't throw cold water in their face! :eek:


addendum: I worked in a camera shop at the age of 19-21 or so - and I would deliberately tell people; "no - don't buy this one, it sucks. Buy THIS one - it'll be way more reliable, yadda yadda - but DO NOT get it here - here's a dealer downtown MUCH more reputable than WE are. They're much better with customer service, etc...

Well THAT makes sense, you were advising people before they bought the camera! Ah well, to each his own. Again, if a particular product makes you so mad then you probably shouldn't carry accessories for it.

"Hi, I'd like to buy that Wisner lens board from you"
"Oh, ok. I can sell it to you, but first let me tell you how much your camera SUCKS!"

LOL. --A

Kerry L. Thalmann
25-Aug-2006, 11:00
In my email, I mentioned that I had just purchased this Wisner Tech Field camera and I needed lensboards, ground glass protector, tripod, tripod head, film holders, focusing cloth, changing tent, etc.. I wanted to know his location & hours.

Get back this response, which read something like, "Can help you out with most of that stuff except for the filmholders....yadda yadda yadda...I started out
as a Wisner dealer but dropped them because the cameras were so poorly
made and the holders worse.....yadda yadda yadda...Here are my store hours please feel free to stop in.

I realize I'm coming in late to this discussion, but I have a slightly different take on your initial exchange. You called stating you were looking for, among other things, film holders for your new 11x14 Wisner. He responded by telling you he is no longer a Wisner dealer "because the cameras were so poorly made and the holders worse". You interpretted his response as him telling you your camera "sucks" (your words, not his - did he ever actually say "your camera sucks"?). To me it sounds like he was just explaining why he can't supply film holders for your camera and giving you some friendly advice to avoid buying Wisner holders (from him or anywhere else) due to problems he's experienced reguarding their quality.

We're not getting both sides of the conversation, and the side we are getting is your interpretation (through paraphrasing) of what was actualy said. I'm not saying you are deliberately slanting the converation, just that you may have misunderstood his intent. Since I wasn't privy to the actual converation, it's hard to say for sure, but I don't think his intent was to tell you your camera sucks, just to advise you against buying additional products (film holders) that may be a source of problems.

Of course, I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time) and I've had no personal experience with the dealer in question. It just seemed like once you heard what you interpretted as him saying "your camera sucks" (again, your words, not his) that you may have missed the rest of his message and misunderstood his intentions. Or, maybe not. I'm just trying to look at the initial exchange from a different perspective.

Given the number of online postings on the topic, obviously there have been some Wisner customers that have had problems with their cameras (although delivery issues seem to be the most consistant complaint). On the other hand, there are many Wisner cameras out there that have provided their owners years of reliable service. I had a 4x5/4x10 Wisner Technical Field Camera back in the mid-1990s and never had a hint of a problem with the camera (the Mido II holders were another issue, but they weren't made by Wisner). So, I wouldn't interpret one dealer dropping Wisner as an indictment that all Wisner cameras "suck" (your words, not mine), because obviously, they don't. If you got a good one, no need to worry about what others think. Just go out and make some beautiful photographs start enjoying your new camera (once you get some holders, tripod, etc.).

Kerry

Robert Skeoch
25-Aug-2006, 13:05
It just doesn't happen in New York.

I went with my daughter today to buy a new pair of skates. (You can tell I live in Canada because we're buying new skates in Aug)
The first thing the sales kid said was "I'm not selling you Mission skates, they're garbage."
My daughter and I both thought it was kind of funny since the shelves were full of Mission skates.
As it turned out we bought another brand and the kid turned out to be a great salesguy with a lot of insiders information.

Now about the camera. I don't sell Wisner's, but I own two.
A lot of people have a real hate-on for the stuff but I've always enjoyed using them and have had little trouble with the gear.

I hope you really enjoy the camera and get some great shots.

Now if you need to get tripods, film, dark-cloths, changing tents, tripod heads, or simple advice you can contact me or check out my site.

-rob skeoch
www.bigcameraworkshops.com

PS. and is it true about ALL the women in LA. This would be out of my area of expertise but someone must know.

BrianShaw
25-Aug-2006, 16:09
PS. and is it true about ALL the women in LA. This would be out of my area of expertise but someone must know.
No, it isn't. Might be true for a lot of them, but definitely not ALL of them. It seems income dependent - more of it seems to occur on the extremes of the income scale. But it's not just breast implants... it's facelifts, tummy-tucks, etc.. but these are mostly high-ticket items so only the "rich" seem to go for them And it seems like the men are getting into this more and more -- chin implants, pec implants, hair implants, etc. For both genders there seems to also be a big attraction to laser hair removal... from different parts of the body, I assume. Now that the mystique is gone, won't you plan a vacation visit to confirm these interesting facts?

Jorge Gasteazoro
25-Aug-2006, 16:35
addendum: I worked in a camera shop at the age of 19-21 or so - and I would deliberately tell people; "no - don't buy this one, it sucks. Buy THIS one - it'll be way more reliable, yadda yadda - but DO NOT get it here - here's a dealer downtown MUCH more reputable than WE are. They're much better with customer service, etc...

I bet you did not work long there...... :)

JW Dewdney
25-Aug-2006, 16:36
Oh, let me clarify. I never saw it as disrespect. I may actually still buy stuff there. He is definitely angry with Ron and I'm sure it got personal. I was just.....taken back that he would tell me Wisner Cameras suck (and I'm paraphrasing, of course) after I told him I just bought one. What does he expect me to say to that? "Yeah man, they suck. Really hope I overpaid for it too...." Usually when people buy a big ticket item (camera, car, house) they're excited about it. So don't throw cold water in their face! :eek:

Well THAT makes sense, you were advising people before they bought the camera! Ah well, to each his own. Again, if a particular product makes you so mad then you probably shouldn't carry accessories for it.

"Hi, I'd like to buy that Wisner lens board from you"
"Oh, ok. I can sell it to you, but first let me tell you how much your camera SUCKS!"

LOL. --A

someone else saw that as disrespect - I think it was one of the first respondents. It may be a reasonable thing to say, perhaps - though kind of a bit insensitive in that context.

It reminds me of buying a large, expensive copy camera at one of the big NYC photo houses, once (can't remember if it was adorama or b&h or what...) - but I was joking about how difficult it was going to be to get on the subway as a segueway into asking them if they had any means of delivery, to which the salesman said in that uniquely NYC gruff way "WHAT - YOU TRYING TO BE FUNNY??!!...". To each their own I guess...

JW Dewdney
25-Aug-2006, 16:39
I bet you did not work long there...... :)

Well, one might think so - from hearing that story in certain contexts. I actually ended up getting awards (no joke, Jorge!) for having the highest sales in ontario (the province, in canada, where I used to live and was raised) of maybe a couple hundred stores. I think there's a good lesson there. I think people really appreciate honesty sometimes. It can sometimes be rewarded more than self-serving behavior.

Jorge Gasteazoro
25-Aug-2006, 17:01
I actually ended up getting awards (no joke, Jorge!) for having the highest sales in ontario

Where these awards from the store you worked in or the one you sent the customers to?.... :)

JW Dewdney
25-Aug-2006, 17:08
Where these awards from the store you worked in or the one you sent the customers to?.... :)

LOL!
Only in Canada would that work maybe...!

Brian Ellis
25-Aug-2006, 20:23
"I think some people just have a personal vendetta against Ron Wisner."

Yeah, people are funny that way. They tend to develop a personal vendetta against someone who takes thousands of dollars from them and then doesn't deliver the item purchased for years and years, meanwhile ignoring their email inquiries, phone calls, and leave-words (or promising that something is in the mail or about to be put in the mail when it's not). And isn't it odd that nobody seems to develop these personal vendettas against people like Keith Canham or Dick Phillips?

Brian Vuillemenot
25-Aug-2006, 21:18
"I think some people just have a personal vendetta against Ron Wisner."

Yeah, people are funny that way. They tend to develop a personal vendetta against someone who takes thousands of dollars from them and then doesn't deliver the item purchased for years and years, meanwhile ignoring their email inquiries, phone calls, and leave-words (or promising that something is in the mail or about to be put in the mail when it's not). And isn't it odd that nobody seems to develop these personal vendettas against people like Keith Canham or Dick Phillips?

Yes, that's certainly true, but it does not apply to the original poster of this thread. He allready had his Wisner, from a second hand source, and had no negative dealings with Ron Wisner, so it was in poor taste for the seller to make that comment. The fact that many people have received poor service from Ron Wisner does not make all of his cameras pieces of crap. I think the camera seller would get more business if he concentrated on promoting cameras that he likes rather than bad mouthing cameras that he doesn't.

Joe_6286
26-Aug-2006, 13:09
I have a feeling (could be totally wrong) that the store owner ommitted saying Wisner's RECENT cameras were poor (or something to that effect), meaning his own experience as a dealer yielded far too many quality problems. That would or would not apply to the particular camera you had purchased.

Here's where I'm coming from: several years ago (or was it 'many', the memory tends to fade a bit:-), before Wisner got really popular, I purchased a 4x5 from him that was truly superb in every way. I eventually sold it because I dropped out of large format for awhile, and a couple of years or so later, after demand for his cameras had increased significantly, I bought another camera from him, and it was like totally downgraded version - poor quality control, fit and finish not as good, etc. I sold it after having the factory bring it up to being acceptable. I thought it was an exception and decided to go into 8x10 and ordered one from Ron with a nice deposit. I waited forever and a day, finally requested money or merchandise back as a refund for my deposity, got the runaround for several months, but finally got 'satisfaction'.

My personal conclusion is, when given time, Ron Wisner, himself, can make truly superb cameras. He is an artist and suberp crafstman. He is not suited to run a business, as shown by many experiences other customers have posted on various internet forums. He business got popular and some of his employees did not make the cameras as well as they should have been made, in some cases. Some of his dealers, including probably the dealer in question, suffered because of having to deal with the inconsisten QC and poor delivery estimates and other business junk from the Wisner co.

I think the dealer in question should be COMMENDED for giving his honest expression of his experience to a customer, intended for the customer's benefit, so the customer has a little more information to make a decision. The risk is that the information could be misleading or misinterpreted or incomplete, but my preference is to have more information than less, to add to info gathered from other sources.

Jim Rice
17-Sep-2006, 13:39
My 4x5" Tech was as close to a perfect camera as I have ever used. I hate what Ron has done as much as anyone, but in his heyday he made a fine damn camera.