Ilford fiber B&W paper for Lightjet

[Bruce Watson]

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/pressroom/latest.asp

Now isn't this interesting? All the control of a digital workflow, resulting in a photopaper print on Ilford Gallerie FB paper.

I wonder when my lab will get some in???

[Eric Leppanen]

Certainly this is an interesting announcement. Ilford was also reportedly evaluating an LED-based digital enlarger, which would use standard B&W papers to generate prints. Presumably this new GALERIE FB DIGITAL paper will not work with LED-based printers (IIRC the lasers in laser-based digital printers generate more power than LED's), so it will be interesting to see whether this product supersedes the LED enlarger approach (or perhaps Ilford will ultimately do both). We shall see!

In the meantime, let's get some test prints to see how well this stuff works! How about some genuine silver gelatine prints from your digital camera files, anybody?

[paul stimac]

Way cool.

>"has been undergoing rigorous testing by a select handful of labs in North America and Europe."

Anyone which labs they are talking about?

[leeturner]

A few Apug members went on a factory tour of Ilford a couple of months ago. The new "digital" FB paper was mentioned. A lot of the top photographers were requesting such a product as their iamges on traditional FB paper were fetching 3 to 4 times more than the same image on inkjet/digital paper.

The major plus for me is the continuation of Baryta based papers which will benefit both the digital and traditional printers.

[robc]

I applaud everything Ilford have done to keep B+W alive. Its nice to know that at least one major player is in for the duration however long that may be.

Now can someone tell me what needs to be different about a black and white paper for exposure by a lightjet or any other laser printer. I ask because as far as I was aware, printing to B+W paper has always been possible on these machines providing they are setup correctly for the paper. In other words, I think this is more about pushing an existing product for use on modern output equipment.

[Bruce Watson]

Now can someone tell me what needs to be different about a black and white paper for exposure by a lightjet or any other laser printer. I ask because as far as I was aware, printing to B+W paper has always been possible on these machines providing they are setup correctly for the paper. In other words, I think this is more about pushing an existing product for use on modern output equipment.
My understanding, limited as it might be, is that existing papers weren't sensitive enough. The lasers are bright, but the spot size is small and it moves quickly. Each pixel must get its full exposure while the lasers are available to it. So basically, they had to raise the ISO significantly.

I'm sure there were other considerations as well. What I'm saying is, I'm pretty sure that this isn't rebranded enlarger paper.

[Ron Marshall]

Can this paper be developed in the same chemistry used for conventional Lightjet papers, or must it be done separately. If it is possible then it should keep the price down and be more widely available.

[bob carnie]

Hi Bruce and others

We here at elevatordigital.ca have been beta testing this new paper on our lambda for the last 4 months. .
We have been printing lambda fibres for almost 3 years.
Starting out with Agfa Classic at 200ppi on another labs lambda machine. We were very pleased with the results and decided to plunge into digital printing by purchasing our own Lambda which we run exclusively at 400ppi.

Imagine our dismay after investing heavily to find Agfa pulling the plug.
We met with two of the owners of Ilford Harman in March and to our great relief and pleasure were told Harmon/Ilford were going to produce this paper and offered us paper to Beta Test. We have tested it and can say it is an amazing niche product.


To answer its differences from lets say Agfa Classic, it is on the same weight of paper, it is basically Gallerie grade 4. The big difference is its extended red sensitivitey , there fore no safelight processing.

As you can imagine, Agfa we printed in grey scale, but with this new paper we print in rgb* much like printing panalure for colour negatives. This allows better tonal reproduction from digital capture .
This paper tones well and currently we use Dectol and may offer a warmer developer in the future.

Since all the colleges are graduating the young photographers totally literate in PS and digital capture , I think this is a brilliant move for Ilford and we hope to surf the wave of popularity of this unique niche product.

Hi Rez Scans of historical photographs or negs work equally well with this new workflow and we have been printing shows and portfolios and love the product.

[Bruce Watson]

Can this paper be developed in the same chemistry used for conventional Lightjet papers, or must it be done separately. If it is possible then it should keep the price down and be more widely available.
My understanding, such as it is, is that this new paper is not an RA-4 compatible paper. It's processed just like you would process a B&W print in your own darkroom.

IIRC, the image of an RA-4 print is formed by dyes, color or monochrome. This is a silver gelatin paper - the image is formed by metalic silver just like the B&W prints from a "normal" darkroom.

And I believe that you are right about processing being a stumbling block for acceptance. OTOH, we've had B&W RA-4 papers for years and they haven't really ever been accepted, because they aren't silver gelatin papers. If it was easy, it would have been done years ago...

[Bruce Watson]

Hi Rez Scans of historical photographs or negs work equally well with this new workflow and we have been printing shows and portfolios and love the product.
Any schedule for making this available? Any pricing?

And how do you process the paper if it's not giving away any trade secrets ;-)

[bob carnie]

Hi Bruce

Pricing is online elevatordigital.ca,

Re , how we do it,

You will find some labs will purchase roller transport machines , $120K and above , we will not .
As we are a very custom lab working closely with artists, our mandate is less prints but very well done to our clients expectations that they have been getting from us with our traditional enlarger based prints.
We print 3min dectol, 30 second stop, 2 min first fix, 2 min second fix, wash, hypoclear and final wash as we normally would with traditional prints. Toning is extra.
We have been doing this for awhile now and have some tricks up our sleeves to be able to comfortably show print . I can say our methodology is faster now than when we started but as a small craft shop. *both owners work on your files and Prints* we do not have to crank our volumes of fibre prints to make a good day.

We do colour printing , inkjet and cibachrome that help pay the bills.
I hope I haven't been too evasive ,

[Mike Boden]

This sounds exciting, and I'm looking forward to seeing results.

I just got off the phone with Elevator Digital and I'm gonna send them a file to get printed probably next week. I asked about a printer profile and they said that there isn't one for me to use. Instead, their RIP will handle any adjustments necessary. We'll see about this. I would feel a lot more comfortable with a profile that I can soft proof in the same way that I've been doing for color Lightjet prints locally at A&I.

At any rate, I spoke with Kevin at Elevator Digital (http://elevatordigital.ca/) and he said that they've been printing on fiber with the Lambda for a couple years now, but with Agfa paper. The problem is that that paper has been discontinued. So after testing this new Ilford paper, they're moving forward with it, and they just recently put the info up on their website. If you go to their website, you'll see the announcement on the front page. Also, they have a price list (http://elevatordigital.ca/pdf/newprice0115.pdf) available. This ain't cheap!!! But I figure for those that want this type of print and don't have their own darkroom or the time to work in a traditional darkroom, it might be worth it.

Kevin also said that he can't see why this process wouldn't work with a Lightjet printer as well. They just haven't tested it yet. Also, he said the chemical processing is B&W based and not color based.

So if anyone else has any test prints made, please be sure to post your thoughts. I'll post mine if and when I do this.

[bob carnie]

Mike

Re: soft proofs , I do prefer to see a sample of what you want the print to look like.
We find this a valuable tool in matching prints to your vision. Please ftp the files and fedx the small proof.

As well, remember we can only print quality from quality files, its like anything else in printing, the original source is critical for print excellence.

Most of our current clients travel to our facility to get involved with us with the printing approval process. If one is doing a large project keep this in mind, riqourous testing and approvals are required to avoid lunchbag letdown.

We will work 7 days a week to accomodate anyones projects, but not for the next two weeks , I am going fishing.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Bob--just to confirm--are those prices Canadian dollars?

[bob carnie]

David

Yes , Canadian Dollars.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Thanks.

[poco]

"We will work 7 days a week to accomodate anyones projects"

I've only had limited work done by Bob at Elevator, but can attest to the fact he really does go the extra mile to work with the photographer to get the desired results. This is no ordinary lab. If the final print really matters to you, he's the guy to go to.

[Sal Santamaura]

...This ain't cheap!!!...In Canadian dollars, compared to the prices for fiber b&w prints at other labs, it sure is cheap!

[neil poulsen]

I hope this takes off. This could bring the quality of silver to the digitals. Anything that helps Ilford. Why grade 4, though??? I would have thought grade 3.

I heard the other day that silver use for photography has actually increased since digital was introduced. Does anyone have any solid data on this?

I wonder if profiles will be available for soft-proofing? Or, if there'll be an inkjet paper with similar characteristics, on which one could have a preliminary check on the final result. If it goes through a Lambda or Lightjet, prints won't be inexpensive.